Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee - Friday 15 March 2024, 10:00am - Feedback Tab - Start video at 1:20:56 - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee
Friday, 15th March 2024 at 10:00am

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Speaking:

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Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)

1 Apologies for absence

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Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council)
Cllr Harry McCarthy
Alison Gillespie, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Tom Hawley
Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Anna Watson
Cllr Sabiya Khan
Cllr Anna Watson
Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

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3 Possible exclusion of the press and public

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4 Minutes of the last meeting held on 26 January 2024

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Item 4 - TISC Minutes (26.1.24) DRAFT v4i

5 Chair's comments and update

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Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Andrew Pinnock
Cllr Anna Watson
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)

6 Affordable Housing

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Item 6 - Affordable Housing CLEARED

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Andrew Pinnock
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Anna Watson
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Sabiya Khan
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative)
Tom Hawley
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Tom Hawley
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Mr Daniel Klemm
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative)
Tom Hawley
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Joanne Dodds
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Dot Foster
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Dot Foster
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Mr Daniel Klemm
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Mr Daniel Klemm
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Hames
Tom Hawley
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Tom Hawley
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Dot Foster
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Dot Foster
Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)

7 Local transport plan 4

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Item 7- Local Transport Plan 4 CLEARED

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Anna Watson
Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Anna Watson
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Alison Gillespie, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Wallis
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Wallis
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Cllr Tony Hames
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)

8 Work Programme

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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

1 Apologies for absence

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:00

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:03

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:05

Good morning, everyone welcomed restaurants, Combined Authority here in Leeds, and this is the last transport and infrastructure meeting that this municipal year before we hit the elections.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Members here for their commitment to this committee. We are one of the only committees that's been core it, and thank you, Councillor Khanfar, assist us this morning in that, as we are all aware, public trust has been lost in recent years and scrutiny is really important tool to help rebuild that trust with the public. So I do appreciate your time, members and your commitment and offering the suggestions that you are the thoughts that you bring the questions you bring to officers. It is really valued. I'd like to welcome any members of the public. We haven't got any in the gallery, but there's anybody online

if you would like to look at the agenda pack.

if you pop, onto the West Yorkshire Combined Authority and look at today's date the 15th of March, you should be able to find all the information on that, and thank you for joining us okay for the benefit of anybody watching us online, I I think it'd be useful also just to go round the table and say who we are and where we're from so I'm Councillor Amanda Parsons Hull's from Calderdale and I chair this committee.

Councillor Andrew Pinnock from Kirk Leeds Council.

Councillor Dot Foster from Coulter,

Good morning Isa Wilson Leeds, Councillor

Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council) - 0:01:43

Good morning, Councillor Katie Brooks Little London and Woodhouse ward, which is here in Leeds.

Cllr Harry McCarthy - 0:01:49

Councillor Arron McCarthy can confine Martin Carthy's.

Alison Gillespie, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:52

Alison Gillespie had a place in environment policy at the West Yorkshire Combined Authority.

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:58

hi Rebecca Greenwood, head of housing at West, Yorkshire Combined Authority.

what an old Tom Holly head of affordable housing growth from homes, England.

Tom Hawley - 0:02:07

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative) - 0:02:10

morning old Tamsin Hart Jones, assistant regional director for Yorkshire for homes, England.

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:02:16

morning Andy Waller, chief executive of a huge church, but I'm here today's Chair of the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership.

Daniel claim from together housing I'm also here on behalf of the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership.

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:31

hello, I'm Helen Ellison, head of transport policy at Combined Authority.

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:36

and I'm Simon Warburton executive director for transport here.

Mark Thompson Councillor and Kirkley.

Cllr Tony Hames - 0:02:46

Johnny Holmes, Councillor from Wakefield, representing poverty, fact area.

severe Con Councillor from Bradford

and what's the Councillor from Bradford representing the Shipley ward?

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:03:01

Cllr Sabiya Khan - 0:03:03

Joanne Dodds, Councillor from Bradford

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:03:06

Councillor Wright, Scrutiny support Officer.

Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:08

category rooms could be scrapped.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:03:16

thank you, Members, and welcome them.

apologies Kelud what apologise for forgot.

Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:30

that position, Councillor David Merrett, Oliver Newton Jo Atkinson, Julie and Charlie Keith Tony Wallace, should be joining as soon as a substitute for Julian Medford.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:03:46

thank you, and Have we got any declarations of pecuniary interests members?

no okay, item 3, possible exclusion of press and public, but I think we've got any items that need to exclude and have were.

and item 4 meeting of the last week, sorry minutes of the last meeting held on the 26th of January members, any comments thereof.

are we all in agreement, it's a true and accurate record.

thank you,

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

3 Possible exclusion of the press and public

4 Minutes of the last meeting held on 26 January 2024

5 Chair's comments and update

OK, so item 5 chairs, comments and updates, you've all had e-mails on Scrutiny, prompt protocol and level for devolution.

the main headline yesterday you might have heard the Combined Authority in this very room.

with the Mayor alongside.

officers announced that we were going to be franchising, so the bus reform yeah yeah, it was, it was quite a money, monumental moment for the Combined Authority, the bus reform consultation report complete, was completed by an independent consultancy and it was used to help make this decision now members this document has been sent to us all on Wednesday.

it is 1,147 pages long, I do not have expected you to have read that okay.

I'm really great.

however, however, there is a, however, it does contain the strategic economic and the commercial case for franchising and in your transport scrutiny role,

I really would urge you to look at this document,

I know the decision has only just been made, but we do have the option, of course, to call it in, I'm not suggesting for any minute that we should be, but.

I do think that we should be looking at it, though I'm personally in favour of franchising our buses, as I'm sure many of you are here, but it is our job in this committee to make sure that we keep our eyes on the process, so if you could really have, I do urge you to look at this document. A colleague of mine popped it through ChatGPT last night because I was complaining that I would never be able to read it in time and some interesting stuff has come up so yeah. It'd be really good to air to bring this back

just give you the heads up, OK, so.

yeah, we're not going away love, no, we can't we haven't we can't really divulge into this third discussion today we have looked at bus franchising several times on this committee and but we do obviously, and we need to start looking at the next steps okay.

one of the other items that was discussed yesterday was the scrutiny protocol, and we had a working group on the 29th of January set up to review the 18 key principles and licence, thank everybody who came to that meeting because it did really make a big difference I did ask for for help and help came we add over about half of our committee peer attended that so that was great. Thank you, members, I understand the record but from the recommendations that we are going to move to a single committee structure next year.

so this might be the last meeting that I chair.

a lesser fight for it.

Keller, would you like to say anything about that or?

Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:07:31

not much more than what was just certain the sense of yesterday, the Combined Authority decided to go back to where we are.

back to a single committee structure, the details are still being decided, mainly depend on what the independent remuneration panel will decide in terms of a remuneration for members different types of member roles, but it will be a single committee.

and anything more than that will be circulated to nominating authorities during the annual Council season, so Members will know so what positions will be up?

in what it will look like, if you like, from June it has been confirmed again at the June annual meeting, so all we can say it is really that what I'll do is I'll circulate to members then this afternoon are the report that went to come back for yesterday that will outline in summary the main points of what the system will look like and what it aims to achieve.

as the Chair said about the level for devolution and scrutiny protocol, the government has formally invited the authority level for devolution, and one of the conditions is the scrutiny protocol has to be implemented by the 1st of March next year, 2025, and so that there will be another plan done to explain how it will implement that again

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:08:56

I'll come round members at some point that's it really happy to answer any question as either now or after the meeting.

Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:09:01

yeah, for I say I think we, we have talked about quite a lot.

OK.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:09:11

flexi bus. So, as you are all aware, we met with officers after last May 10, on the 26th of January, to discuss the decision that was made about ending flexible pilot and in Leeds. We discussed what they did, how they did it, why they did it, and it was explained to us that the main reason for stopping the pilot was that it was doubled in price to over a million pounds which meant that it became envy unviable. A closure report on lessons learned is being written and we've asked them to bring that back to us. The important question relief of how the decision is, how how was the decision made and the improvements on record, keeping and communications have also been taken into consideration, and that's the members who are there if anyone's got any comments, sorry, I think you want to add to that

Cllr Andrew Pinnock - 0:10:00

yes, thank you, Chair, I, I thought it was a really really excellent piece of work.

because we were able to go into something in quite some detail, which we which we are often not, it isn't possible in in other circumstances, and I was very grateful for that, one of the points that I have that I want to make, though, is that that,

one of the difficulties stemmed from the fact that the decision to close the,

I think the pilot yeah sorry, I can think of the word early, was delegated to officers and and I

the the there is, there is a tendency, it seems to me to to do this rather than sending things back to committee elected members who made the original decision.

and I think I think the decision to close it early should have been.

something that the Committee should have taken rather than delegating to officers, because I think that it's it in a way, it's too easy, but but to me that that kind of decision is is what in planning in in in the planning context that I'm very familiar with would be classed as a difficult decision, so it really ought to go back to members to make that decision and then then it's then open pre-scrutiny much more readily.

yeah, thank you, thank you, Andrew.

yeah, please do.

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:11:41

yeah, just Sir evacuee and Andrew and Amanda said it was a really, it was a great meeting we had and we were able to get into the weeds of it. I suppose now, thinking about the fact that we were able to have working groups and we're gonna change to a new type of scrutiny where there's only gonna be one committee, I think we need to think about how can we still have those working groups that can get down into the detail as part of that, because I feel, as you said, that we did a great job of scrutiny in in that working group and I know we've done other working groups and we last year we did one around kind of decarbonisation and

we need scrutiny needs to be able to do that because let me say you can't cover everything in a meeting, so I hope that, as we go forward into the new level 4, that we really think about how we can do that detail because it's gonna be a massive agenda for one committee to cover and I just think there are some good lessons there and really good ways of working that can be taken forward.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:12:39

thanks for that, Councillor Watson, and I echo that and it is in the

6 Affordable Housing

scrutiny protocol that we will be doing that and we will be going out talking to people, will be going out into the community rather than actually just sitting in this room and people come into us. It's really important that we get out and face-to-face with people so yeah, I do urge if members have you know, if you've been on this committee wish to to really think about joining next year as well. OK so affordable housing item 6. The shortage of affordable housing has been mentioned many times in this room in this committee, and so we put it into the work programme as an important item.

with over 7,000 people waiting in Calderdale 20,000 in Leeds 25,000 in Wakefield 17,000 in Bradford over 13,000 and in Coakley's, according to figures in housing strategy 2020 for 2040.

when I added this that's 84,000 and that these are just the people on the housing waiting list across West Yorkshire, that figure really does worry me, and it's not, including the people obviously are hidden who are sofa, surfing or live in an HMO in mobile accommodation members we have a housing crisis on our hands and since COVID with the rise of Airbnb and the rise of inflexion we've obviously witnessed many people struggling to find somewhere to live.

and like other Members here, I am sure you will get e-mails from people who are really struggling with the situation, and it is so easy to to look at these figures and and just see numbers, isn't it, and I think it's been brought up by I'm gonna Kay Keighley, Councillor Brooks broods, somebody up at the the meeting we had with the Mayor, somebody living in a shed, I had somebody with autism contact me the other day in tears, you know, we are in a really difficult situation.

so as a scrutiny team, I just wanted to make sure that we had looked at this situation.

and that we didn't leave any stones unturned and that we did what we could do so it gives me great pleasure to welcome to our Scrutiny Committee today, officers from from wicker and homes England.

if come to answer our questions.

Alison Gillespie, Head of Environmental and Place and Policy, and Rebecca Greenwood's housing policy late.

yeah, that's right yeah, of course, and I guess yeah, who've been introduced themselves, or Andrew Andrew Whitehead from West Yorkshire Housing Partnership, Daniel claimed, from housing together, housing Tamsin Hart Jones from homes, England and Tom Holly from House England. Thank you so much for your time today and yeah welcome so firstly I'd like to congratulate her Rebecca Greenwood, head of housing and and Liz Hunter who have had me since with Elna producing this amazing strategy and I'm aware that you've been working on this for well over a year. This is not a new piece of work and that it was approved by the Combined Authority yesterday, so congratulations.

I'd just like to begin by asking, is there anything you'd like to add at this point

no thank you for that, which has worked very kind of you.

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:16:01

yeah, just with pop, I'm sorry in the pair per about the journey that we've been on. We've worked very closely with the police, Regeneration and Housing Committee, which I think Councillor Brooks, as actually at 1.00, of the meetings as well, where we discussed this a few months back. This document is really we're very clear that it's about setting out our regional role in the regional picture of the housing challenges and opportunities in West Yorkshire and we've absolutely recognised that there are five local authority housing shortages that are statutory documents which officers locally are working to deliver, and what we're looking to hear is really add value to that at regional level, particularly with some of the constraints and challenges that local authorities are facing. The paPent that's put together today

essentially tries to start off speak to the pilot the question that committee bears around, what is the issue with delivering affordable housing in West Yorkshire and how the Combined Authority can help defining the definition we used for affordable housing but have a picture on where the indicators are at the moment, the work that Combined Authority is already doing with with local authorities, homes, England, the West, Yorkshire Housing Partnership and also have some of those partnerships are developing, so that's all I think I wish to add at the moment chair and happy to pick up any comments with

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:17:13

colleagues. Thank you OK, who's who would like to kick off

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:17:20

Andrew sorry Morgan, I'd just like to ask a very simple question, and that is the use of the word affordable, because unless things are put

Cllr Andrew Pinnock - 0:17:34

in place, like I know, my authority has done to have affordable in perpetuity by putting a charge on on on the mortgage.

things will be affordable only once and then then it's only, in my opinion, only barely affordable for a lot of people, and I I, without sort of expanding the question to ridiculous limits, the whole housing market in this country completely broken, because the the the integration of housing for rent and for purchase is not properly properly regulated.

and I'm not suggesting that that the assembled people here can do something about it now of this morning, but I think I think we should try and work out how we move towards getting a properly regulated housing market that, where the two the two players here the combined authority and the collectively the five authorities are not treading on each other's toes but doing things,

to enhance the situation, sorry that that ended up a bit longer than I was expecting it to be to thank you, would you like to come back on that?

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:18:53

yeah, of course, and won't we all like to control that Councillor, I

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:18:57

think, is what I would say. Obviously, the housing market is is, is market driven and market-led them in the way the housing market is set up in in in the England affordable housing. The definition that that we use here is around affordable tenures, as defined in the National Planning Policy Framework, which is defined in the pair per affordable rent, social, rent, shared ownership. But I do appreciate, then that doesn't actually that directly impact on house prices. There is in indirect impact, so the more affordable housing that you delivers. If you look back to a postwar, for example, when more affordable homes were delivered, you can see the impact Batman has on balancing out the market and balancing out market prices, so it's the way that the UK housing market is structured as to why prices go up. I think the work that we are trying to do with partners is to boost affordable housing delivery and also through our strategy. I hope you'll see under object too far

that we've tried to specifically talk about those challenges of affordability in West Yorkshire, and we've we've not been backwards in coming forwards, about, say you know, our private rents and our prices are going up and that is creating intense challenges for people, and that's against a bit of of low incomes, so it was, as was rightly said, we can answer those challenges in this in this room directly, we absolutely try and recognise that through our strategy and trying to work through our with our partners to deliver as much affordable housing as we can,

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:20:24

thank you, Andrew German Attila issue just just can I come back on

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:20:28

that point, Councillor Pinnock.

first of all, for the speaking on behalf of the Members of the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership, most of our stock is affordable, indefinitely, surrogate grant anew delivery would get groundswell, empty England, and those conditions are applied, however what's affordable?

and that has changed because a lot of our rents are set at 80% of market value and we know what's happened in the market so markets have got up and now that does vary across the geography so most some associations are quite local, some like ourselves are regional, so we have properties all over Yorkshire and Humber and it's very variable I would say so we've just done a scheme or we're doing a scheme in Leeds and when I looked at the rentals and applied the definition of

affordable rent to those at or who the heck is gonna, be able to afford this, and not many was the short answer, so we are actually doing them at a lesser rent.

but making that stack up is a challenge, I think, the real challenge there, it is supply and demand, and it just hasn't been enough supply, the demand is outstripping the supply at the moment there's been property taken out of the market because private landlords,

you know, I've made it has become more difficult to own property. I mean, I think some of the raising of the standards is the right thing to do, but it has driven perhaps some landlords out of the market, and all that's done is push up, push up rents, so there is an imbalance at the moment, so even properties that are classed as affordable in some parts of the region probably aren't, and that's a challenging, and they are the only way I think to crack that is gonna be to is is gonna be to deliver more

thank you, Councillor Watson and Justin, and I know it's, I'm just

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:22:13

wondering if you have data on this really as a.

the Combined Authority, so obviously what we see whenever a new development comes forward is there's always a challenge over how many you know, obviously in Bradford we have a policy you know X per cent needs to be affordable housing, the housing developer goes all not viable. Thank you very much. Can't do it if you want these houses, you're gonna have to agree with me because otherwise we're not building them and obviously it leaves this situation where

Even though we all wanting to see affordable housing, even though it's not perfect because it is not affordable that it all the developers hold all the cards and I wondered one if there's anything that the Combined Authority can do about that and secondly, do you have data come from across the authorities have how many

how basically affordable houses are not being built because the developers have used the viability test, which many of us environmental campaigner, we campaigned against that, knowing that that's what developers would do, and I just wondered if you if we'd got data on how many affordable homes were missing out on basically,

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:23:26

unfortunately, we don't have that data so that nowhere is backed, it is all held by local authorities on a on a site-by-site basis as upon an application comes in in that section 1 0 6 negotiation happens. That's that's not been aggregated anywhere across how local authorities to then aggregate it to a West Yorkshire level. We are currently doing some work commissioned with a partner to look at how we can standardise viability assessments in planning across West Yorkshire, which will help us get that database so as we don't have it now, it's one of the pieces of work that I'm doing alongside our

and Policy Lead for special planning of almonds trying to get that bit, so we've got a much better and more robust evidence base around that and around how we haven't dressing others, viability assessments as a region, each local planning authority with it's up to local planning authorities to what happens in that negotiation but where we see the value in the region is probably a lot of learning across the five that can happen and then there's more that we can gather to to put the case into government around where it's not working and where changes to planning policy can happen.

so because we do recognise that a lot or are lost through viability and its being able to robustly challenge that, and I think the collective endeavour of doing that across or across five local authorities adds value to it.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:24:42

thank you for that, thank you for your question, I'm just wondering if, if it is also, if it is political, you know if that situation is so.

the Combined Authority is still quite a new Combined Authority and we are still finding our feet, I guess we're still finding out where those relationships are beneficial yeah, I would definitely say in this situation that viability, that sharing of data needs to happen for the good of all yeah, so whatever we can do, I don't know whether we can make recommendations to make that happen, then that's that's really the trajectory we need to think about thank you or do you want

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:25:22

to add to that and yeah just on that point, I think what the combined

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:25:26

authority does publish each year they publish a list of all housing

completion, so I think there might be actually included in this report somewhere, and they also include.

the number of affordable housing completions. So you can see a percentage from that. However, what it doesn't tell you is what was done on aged developments I think in Leeds, for example, last year I think they delivered about a third of all. The new houses were built in Leeds were affordable, which is pretty good, but of course that will also include developments that were 100%, affordable by organisations like ourselves. So once you know there are developers getting away with not delivering affordable houses absolutely, and it's frustrating. As you know, I get frustrated when I see schemes going through getting approved and they say Well, I can't afford it and you think

actually there's just more profit going into the back pockets of developers and ease any Isa difficult one for local authorities because they want to see houses, customers demand thousands of all tenures, including market sale, and we can't ignore that but but there is a there is an issue here and the planning system and it won't just be in West Yorkshire either it'll be across the country it is an issue.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:26:32

I'm not sure I have the answer, I'm afraid, thank you.

no, it is good to actually voice it, isn't it, and the fact that we share in this the same same experience Councillor Khan is next, thank you.

thank you Chair.

Cllr Sabiya Khan - 0:26:50

the development of affordable housing.

I wonder if it's part of the strategic plans in terms of development of cities as housings are city villages as most of the city centres.

there is a decline in retail and or we strategically approaching this development, and how can we accelerate it because of the severe shortage of housing that the Chair has alluded to, I would like to see a clear plan to make use of those urban spaces,

but also have the resources invested so that they are made a better you know for families.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:27:41

thank you, you can come back on that yeah, I think there's a couple of things, because there I mean I would certainly look to her colleagues

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:27:45

at Leeds actually on that and their affordable housing growth plan, which actually has seen some of the increase in Leeds, for example, in affordable housing over recent years in city centre, because Leeds done quite a lot of work to recognise the growth of build to rent sector and the more work that can be done in Leeds to deliver affordable housing. In that it is really challenging because of the issues that we just discussed. The other thing I would say is at a regional level, we've got our strategic placed partnership with homes, England, which identifies 16 focused projects. A number of those are our town and city centres, recognising the added challenge that you that you've put there around, stop declining retail the kind inside sides of retail because of our town centres. They were developing funds in those areas at the moment with homes in London, with districts where we add certainly scrutinise with a level of affordable housing.

I think some of that is about the right level, so there is a housing waiting list but getting the right balance, because some of history again has taught us that ends up in issues of stigmatisation, where you have huge communities of social housing, absolutely if you look to London and then you know,

higher-value areas next door to it, so there has to be kind of developed in a sensitive way, so that's one of the things that that we're doing collectively, Seddon, if you want to add anything on that, so she's gonna say it might be worth at this point just if Thompson

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:29:09

and Tom could just give us a little bit of an overview of where you fit in this relationship. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, or

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative) - 0:29:17

homes. England is the Government's Housing and Regeneration Agency sewers and the just mentioned there. We

we have a range of different tools, a range of different funds that we can deploy to unlock housing, growth and regeneration, one of those is the affordable homes programme and to meet our expert in that, so I'll I'll bring him in in a minute but we also have a range of other tools supporting SMEs developers with development finance supporting developers with infrastructure loans and also viability challenges on on big sites as well infrastructure grants for those strategic projects so we've worked them really really closely with.

the Combined Authority, our local authority partners and the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership over the last couple of years at the strategic place partnership that we have together.

is one of very few in the country, so it's it. It's a testament to the work of the Combined Authority around building up a pipeline and and really working together in partnership with us. So, as Rebecca said, we've identified a number of places and Bradford city centre. It is one of those places where we're really working closely together, bringing the full set of tools that we've both got, but also the capacity, capability and expertise that homes England brings to develop. Some of those projects get those projects investment ready, so we have three strategic objectives in our strategic place. Partnership with West Yorkshire and one is around investment ready projects

one is around sustainable communities and a lastly, but certainly not least, is supporting the mayor's ambition for the delivery of affordable homes, so all of those things work together as well to ensure that we are maximising the opportunities for affordable housing delivery in those focus areas that were identified, I'll hand over to Tom just on the affordable homes programme thanks Thompson and thank you Chair so the affordable homes programme

Tom Hawley - 0:31:19

is operated at the moment from 2021 to 2026, so 7 billion pound programme operates in England outside of London, and what that does is provide grant funding, support to housing associations, local authorities and other eligible entities to help them bridge the financial gap between the rental income that they may gain from a property or the equity that they may receive from a shared ownership property and the cost of either building that home or acquired it from from the private sector. When modelled over a typical lifespan of borrowing of say, 30 to 40 years,

so we worked with a large number of of partners and there are two different types of partners that we've got, we've got our strategic partners who work at a larger scale, such as are represented by Daniel and Andy today we've got 30 strategic partnerships and what they've done is demonstrated to us that they have the skills capacity and financial capacity to deliver at scale so they were procured back in 2021 to deliver over 1,500 homes during that that timescale up to 2026 and slightly beyond.

and what we've got, there is reliability, we've trusted partners that we've got some delivery coming through a scale and volume across the country. We've then got what we term as the most small to medium sized partners who come into us on a scheme by scheme basis and they asked for the grant-funded that they need to unlock a particular site. So it may be that the it's or are part of a site that is looking to deliver affordable housing or it may be a scheme, as Andy's mentioned, that is delivering 100%, affordable housing, but the grant we provided for

it doesn't go into section 1 0 6 homes, so that's where the developers intended to meet that financial contribution to will not those affordable homes, but we can enable affordable homes that sit outside section 106 agreements, so the ways in which that that we do that, as I said long-term funding commitment, uncertainty for for for together and and wait for district housing,

and then part has come to us on a scheme by scheme basis, so members of my team work across West Yorkshire to engage with housing associations and local authorities to find out what schemes they've got on their radar and we put that on what we call our pipeline of activity when the bids ready for a decision comes into us with a request for a grant amount come from a motion on what it's going to start on site or the key bits of information and we make a decision on whether to invest at that point then.

so I'll pause at that point, conscious of 5, quite a lot of detail that he might have some questions at that point, that's great, thank

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:33:58

you Tom, thank you Thomson, and I mean obviously we we've got market shifts and I've got I'll ask for a place of scrutiny you know we've were 40% reduction in government from government funding.

high inflation, obviously cost of building materials less construction workers to deliver such a Mason projects, I mean, I've just got a massive, how how are we, how are we going to deliver this, you know it's great to see we have delivered over 1,500 affordable homes 22 23 however there's a big leap from that 40,000 by 2040.

yeah, can you explain the how thanks?

Tom Hawley - 0:34:43

I think this can be through partnership working and continuing to face those challenges together. It's not easy out there at the minute in in developing for the reasons that you've outlined the Rapha three key pieces of the jigsaw puzzle when it comes to developing affordable housing, it's the the planning and securing upon decision it's the land availability and what are you gonna build a home and it's the financing that enables that not to happen and you need all three legs of that still to be working effectively and efficiently in order for that to to happen. As I said, we've got some funding that's available to assist with that partners have got their skills and capabilities to to bring sites forward. I don't know if Andrew or or or doesn't want to come in on on how they go about that and then obviously the local authority partners have got a key role in setting the planning context

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:35:31

as well and in enabling schemes to come forward. Thank you, yeah yeah,

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:35:34

sorry, I thought I'd just come and talk about the the financing books. I think that's an important thing to think about

so together housing is a long-term investor in property, so as a private developer what you do is you develop property and you get a capital return when you sell it an organisation like mine or Andy's, we're interested in only that property for 30 to 40 years that's all so it's a very different model in very different ways think about how you develop a property because you'll still be if there's a problem you'll be coming back in 10 years' time 15 years time to fix it.

as an organisation together, housing total debt is around 730 million pounds now. That's long-term debt, secure with capital markets, with

Mr Daniel Klemm - 0:36:18

banks and financial institutions, and pension funds, but changes to interest rates have a huge impact upon that. Around 70% of that is fixed, but if we need to go back out to the market, to finance up a development of 100 homes in Calderdale, we're then thinking about what our interest rates gonna be like in year, 28, in order to pay that back so that your housing association in particular, I just think about large scale mortgages really, yeah yeah, you're borrowing money now and you're returning have a period of time, so it just never underestimate the importance of the financial position of organisations, but also the but the ability to secure capital in the long term and be able to repay that banks and pension funds only give us money because they know we will pay it back yeah, in terms of that pipeline. He talked about I think it is gonna be a challenge over the next few years. I think most of the larger associations that are active in West Yorkshire have a growing or aesthetic outline, so I mean your analysis is growing at the moment, but but others I think remain in a kind of quite quite static and we're actually finding it

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:37:26

easier at the moment to bring forward affordable housing bizarrely than we did probably 18 months two years ago because private housebuilders aren't as active as they were two years ago of sets out you, you've probably seen the pipelines been Tamsin and Tom may know would be a good policy in the pipeline actually build at the moment, but that will only be short term because of the housing market will come back

and then private house builders will start our agendas again, so I don't want you to think that that's gonna be something that's gonna continue into the long-term, it probably well, so I think most of us have got capacity now. Business plans are buying land, we are bringing sites forward and so I think in the next two to three years you'll see there was being developed because there's a leading time, so I think the next Kenneth five-year term, if you like, I think we might see supply increase, not quite sure what will happen after that because they'll probably be or there could be a levelling off for Orrey or indeed Adamson. I think what's really positive over the last 12 18 months is that the government of Canada relieved the purse strings a little bit on homes, England, so we can do more on brownfield sites.

because I, I suspect, that most of the development has taken place over the last fact, and it has been on greenfield sites, which it causes all kinds of issues politically for local members, when you plough it upfield, some building houses,

also, there are lots of brown field sites across West Yorkshire that have been derelict and empty for donkey's years and desperately need to be brought back into use, and it's grey and e-mail no hot homes, England of want to be able to do some of that for a long time but have been held back by.

that bureaucracy really centrally and that appears to have eased a little bit, and I think if if, if that continues, then that should help us in the. Certainly in the short term and very short term, I

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:39:15

mean next five years as really useful. Thank you for that. Would you

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative) - 0:39:20

want to come in on that? Yeah, I think both them and I might come in so one of the Andy M flags, the the challenges around brownfield and one of the great things we've been able to do together between homes, England and the Combined Authority is jointly funded project fund projects. So quite a few examples actually came through the plan place, Housing and Regeneration Committee last time where we'd got schemes which had affordable homes programme funding, but then also because there was a viability gap associated with the brownfield land, the brownfield housing fund could step in as well to support so that joint funding has been enabled, which is which is great, and I'll hand over to Tom because he may want to talk about some of the flexibilities that we've implemented as well,

Tom Hawley - 0:40:01

thank you, yeah, so the affordable homes programme is in no way geared towards greenfield development, it has always been able to do brownfield or I think that the flexibility the Andrews are rightly pointing towards areas we can now make contributions towards regeneration schemes so in the past issue a demolition 10 houses to replace it with 20 we could only support the net additional 10

but with the flexibility we're being given now, we could actually support the 20 that are gonna, be the new ones that are delivered, which is actually in response to the the points that the sector was making about, how it was holding back worthy projects, far from coming forward, which is brilliant, and to see that that flexibility, hopefully, that will remain in in the next programme as well. That's

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:40:44

great, yeah, they've definitely Ch it's changed as it enabled things to be released. It's you know, people are often saying Look at these mills, we could fill these with people and the right we can have now. We count so brilliant Rebecca, which I to come here with just two

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:40:58

points of clarity. If that's OK set out the 40,000 that you reference, it's just worth pointing out that 40,000 will be entirely affordable to select. Committee is aware so that 40,000 is across all the 16 projects. There will be a mix and the work we're doing is to look at what what amount of that is affordable, so I just start, particularly as we're at Committee meeting, of clarifying that the second is at brownfield is more difficult,

absolutely in West Yorkshire, our track record of across the last three years. I've just had a look at our recent report with about averaged out. So how about roughly about half on greenfield half on brownfield, so we are doing a lot of work across that and you'll know that. Obviously the combined authority has a brownfield housing fund, of which 12 of the 27 approved schemes are being directly delivered by registered providers. So we've worked really hard there, and 35% of the overall programme is affordable, which is actually a really high percentage, far out a programme that's not directly geared just towards affordable housing. So just a couple of points I wanted to add to what colleagues have said thanks for that and thanks for the

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:41:59

clarification okay, Councillor dots,

Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:42:04

thank you, yes, the 8 4 8 5,000 is is a heck of a lot of people on that waiting list and it doesn't say how long those people have been on that lace, which would probably be interesting, but I know I have a couple of cases in my area where they've been on the list for five years and it's because,

to adults that do not share a bedroom and they're in housing. That is really really unsuitable, but were that what the find is, it's often the families that get priority on the two bedrooms, and I have tried all sorts to try and get them something, and it's just it just feels impossible and they've even tried to look at mortgage, but they'd need a 100% mortgage and they're just you know, that's not something that we've been able to get, so there's a lot on that list that just

I am going to do that and I don't know how you manage that the other thing is it's in my area, there's a lot of rented housing that is well below standard and some of the houses I've been in, I can't believe that people are living there and a lot needs more to be done.

and a couple of times I've come across cases where this housing has now been.

made up to a standard, but then the rents are more or less doubled or whatever, because the standards better and then you find often no fault evictions, people are then forced out because they can't afford to live in that property that they might have been living in for a lot of years the there's lots of things going on adding to the challenges that you have.

I do not know what the answer is.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:44:10

thank you, yeah, you speak for for me for lots of us around the table, we all hear these stories.

I mean, we all hope these stories.

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:44:17

you're both Andy and I worked for housing providers, and we were the kind of solution the problem we find is that the demand is growing.

and there's so many people you can who got those kinds of stories that you want to house, and we just can't I'll just talk about the the the bish-bosh regulation, I think Andy's gonna talk about how we let homes and the relationship between us and local authorities.

as as a registered, regulated social landlord.

we were controlled to a certain extent by the government were independent organisations but were regulated, so if you're unhappy with a property from together or from W D H of main communities or each council yeah you can complain you're the resident can complain they can go to the Housing Ombudsman, you know we have to meet the terms and conditions of the regulator for social housing, so we've got a regulated social sector, but in the private, rented market, different different world. Now there are some good private sector landlords out there and I wouldn't want to say that all private landlords are bad, but there are some rogue landlords out there, and I don't know in terms of the case you are talking about. What would be great to see is a bit more regulation of the private rented sector to bring up the same level as we we have to have in the social rented sector, and I think you won't say to me a bit more about choice based lettings and how it works ye can do. Yes or me, I mean what you'd add, the weight you described about people being on the list waiting as is not uncommon. Most of the e-mails and letters that I see from MPs and local members is on behalf of constituents that are struggling in the are very similar to what you described

the way that homes are allocated is through what they call choice based lettings scheme so that the local authorities effectively assess any applicant for.

for the first of all their eligibility for social housing, because you know if you had a lot of money, you might not be eligible and then, if you're eligible, you're effectively banded, so you given an A B C, whatever band.

the reality at the moment, if I'm honest, is that unless you are in a band and four and a band, that's probably somebody who is homeless, who might be in temporary accommodation, bed and breakfast something like that, and we're all with a child.

if you're in a band you, it will vary from place to place, but you probably waiting weeks or months, depending on how, specifically, you specify the kind of property that you want, so we do get people on the list and they'll say I've been on you'll have been waiting a year, and when we look, they've said that they want a three-bedroom semi on that street, well, there aren't any available, so you will be waiting if there's other more, the broader, their their ask, the more likely they are to get on, but the reality is they'll still, even if the very broad and if all they said was we'd like a house in Leeds or we'd like housing Wakefield are likely to be waiting weeks or months if you're on a a b or c, you will be where you are at the moment you're waiting years and it's back to that point of demand this, the the the supply of of homes, the number of homes isn't sufficient for the amounts of people who are wanting a home, and we've seen turnover drop, so we sit, so we'd get very few people leaving our home, so wants to get home in social housing, I guess it's the same elsewhere, but we were you know, I monitored them weekly, I look at the turnover of our properties and they've dropped so it's less than 1% at the moment, so we have 33,000 properties less than 1% of our homes vacated each year, so I've not in LA and then on top of that, obviously we build new ones and we're building about 500 a year, so you can see that you know with 20,000 people on the waiting list in Wakefield. There's about 6,000 or active so that people who are bidding on a weekly basis

there's very little chance unless you are in a of getting to the top of that list and you know any society, it's a sad situation, but that is, that is the situation and I think in terms of quality right, I agree with Daniels comments,

you know that the sector hasn't always got to Rye, I think I think most of the horror stories that you've seen in recent years about quality haven't been in in housing associations that had been elsewhere had been in the private sector they've been.

in local authorities that have been decimated, their funding has been decimated, so you know, but I think most have got their act together with the private sector, isn't regulated, it needs to be regulated.

and and hopefully now there is gonna be a new decent homes standard introduced so that the suddenly proposing that there will be I think we would all welcome that, but that needs to be applied across the board and not just in some sectors and not others it needs to be

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:48:59

applied across the board, I think we'd all agree with that, so thank you for that and Rebecca would you act yeah just a couple of points on

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:49:05

that banding system, it's worth Committee being aware that that is thus that's set in legislation.

so how how a local authority has to band applicants, though, is a priority, need assessment that is set out in either the Housing Act 96 or 2002. I can't remember which one, so there is a reason why that system is in place. There's usually particularly where stock is transferred to a to a housing association from a local authority. Some point in some point in the past that's usually a nominations agreement which some of those are expired now, but will usually say what what amount a Housing Association has to go through the banding system and perhaps has a slight percentage that can be more flexible on.

so that will differ by local authorities, so it's just worth being aware of that and the second point on quality we've absolutely recognised that in our housing strategy and there's some real pork quality across across West Yorkshire, the renters' reform bill has been coming forward for some time now to bring some changes, including around no-fault evictions, is relatively stalled, I think is fair to say, and I think there's very differing opinions as to whether that goes far enough or not via different people but just in terms of quality we are obviously running out the better homes hub programme, the combined authority and one thing we want to do more of around that is in childhood as well as retrofitting and decarbonising homes that we don't lose sight of improving some real basic quality things as well, absolutely recognising what's been said.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:50:35

brilliant. Thank you, Councillor Foster, thank you, I've got a number

Cllr Dot Foster - 0:50:41

of sort of interlinking questions re I am the first is about difficult to develop sites which links in with earners. Question I know of a number one in particular has been

there were some flats on it, there were sort of leading an awful lot of work doing on them, so they will pull down instead fair enough, I don't think anybody really like living in them anyway.

but that site since has been left vacant, because it's not a particularly big site, it's difficult to develop because it's not flat, but nowhere in Cold Vale much is, and it's just sitting there, and it's very frustrating to get the housing owned, by the way, just to top up all the of you, but it's what is one of those where you just think that there's got to be a solution and various plans have been drawn up and then they've been ditched because the yeah, the the money, the the figures don't add up, so how do we get around problems like that is my first question. Do you realise we're all gonna be like

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:51:50

lining up at the end of this meeting with, if you can set up a little Hastert casework at the end? I'm gonna be a welcome members to

J sorry, sorry.

Cllr Dot Foster - 0:52:01

my second question is about the building of new homes with good insulation, so that we don't then have to retrofit them, which is an awful lot more expensive.

at the moment we've got huge questions around cavity wall, insulation, scandals and all sorts of things work, one of my colleagues was involved in the SSB law debacle which I'm sure you'll have come across.

and you know we, we do have a problem with a lot of poorly insulated stock.

and really, it's so much cheaper to build stuff with the decent insulation is put in place in the first place, but we are still seeing houses being built.

then are poorly insulated, some not necessarily housing associations but yes, with private private homebuilders yeah, we've got, we've got one case file where the residents have been trying to get snagging issues sorted for years and you know we're not talking small stuff, we're talking about windows with great gaps around them and all sorts of stuff like that, so you have the quality of build, isn't there in a lot of cases but the insulation

we're not building stuff, that is future proof in a lot of cases so that needs looking at to I'm a loss fairly quick point, it's about accessible homes, in particular making sure that bungalows are built without steps up to them the whole point of people needing a bungalow is because their mobility is not is limited but the amount of bungalows people look at and think Well I would love that that would be perfect for me but I can't get into the property because the steps in the way

is there is there funding available to look at that and address those points, so those properties are then available for people who need to move because of accessibility needs, sorry, that's quite a lot, but

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:54:05

thank you Councillor Foster t, do you want us to take a number of questions and and then come back to happy I mean I have a good Bill

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:54:16

Councillor fossils questions first perhaps and then a report some other ones I I know about signs on the bridge that we're talking about in July

obviously, in a public forum there are certain things I can't say in terms of things, but we have had a number of discussions, as you now know, you've been part of some of those discussions about what we can do with that sigh it's complicated due to the that the the aspect of

Mr Daniel Klemm - 0:54:41

it and you know that the lack of flatland yeah again we would want to develop it if we could put forward more houses on it, we would it's about making the scheme stack up

and yeah, how you can do that in the best way moving forward.

so happy to talk to you about it outside the meeting, Councillor

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:54:59

Foster, if you want it might be easier, I do regret that way.

in terms of the the other two issues.

I don't know if, if Andy wants to try to deal with the issues around

Mr Daniel Klemm - 0:55:13

them, building of new homes and retrofit just in terms of bungalows and one of the challenges that we have as as housing providers is thinking about things for the long term now and yeah how you can build a home that is meeting the needs of the today and tomorrow.

and yeah, particularly when we're building new homes, we do give a lot of thought to those things, perhaps the homes that were built in 1972.

or in 1982 yeah, we're not thought about in the same way, so there's a huge problem of retrofit, and we all have a 10,000 properties in Calderdale, as you know, it's quite difficult to go back and retrofit all those problems we do agents and adaptations, so if a resident has a particular issue they can apply, we work closely with the council around some of those issues.

but I, I think, that the the planners of 1972

perhaps didn't always do us some favours about what we'd been left with.

yeah, in terms of quality, I add I recognise what you said, we you

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:56:13

know, we get in every sign at 4.00 1 0 6 properties, sometimes my development team will say.

you know that they've gone to the developer, said he'd completed, we've got to look at it, and this will lead to snagging issues and wants to develop, has gone off-site, getting him back is a nightmare, so fortunately now we're in a position because we've built our pipeline, we've got a lot in our pipeline, which has refused to take them

so so we we you know, but I don't know that we've always done that one and then then we've either had to go and fix it ourselves, which is not ideal when you've effectively paid for it to be right in the first place or we've tried to get the developer back and that they're trying to get a developer back once it moved off. Site is is is absolutely almost impossible. So I think it is about making sure that that you know the building works team at the local authority all over it, because most in theory should be built to SPCA or be now as a minimum, really and and certainly that's what we specify and are working with colleagues

sometimes we'll go beyond that actually, but of course it is. It requires the the builder to actually do it to to to that standard and, like soggy, I think you know you need to tackle it while they're on site, otherwise you've got no chance in terms of the accessibility. One thing I can say is that at the last last meeting of the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership, we agree to adopt a new specification where where it was possible for what we call dementia friendly housing. Now that's got all kinds of criteria, tax rate, but one of them is level. Access, sorry goes beyond just dementia friendly. Ashley's makes them more accessible and certainly, and so we've adopted that we've said that we're gonna do that, where we're where we can. It probably is more challenging in Calderdale because you've got houses built on slopes, but I've said to my development team I want at least because I think this I think the specification says that our external accesses should be level, and I've said to my team, even on some of those challenging signs, at least one of the accesses should be accessible, but I don't want us to build properties that are not or haven't got at least one access that's accessible. So I think you will start to see more properties, not just bungalows, all kinds of properties that have got a better access arrangements, because that's you know there are 15 associations in the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership we've all said, we'll adopt it, so, and it's now been monitored, says Rebecca whom we now supply the nation to Rebecca and her team about Avenue. We'd completing that are accessible so that you'll start to see that come through more and more just to reassure

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:58:32

you we will be looking at, that has to say

Councillor Holmes,

Cllr Tony Hames - 0:58:43

sorry, I don't know.

Tom Hawley - 0:58:47

sorry, Councillor, as it was gonna say just on on the point. On sustainability, difficult size and accessibility, the affordable homes programme can and does provide the grant-funding when partners want to bring schemes with that typology forward, so it is really flexible funding that regard to meet local policy requirements. When it comes to that stuff or just an anecdotal point, I think sometimes partners do say that local parties out necessarily asking for these things and they will build to the requirements that are set out and is obviously set out a high ambition. Therefore, his organisation, I think local authorities do are in quite strong position to articulate what they need for their areas and for people on their waiting lists, and I think if you can articulate that clearly to the sector, the sector will invariably rise to that challenge as a good, responsible social landlord and, I think, on the sustainability agenda as well. I'm having a lot of conversation, we will look at with housing associations who take that agenda very seriously and are looking at how they can balance the cost of that against other competing costs when it comes to maintenance costs, as well as development costs. Obviously their capital budgets have to be apportioned between those competing pressures, but the secretary is taking the

the 0 carbon agenda very seriously indeed, thank you for that,

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:59:59

Cllr Tony Hames - 1:00:02

Councillor Hayes, Councillor H x.

registered national registered builder and concrete supply.

now, then, we need to move with the interest.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:00:11

Cllr Tony Hames - 1:00:15

now, when we, when we're talking about when you do the thing you refer to, was the price, the market houses are governed by a market price at a time when two major developers are currently under investigation for price rigging, now check on the other and second deals around transparency in building.

a new building, a new house, a subject to non-VAT nor the no VAT at whatsoever, so what you're talking about is probably 40,000 pounds worth of materials, what you get 20% back on right now, is this price rigging related to the way that the

the national builders are dealing with their VAT refunds, is the price rigging rigged around now that's something that needs looking into the other thing is I've sat through the Wakefield of the submission of the Wakefield development on a subtle the hearings in there, and I look round this table now and that we're all developers.

there were very few people speaking against what the developers were asking and they will, I Oliver Twist, asking for more or more long to come out of green belt, the logical magic green belt, because they can the starting price of a house is 350,000 quid and that's what thereafter, though on high value houses now the way we are going to get out of this problem and building our affordable houses we could go down American Road and open trailer parks.

we could.

look at all the aspects and do what we did after war and build prefabricated buildings and buying them a quick. That's that's affordable housing. Now the other thing is the way we can delay or form a relationship with really quality builders and, obviously, like list of builders that work for each local authority and cooperation and absolute transparency of whether that refund of VAT has gone checking of the price of the house. Or are they just pocketing aid and items like that and thus that's what I think is the way forward? The way forward is for local authorities to grab control of what happens in their area and all building their areas, and that the and then you can specify well, we want this brownfield land, developed first and that supply, and if we build a thought there, weren't going to get any work unless they work in cooperation with local authorities, then the doorway lining up

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:02:59

thanks for that insight.

thank you, Tony and I've got a question, construction works on page 19 of the Housing Strategy 2040 there is an acknowledgment that we've got a national shortfall in construction workers, and we've got 70,000 in West Yorkshire that are declining in numbers year on year and we need 225,000 in the UK by 2027, so can you tell us what we're doing as a Combined Authority to ensure that we've got enough construction workers to build these properties?

how will we encouraging people to want to learn this trade, thank you.

that and Councillor Harris, I wish you were on the Scrutiny Committee to government saying some of that, because some of that, I'd love for

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:03:43

that to be in our control, but I'm not just to just like you are on your point chair,

I think we can go back and get you some more information from our skills team on that, but directly, we do obviously have a business and skills team at the Combined Authority as well, who were looking across a number of different sectors including including construction with a number of our programmes in a number of providers in the region and I'd rather take that away and come back with it with a bit more about specifically what we do in our strategy we recognise that and,

putting that in there is the hope to said we know this is also an issue in the whole chain of how we get these things built. So if that's OK with you, it will come back with a little bit more on that

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:04:20

for you, yeah, that's fine of me and I'm I'm aware you know, people have left the country because of Brexit, we've had the whole issue shebang what people leave in and yeah, we're actually, we're really stuck, we've got lots of people retired during COVID, we lost a massive glut of people there, so we really do have to rethink about what we're, what we're doing and how we're gonna do it and yeah, maybe there's there's a role fee of that time.

I just want to I'll just wanna say I mean I've just completed three hours.

Cllr Tony Hames - 1:04:46

you get an awful lot, you might not believe it, but you get an awful lot for 100,000 pounds.

an awful lot, and when you see prices 350,000 you know there's an awful lot of profitably.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:05:03

thanks for that, okay, Councillor Thomson.

they have been thinking about some things to say anyway, which is.

Bradford, which is my hometown, I was brought up on the between ribbons Cliff and Thorpe had just stay in Bradford, which was in the late 1950 s early 60s, and the grew quite quickly because of the need, through the growing population post war,

what I'm interested in is finding out why the councils would, as some councils, would borrow money to have new green space in town and city centres, but it wouldn't borrow money on guaranteed income coming back in on what I class as social housing, which is council housing so we've got the land.

we've got the naked, but we see very little action on us taking responsibility to fulfil that need with Pam Oppo onto it appears no, let me say, a real Foster, it appears that we throw the onus on building developers and central government and it looks like we don't take the responsibility ourselves that we've got this hall that we need this housing where we could fill it with council housing on,

PFA money or were, wherever the money would come from back by the guaranteed income from the rents, but we were, it looks like we don't do that, I know we don't do that in Kettley's, I think in my ward with we've got the only council houses that have been built in the last 15 years, which is five of them.

and I'm just curious to know why we don't take the lead, take action and deliver the housing shortage ourselves instead of waiting for some body with a magic wand to come along and do it for us.

thank you.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:07:11

yeah, I mean, I can answer that directly because that that does sit

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:07:15

within local authorities in terms of placemaking and decision maker on how to have to use, have to use space and how to have to use funding to what you deal with that space there is obviously benefits of green space and benefits of open space which are also out through a vigorous local plan process as to where these things happen.

and each each local authority across the country will have their own, have their own policies, they run their own borrowing against that various priorities. We, we don't see and haven't got a role combined authority directly and dictating that and dictating web and how that should happen. So I don't think I am the right person to answer some of those questions and it would definitely be, I guess, in each local authority. Fascinating councils are interested into to speak to them, look officers about

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:08:05

thank you, Rebecca Tom, would you like to contract, thank you Chair,

Tom Hawley - 1:08:09

yet I think it's a mixed picture or do not have exact figures for each local authority represented here today, but there are some local authorities that do want to take that problem in and try and tackle it themselves. As Rebecca alludes to you know, it's the pressures on the housing revenue account as well, which can inhibit the ability to respond to the to the situation that pot of money has got competing calls on it for, as you'll be aware, stop maintenance decarbonisation as well

as well as development aspirations, and that's why I think the the benefit comes from working in partnership with other parts of the set through can bring in their borrowing capacity as well to try and work collaboratively.

to to address the situation, but there are many local authorities are now seeking to develop more council housing, think it's fair to say that there are skill shortages in that regard as well, within local authorities to be able to tackle some of those projects which again they look to get support from housing association, patents or all other avenues but yeah there's definitely something doing it.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:09:11

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 1:09:15

Andy Johnny Country, yr N J Thomas, answered most of that, but I yeah, I think some of its historic, actually, because I think back in the kind of late nineties early noughties. A lot of restrictions were put on local government borrowing, which which prevented them from effectively raising funds to build council housing, which is why you got the creation of a lot of housing associations and stock transfers at that time, as a result of them transferring their stock out of the local authority. They then disbanded. It did away with their housing revenue account, which I think that Tom just talked about, and that's the account through which they can borrow more money and it can take the rents from that and then put it back in to pay those debts. Only to authorities in West Yorkshire have HRA housing, revenue accounts, Leeds and Kirklees, the others don't don't have them any more because they transferred their stock Abbey, but they are. I think there are still restrictions on local government borrowing, but I'm not again like Rebecca I'm not the right person to ask her on that, but I think there are still restrictions so it does make it quite difficult for them to borrow money, even if there's a political will which is hands out there might be to do so there is not that straightforward.

thank you.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:10:21

and thanks for your question.

we've got this measuring our performance highlighted because there I think this is gonna be really useful part of the document for for RR for here, that we can bring you back so on an annual basis and say How can we get known?

I've got a question about about Herbie and B, I don't know whether you can or you'll be able to answer it, but obviously COVID and all of its rules created the Airbnb's or trend, and is there anything that you can do to incentivise these properties coming back into the private rental market in your role?

are any of any of you, obviously maybe not the social housing people, but I think, as we see one sort of objective one, I'd really like to see no number of properties that we've managed to bring back into use, is that something that you have capacity or power to do, thank you.

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:11:16

I would have to look into that I mean last week at the Budget, one of the things the government announced was getting rid of belief threads around people who have second homes and making making it less and less of an incentive to use it for an MBA or be to help try and bring things back to other governments doing some thinking around that at the moment and released some bits in the budget. We can certainly look into if there's anything that we can gather in terms of ALMO, our measurements of how many kind of second homes there are in the region and how many there are in West Yorkshire and the impact that UHSM supply we don't have that at the moment, but we can tell that well into it.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:11:49

I know I can only speak for Colsterdale really, but you know we do have an awful lot of people who have paid the rent and everything else and then that they ended up homeless because the landlord

has decided it wants to Navenby I've just I've got Kelly, Russell Brooks, are you want to come in on that one?

OK, yep, please wow wow, I am not just that.

Cllr Tony Hames - 1:12:11

wow wow wow there's an issue with rates, so I'm not sure we'd rate where the the empty houses will be and identify and the councils are illustrating that that is blocking the the provision of homes now when you come to Airbnb that's a reduction and empty houses furnished right so an empty houses furniture, they're gonna start charging rates on

book an Airbnb, if you'll register that as a business, then you get.

it fits into low business category and you pay no rates, so I don't see how, unless they come up with some legislation about Airbnb because Airbnb, there could be an owner with multiple Airbnb and it could have it could help a big business which, in each different authority where he's gone is getting clusters no,

as a small business and pay no rates, so it's a low poll that needs to

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:13:14

be closed, door anxiety and make a really important point, and it's just on the same point. Yeah, I think it is interesting, I think, the

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 1:13:20

certain parts of Pudsey, West Yorkshire, I'd imagine you know Hebden Bridge and places like that, albeit classic and also like North Yorkshire when you get into there where you effectively got ghost towns and ghost villages, because nobody lives there anymore, I think possibly through devolution some of the discussions that may be West Yorkshire might get into in the next 12 months around devolution, meaning there may be something to explore for the future about whether we can have buyback programmes so that we can acquire those properties back of some of these owners and then put them into affordable housing stocks and the permanently affordable, and they're not then let out for the for the highest bidder because you know it is not viable for us to buy them back because some of them as these properties are generating massive income. So the the owner, as you could understand, thinks I'm not gonna, sell it to you for 100 grand, I want you know a lot more than you know, it would normally be worth, but I think if we could have programmes where they could be competitively purchased and put in selected places not everywhere, but where you've got real issues like ebdon bridge in other places there will be others as well. I think yeah hi with there'll be another one, I'm guessing, you know, I, I think we're really really important

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:14:27

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:14:40

let's not go to the loo.

all right, so I mean the average reads an article recently about the hotel, so a lot of hotels have been affected by the A B and B situation, and then the irony in it is that we'd now have homeless people, we've put in hotels.

so if we just look at the way it's all kind of turned upside down, and OK, you know, COVID was the catalyst for that,

which which is fine. People have made use of what they've got, but I think, as we are out of that now and we're looking at the situation we're in with all these people desperate for for homes, I think it's definitely worth considering what to do next. I'm aware of times 20 past 11 and we've got another item important item on the agenda, as I've got Kayleigh Brooks and is that

OK.

thanks to your.

Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council) - 1:15:37

so objective 4 in the West Yorkshire Housing Strategy 2040.

I really I really welcome the access to the green space and play and the safety of cycling and walking.

in the mention of resilience of infrastructure, but I was puzzled that there was no mention of health infrastructure in that.

I understand the WYCA doesn't have direct responsibility for any of that, but it's.

it's something that's really really important people, especially when you're talking about increasing the number of people living in an area, and it's definitely something that nice taken into account when looking at ways to increase the number of people living in an area so.

is there anything that can be done with the partnerships to influence the NHS because we as a council are trying to get get an understanding of what's going on with the NHS, but it's it's difficult to get around that.

and then also the reason for the the the reason for councils not building as much council housing is what is needed is because there isn't any guaranteed income because of right to buy, so you can build the houses, but then we then saw a two three, four or five years depending on how long that person has had a.

tendency for this old off, so when you got a gaping pit in your finances, sorry yeah, sorry just about the the health infrastructure,

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:17:28

side of things, thanks for that and also, if I add to that mental health because obviously housing affects people's mental health

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:17:35

massively, so thank you yeah and that absolutely did come back Councillor Brooks in our consultation that we undertook commerce to Austria round around community based infrastructure.

I think there is more work we can do. We felt the point of publishing the strategy. So much of that, as you rightly said, is is relying on the NHS and education is another area that often comes up, as well as relying on their Department for Education and or another budgets that we want through our funds. Do a lot more work around how we can work more strategically with some of these bodies, where kind of revenue funding is also a really big part of it, so this that the capital required to develop the infrastructure, but then there's also the revenue to run it. We do have strategic relationships with some parts of the NHS. The Chair of the integrated care board has recently, just at last meeting during the place committee, which will hopefully really help that relationship.

at a regional level. So I think we're kind of through this strategy. It's the first time we've started to really talk about those things in relation to housing, and I think it's great to have a strategy, but actually I see this as the first step on our journey into some of the some of these areas that you've rightly mentioned. It's not just about homes, it's about what they mean for people's lives and what they mean for improving population health, et cetera, hopefully as well, in this strategy as well. We've really written in there the relationship between housing and health, so it's it, people need houses, but they need good quality houses and affordable ones so that, for their physical and mental health, housing shifts from being a detriment of health to something that supports good health

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:19:02

that's great, thank you, I'm really concerned about time, it's 25 passed and we've still got another main item on the agenda, is it a quick one?

promise promise, it'll be a quick one.

Cllr Dot Foster - 1:19:16

empty homes privately owned empty homes. Is there anything that you can do to help shift those back into use because a lot of them are just stock? There's all sorts of issues it can be yours probate was

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:19:33

that sort of stuff, but yeah yeah, as my understanding is that we're using council tax to do that because I've just been on the receiving end of this, so basically you get double council tax yeah, but he's not suggest that it's not, is there anything else, it's just not not

Cllr Dot Foster - 1:19:43

just the council tax, it's the sort of how do we get those back into circulation when the when the owners of them just don't wanna know, don't listen

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 1:19:52

yes, because I think different authorities have different approaches to that, so in Wakefield, we await with the Council the if some of the section 1 0 6 receipts that they get, sometimes when developers pay money into a pot rather than to deliver the 1 0 6 1 SCI Wakefield of use that so that we've been able to buy properties private properties and bring them back, we tend to we tend to try to do that particularly on our own estates and I'd always where there's a say a flat in a block because for fire safety we'd like to own all the flats in particular but what we don't want something going off beyond the front door that we don't know about.

so yeah, you can do it, it's really that the local housing department of a local authority can have have the powers to deal with empty properties, but the proactive ones can can do something and use 1 0 6 receipts is a good good good way to do it, that's really useful for

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:20:41

all of us, thank you so much and thank you so much to all of you have come in today and you don't have to stay for the next item okay.

but we really do appreciate, thank you, thank you, OK, members.

7 Local transport plan 4

item 7 Local Transport Plan, for I'd like to thank Simon and Helen and great to see you back Helen.

and

yeah, thanks for bringing us this update today.

I have to say it was quite thin on the ground, we were expecting quite a lengthy document and I'm sure you're gonna explain to us why it wasn't like that, thank you.

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:21:24

thank you Chair, so so, yes, so the paper that has come here around the LCP, I think my understanding is you'd ask for a longer discussion around different modes of different areas involved that will come across involved in the local transport plan, where we are in the development of that plan. I can't bring that today. This is more about kind of where we are in that process, so I'll set out what the papers do it, and if that's OK and then maybe where we can then take that

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:21:56

going forward, that's all right, yeah, OK, it's obviously you know, I met you three years ago, we were talking about Local Transport Plan then, and I'm kind of like, it feels almost thereof, we've gone backwards a little bit, but I'm sure you've got a reason why, yes, you know, I'm sure legally there's a reason why as well, because obviously things have changed so yeah, if you'd like to just embellishes. Thank you yeah, thank you Chair, so we've been talking a little while about

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:22:20

doing a new, a new Local Transport Plan, but it was it. There's been two reasons where we've been first one is timing, so it's making sure we have the hooks and things and making sure that all are in place to enable that policy framework to really land.

him, so as that's the first one and I'll come back to that in a bit more in a moment and then secondly, it's around government guidance, so we still haven't received guidance from D F T, but we've been waiting for a little while and it's been expected to come.

is unlikely to come in this in this government. So, but we've been pressing ahead regardless, but obviously talking about it for a while, because it's being talked about from government for a little while if I could just go back onto the first point, though, if that's OK, so I think what what we're saying here is West Yorkshire requires a new Local Transport Plan. This, as I say, this has been talked about for a little while, but it's around that timing. Our previous LTP was adopted in 2016 on urfa on a policy basis that was suitable to that time. But obviously a lot has happened since then and a lot of changes happened since then, which is why you're recognising that timescale, because we've had lots of conversations, particularly since COVID, et cetera, et cetera

as, as obviously was discussed yesterday, we've kind of taken a big step forward around bus and around mass transit, so it's making sure that this LTP has the right policy basis on which to deliver those and making sure those hooks are there, as well as champion integrated transport. So so, coming back to Conniff your point around, wanting to see a lot more detail into that the timing for that is not now at the timing, for that is coming forward in the next few months. Yesterday, at the Combined Authority, it was approved that we go out to engage in June and that's engagement on that vision. So what we are wanting to do in June is really have a conversation in public about the vision for the local transport plan, its direction of travel, its network principles, and it's kind of objectives on the back of that engagement will then be able to have a more detailed conversation around the the policy environment that we want. The policies that we want to bring forward and the implementation plan that sits behind that so so that's why we are where we are today,

with the content here, it's worth me just say in that the de, the vision that we are currently building and working on that will come out to engage with in June is built upon the West Yorkshire Plan, so, and this is about delivering the transport mission within that so so there's a clear clear linkage through of how that happens and obviously all of the stuff we've been discussing today so far kind of comes through that through that process as well.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:25:07

thank you, Helen, I mean we have you know, obviously, ever since yesterday there was so much that was was added to that wasn't there with mass transit, with franchising bus franchising anyway and we have literally been such almost waiting, I can see what's what's happened now just to make sure that members don't feel as if their words have just been, you know, not had I won, I want to make sure that you, you know you know that we've got behaviour, change and active travel still in there. We want to make sure that we're looking at the difference between the EA bikes and the e-scooters and the motorbike policy. I didn't know this but

did you know motorbikes are the biggest form of transport in the vault, I have no idea 80 segregated motorbikes are the biggest form of transport in WALT.

if China anywhere you know, India, I had no idea about that, somebody told me that recently, but anyway you know it's.

it's really important, I think, that the members that have brought this because we did talk about this last year didn't wait, so we've got freight and waterway policy, we need to look at that, including rail, obviously.

I'm aware that Canal and River Trust are being have been back to the government this week to lobby for more funds.

I mean, I was really lucky because I was briefed by Councillor Groves three years ago before she left the role of Chair of Transport, and she suggested that we really needed to look at the the existing freight strategy quite closely, and you know she explained that the the the viability for the commercialisation of the canal you know that was going to potentially bring 4,200 vehicles off the road but on the 62 yeah that's massive we need to look at that.

what else we looked at last year, we looked at the bus and rail footfall, homework in positives and the rise in sort of deliver, as you know, Deliveroo and whatever you know that we looked at the way that the world had changed basically post COVID yeah that obviously needs to be in the way that we're writing this, this new policy and members also to talk to quite a lot about pollution, public health and clean air zones and how we're going to incorporate that thanks.

thank you, Chair and yeah. That's really helpful summary. Thank you to

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:27:35

try and bring through the LTP in terms of the kind of of the active travel and E bikes, et cetera, et cetera, are kind of some of the glue that comes together to bring some of these bigger things that we're talking about mass transit, the quality of the bus network is that full, integrated approach that we are really, we are really looking at. There is a lot of work going on in the background, around our strategies and our policies and our thinking on all of those areas or on freight, and we're currently doing a piece of work internally at the moment which will come and come through this process. Updating our active travel strategy as well, so as is two examples amongst amongst a sea of others. Decarbonisation is also is also one of our key themes in here and we, through our network principles. If you like, we then have a number of cross cutting thing themes. Sorry,

decarbonisation is one access to opportunity, is another and can of equality, diversity and inclusion is another, so we're trying to run those three themes if you like, through our kind of core, I'm gonna say some words through our core pillars that are in our vision at the moment, so we're trying to really build that as a full picture as we go through them.

it is also worth saying that we are trying to take a very place-based approach to this LTP so being sympathetic to the range of locations that we have across West Yorkshire, be that you know, Leeds city centre versus Wakefield city one end can have then those other local rural areas as well so that the that place-based approach has been a strong way in which we're building up our thinking, so once we have our vision discussed openly and engage in the summer on the back of that we can really then bring out like our strategy work and our policy work through that process to make sure that our thinking in that way is matched to what everybody is telling us through through where we place our vision.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:29:29

and obviously the use of flexi bus.

got to add that sorry for it, really really for me, it does seem as if that is part of the jigsaw puzzle, it's got to be for people who can't do the active travel thanks yeah, thank you, so one of the pieces of

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:29:43

work we're doing within the team is looking at can of the principles around connectivity by bus and deity is part of that is part of that

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:29:51

process. Sorry reassuring to hear thank you.

Councillor Watson,

Cllr Anna Watson - 1:29:57

great thank you for the that's the update.

I think, like Amanda said, I was I sort of or we can have local transport plan and then what own?

but I understand because it is more about the process rather than the content I mean I noticed from.

that, obviously the climate committee has agreed, but we still don't know which of the three pathways we're heading for for West Yorkshire.

to deliver a net 0 by 2038, and so there's going to be a piece of work now done on, which is a pathway in Phillips, filling all the gaps, so I'm just interested to know how is that piece of work that's now going to be commissioned looking at the one complete pathway is going to fit in with the development of the Local Transport Plan because,

as we know, decarbonisation transport is one of the biggest areas to deal with to make sure that we meet net 0, so I'm just wanting to know how those two bits of work are going to be integrated if that's all right.

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:30:59

yeah, that's the case, so so the carbon emissions pathway work is part of our work in the LTP so that work is running now, if you like, when we get through to the conclusions of that, the timing should hopefully the conclusion and that will feed into where we are on our LTP, so we have one of our work streams in the LTP. As I was saying around, the cost cross cutting decarbonisation theme is being supplemented by the work in the carbon emissions pathway so that dovetailing should hopefully, very process way that dovetailing should hopefully happen

Cllr Anna Watson - 1:31:32

that's great, and I just hope in the I mean I know the you know, if you look for things, obviously on the West Yorkshire Combined Authority website, you can find things about the importance of Net Zero, but I really hope in the when you're going out to consultation and you're talking about the themes and it being place-based that actually you know that aim is really writ large, so everybody

the earlier you bring everybody into the conversation, saying this is really, this is such a huge thing that we've got to do, we can't not do this for ourselves, but you know everything that we want to see to have a liveable West Yorkshire going forward. This is what we need to do. I think you are more likely to you know, people will go with you on that journey, so I just really hope because I didn't actually

if you're looking at 2.00.7 here, integral to the co-development, you know and know all of those other things are great people first outcome-based, you talked about vision 0, but that's to do with road safety and you haven't actually got there and it was a bit surprising when we were HD Cobb, because that's that is one of the key biggest biggest challenges that we're facing, and I didn't see it so just to say a home in everything else in the way when you were going out in June and we are all going out to everybody in our community to talk about it, that we're actually explaining what a massive challenge that is, but we hopefully we're gonna be able to solve that together.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:32:57

Thanks yeah, I'd really liked it to come from a place of how can you help rather than this is what we're gonna do to you, because if we don't take people with us we've lost the game haven't way. Yeah,

Johnny come back on, thank you, yeah, that's exactly that key to it,

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:33:13

so there's there's two things in that we there are, there are things we all know we want, which is a better, more integrated transport network and there are things that we all know we can have want to help deliver. That's a the bar that people focus, that customer centric focuses is really what we are trying to do and we

we will also try developing a piece of theory if you like, at the moment, around that customer approach and that how does it feel for the person and that does interact with certain bits of transport and doesn't Conniff how is their journey coming through in therapy we call

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:33:46

it person centred?

okay, Alison, would you like to contribute? Thank you, I'm just gonna

Alison Gillespie, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:33:55

make a couple of other points, so the pathways' work is being led by my team and S M, I've come and spoken to you about that for, and that's absolutely our aim to get to a single pathway. So Helen's cover the point that that dovetails with the work that is happening around the Local Transport Plan, but just to the another point that the Mayor's climate chat is currently running, it's due to conclude shortly, so we've also run a couple of so the the chat itself and the survey online is, it is the Live. We've also run some deep dive sessions

transport has been one of the themes in some of the colleagues from Helen's team has or has led those, and so all of the sort of evidence that we're gathering through that, which is to your point, a kind of asking people what they think rather than us telling them what we're going to do, all of that sort of body of evidence will also feed into the work that Helen and her team are doing on the transport plan

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:34:43

that's great thanks on anybody else.

Councillor Pinnock, yes, thank you.

now that this is, this plan is coming at a very

interesting time and quite apart from the decarbonisation issue which I don't belittle, but you, if you talk to a lot of people about public transport in West Yorkshire, your your you'll find them complaining almost inevitably about the non-existence of is for for all sorts of reasons, and it would be one of the marks of a very well-organised society that you have.

an absolutely brilliant public transport system that was available to everybody within a short walking, distance from where they live,

I know that's not possible in all cases, but we we, we have quite a way to go, I think.

particularly in some parts of for of West Yorkshire, where the there is the it, it's it's just lacking the the the.

frequent and convenient public transport system now we're doing something about that with with franchising, and I would like like us to make sure that the franchising thread is not lost within this.

a Local Transport Plan, because clearly the two are or should be.

going hand in hand, because you are saying that is how we want to do public transport, and I I think that if we go in to ask people.

they will just laugh in our faces if, if we can't say Well, we go, we're going to make public transport more well, more demand sensitive if you like, it's got to be more flexible in order to

deal with changes in demand and so on, I don't know how we do that mind that that that's that's.

that's a bit of a conundrum to say let's not mentioned that the hotdog.

I'm I'm not sure you can use a I do to to drive a bus, but you might or cannot possible, but Karen I've been told by our Scrutiny Officer, Karen O Rye, OK you can, but.

it comes back to the point that people will say to you, what they, what they want of public transport is something that is reliable and convenient and, and if it happens to be decarbonise, then then then.

that is that is probably a good thing, but

I suspect for the majority of people they might put that cockpit, decarbonisation might come slightly lower down the list to reliability, but I'm not saying you can't do both that's great and candour.

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:38:04

Simon, thank you, so no, I think it's really important to emphasise that the decisions that were taken yesterday are fundamental parks of a new Local Transport Plan, and the local transport plan is is not written or in isolation of those at all, so as a result of yesterday's Combined Authority meeting,

when we are clear now in terms of how we want to go about organising the bus system going forwards, we are clear in terms of where we want to take a future tram system, and we are clear in terms of what our priorities are for the local rail network so that core set of

are systems that that define the base of public transport network are now starting to come together with it, with a greater degree of clarity around that, as Helen rightly says, what we then needs to continue to drive forward on is how we use active modes as first and last mile options within.

a public transport system or, and also is just a natural wave that we get around our or our neighborhoods.

and and again you know, we are a long way on the right path as as West Yorkshire in in that regard it shouldn't be overlooked that Greater Manchester West Midlands and West Yorkshire are the three places that are regarded by active travel England as exemplar locations in that regard to pick up on Councillor Pennant's particular point so bus franchising gives us the opportunity to understand travel markets and actually be able to do something about it as West Yorkshire Combined Authority now that doesn't come without future funding challenges for us we can provide a network.

not dissimilar to the network that is already out there but better organised, better promoted whatsover with the funds that are available to us, and then we need to make the case to ourselves in terms of where can we go beyond that and but the important difference between where we have been and where we will be going now as an organisation is we will be pulling all of the levers I'm one of the early pieces of work that will now start to happen inside the organisation is to take a much more customer focused approach to the way in which we go about planning our transport system going forward.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:40:57

thank you, Simon and congratulations, and all the work I mean a naval worked so hard on this year, but I I was really quite a lot of watching from home, I don't get out much and I was just I was quite surprised how much we spent in one meeting, so we it must, have been billions in one meeting. We spent obviously the money at mass transit. Yes, we would have that we'll have franchise and yes, we'll have that that you know we just just went on and on and on all the projects, and I was like Worcester spent billions in one meeting that was like wow Scrutiny. Are you ready? We've got lot to look at

so yeah, anyway, it was fantastic that you managed to do that piece of work and get it through it's brilliant Councillor Thompson.

our future.

I have a question reference to the the franchisee.

and also the time, effort and money that we spend on the carbon debacle because.

find it interesting that we demonise carbon over the last decade when it's always been around it's carbon emissions in this country have been flatlining since the midnight in 70s, it's never been an issue before the last 10 years and why we spent so much effort and money on trying to decarbonise something that's naturally declining anywhere is beyond me.

if we, if we take the carbon down to carbon neutral, which obviously carbon doesn't know any boundaries, it's not just the UK that will be carbon neutral, that can't happen, but let's suppose if we do then obviously the first thing that happens is old vegetation die, so we probably starve to death anywhere, so I just don't understand the carbon cope thing that's been going on for the last decade, so I'd like to see and have somebody explain to me why we have to decarbonise transport when it's not a problem, never been a problem and it's definitely not been a problem since the 19 70s, so that's one thing and the next thing is on the franchising

if we can't work with the existing model, which are the buses and trains that are out there and manage them as far as offices from WYCA and the individual boroughs and we can get the contracts to work, and we can demand that certain things are done for our residents, why do we think that franchising will be any different and the cost of that?

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:43:37

will be warranted, thank you thanks for your input, I'm sure we felt our different opinions and you know every opinion is valid and and I I appreciate that I think.

you know what the opinion on on on carbon, you know, I think everyone's got a different opinion, different understanding in eight days.

sorry, are you a climate scientist?

the climate science is created.

I'm not I don't wanna get into it, does it, it doesn't exist, does it not exist except it's definitely something that can be talked about it alone or fact it is a known fact, there is no debate, climate change is happening, climate scientists have set that out. It's one of the biggest challenges facing us in the 21st century. It is known, and I really I don't want to get into a discussion OK, thank you. Everybody

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:44:37

counts, Simon, I do like to come in on the other issue, so I am to to simply address the comment, but we, we have Cabinet as a driver with a dog transport pump, because there are legislative requirements that the post of the Combined Authority. I don't wish to get into a debate if it is in simply

8 facts when we have statutory duties,

in that regard

with wi rib regards but bus franchising it, it's a very fair question so historically, over the last 40 years, increasingly over the last 2025 years in particular.

we, along with other local transport authorities, have looked to him improve the bus offer by working in the most binding partnership arrangements that we can put in place with private operators, so in effect we have used public capital to invest in improved bus waiting facilities in

in facilities such as the real-time information system, the that we have in West Yorkshire in bus priority measures to help buses to move easier through congested points and on the highway system or and in return, we have looked for the industry to step forward and and improve its offer.

and the conclusion that that we have reached is that that, but that has not got us very far.

the difference between working in partnership and working on the franchises is is very simply.

we will set out clearly in binding commercial contracts what what is expected and that will cover all aspects of the customer proposition, vehicle quality, driver training standards, customer handling standards.

integrated ticketing or arrangements vehicle maintenance standards, I could go on all of these issues will be contractual requirements that were that we will then put in a contractual monitoring regime.

are in place, and that's exactly what you've seen rolling out on the streets in Greater Manchester, it will be a very, very similar approach that we will move to to bring it in place here, so the difference between where we have been and where we are going is that we will then be able to demand those standards and there will be penalty regimes if those standards are met.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:47:29

I just thought yeah yeah, costing to future thank you, so just one question on the contract, then why are the contracts that we already have with the providers similar to what we're talking about as far as the franchise exists?

the dot, what do you mean that exists as commercial services are not provided under contract, so there is no contract between councils, there is not in that said, the survivors okay.

it's been one of the main issues all along to me if they can't be held to account in the same way, No, no, it's OK, I do apologise, yeah yeah yeah, yeah Rye, it needs to change, absolutely right needs to change and I think that Simon and his team as a are working on that as part of that one and I mean as I've as I've suggested, we obviously we're talking now about the bus repo re bus reform and in the next

few months, I'd really likely to have a look at that. Please look at that document. It is so it explains in so much detail. I know it's one for us, you know, it's a lot, that's probably too much detail, but it does explain how it's gonna cut up the different areas and how each of our areas, even if you just look at your own area and and then come back in the next municipal year, and we'll we'll look at that then, but I think it's so important that we understand how it's going to be carved up and negotiated. Yes, I'm Chair, so if I can also add that s

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:48:54

you quite rightly made the reference to the fact that there's about 1,200 pages

of, or a material, which we've produced, incredibly important, that we do so incredibly important that we are follow due legal process, but I recognise that we are a small club, those of us who have read all 1,200 pages of or of the documentation know now that the decision has been made. Once once we'd gone through the local government election process, we will be putting in place a series of briefing

exercises for local councillors to explain, so where does this process go from here, so yeah, we do it, we don't expect everybody to re Vidal all of that, we now want to set that out very simply once we've got got through the election period, but I think we would all really

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:49:49

appreciate that Simon thank you and thank you Katie for all the reason she's been doing as well and now she's been working

in the background, reading lots for us, it's five to 12 members, has anyone got to leave bang on 12, I'm sorry, I will just concentrate yeah, please, Tony just just be yeah, thank you, it's just a brief

Cllr Tony Wallis - 1:50:10

comment about my customer experience this morning.

because I will put a question for people who owe it to his taste, it is I use public transport when I come into Leeds from Castleford, I went to the train station, there was the the notice up saying the train had been cancelled because of a landslide that will go, because not only did he tell me that my train had been cancelled, it said because it told me why he told me why I went to the bus station, not far away, went to the bus station, unfortunately, the fourth train to Leeds with Councillor Brett and say Why

but even so, I saw went back to the train station now, I were OK with all that because I had the information, the train station now has a

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:50:59

waiting room in a cafe, so and it just meant to while I was gonna be

Cllr Tony Wallis - 1:51:03

afternoon away so I just want to say things have improved over the past time but I am aware that it's the time and the place where it was good for bringing a

say on a Sunday else, something on an evening, whether they had a longer way to, I might not feel so good, but I did feel good that I was informed, why, and that I'm not only our only offer now await yeah, that's right, yeah yeah, so yeah, you are taking on board what

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:51:32

customers say, thank you 0 just gonna say, Councillor, so so it's good

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:51:36

that the information was wow was the

the fact that the full samples of London isn't good.

so we're not there yet.

Cllr Tony Hames - 1:51:46

Jack and I just book a quickie, this is an active travel, there should be Yorkshire imagery.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:51:51

Cllr Tony Hames - 1:51:55

Joanne, so your humans will based on this past year anywhere is a long way in the rain.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:52:02

Jolie notes, as it was then, and this this subject, thank you both for for you for your work on this, and we look forward to seeing it next year.

we have got to look very briefly at our work programme, so things that I've got on are we've got the bus reform consultation report, got flexi bus, we've got mass transit LTP, for housing strategy because we are still housing and infrastructure, I think,

as of today.

OK so yeah, just to round up then as a real big thank you to our officers and guests do if,

been joined us today, thank you to our Scrutiny officers, Kellogg's and Katie.

8 Work Programme

and of course no one really knows whether they're gonna be here next time, therefore I'd like to just take this opportunity to say thank you, members, I've really enjoyed working with you, hopefully I'll be here.

what role I am not sure yet

the Combined Authority ATM, will we will find out who's gonna be doing what when and that is gonna, happen on the 20th of June, so good luck to all of our members who are up for election and we hope to see you on the upside, thank you for that but I've not saved you any backup and we should all thank Amanda because he'd been our Chair the last

Webcast Finished - 1:53:24

few years so thank you.

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)

Chair of Transport/Infrastructure Committee

Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council)

Leeds City Council

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative)

Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)

Alison Gillespie, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Executive Director of Transport

West Yorkshire Combined Authority

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership)

Cllr Joanne Dodds

Cllr Dot Foster

Cllr Tony Hames

Tom Hawley

Homes England

Cllr Sabiya Khan

Mr Daniel Klemm

Cllr Harry McCarthy

Cllr Andrew Pinnock

Cllr Tony Wallis

Cllr Anna Watson

Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee - Friday 15 March 2024, 10:00am - Feedback Tab - Start video at 1:20:56 - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny CommitteeFriday, 15th March 2024 at 10:00am

Agenda

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Votes

1 Apologies for absence

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:00

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:03

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:05

Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council) - 0:01:43

Cllr Harry McCarthy - 0:01:49

Alison Gillespie, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:52

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:58

Tom Hawley - 0:02:07

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative) - 0:02:10

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:02:16

Helen Ellerton, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:31

Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:36

Cllr Tony Hames - 0:02:46

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:03:01

Cllr Sabiya Khan - 0:03:03

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:03:06

Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:08

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:03:16

Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:30

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:03:46

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

3 Possible exclusion of the press and public

4 Minutes of the last meeting held on 26 January 2024

5 Chair's comments and update

Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:07:31

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:08:56

Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:09:01

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:09:11

Cllr Andrew Pinnock - 0:10:00

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:11:41

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:12:39

6 Affordable Housing

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:16:01

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:17:13

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:17:20

Cllr Andrew Pinnock - 0:17:34

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:18:53

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:18:57

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:20:24

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:20:28

Cllr Anna Watson - 0:22:13

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:23:26

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:24:42

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:25:22

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:25:26

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:26:32

Cllr Sabiya Khan - 0:26:50

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:27:41

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:27:45

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:29:09

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative) - 0:29:17

Tom Hawley - 0:31:19

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:33:58

Tom Hawley - 0:34:43

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:35:31

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:35:34

Mr Daniel Klemm - 0:36:18

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:37:26

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:39:15

Mr Tamsin Hart Jones (Private Sector Representative) - 0:39:20

Tom Hawley - 0:40:01

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:40:44

Rebecca Greenwood, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:40:58

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:41:59

Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:42:04

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:44:10

Andy Wallhead, Advisory Representative (WY Housing Partnership) - 0:44:17

Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee
Friday, 15th March 2024 at 10:00am