Corporate Scrutiny Committee - Friday 24 November 2023, 10:00am - Feedback Tab - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting
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Speaking:
Agenda item :
Start of webcast
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
Agenda item :
1 Apologies for absence
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Cllr Samantha Harvey
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Cllr Bob Felstead
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Patrick Bowes, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Patrick Bowes, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Anna Woodhouse
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Cllr Richard Forster
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Cllr Susan Lee-Richards
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Cllr Katie Kimber
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
Agenda item :
2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests
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3 Possible exclusion of the press and public
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Agenda item :
4 Minutes of the last meeting held on 22 September 2023
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Agenda item :
5 Chair's comments and update
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Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Patrick Bowes, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Samantha Harvey
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Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Agenda item :
6 Budgets and finance
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Samantha Harvey
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Samantha Harvey
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Paul Wray
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Paul Wray
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Andrew Waller (York Council)
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Cllr Bob Felstead
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Paul Wray
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Cllr Susan Lee-Richards
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Alun Griffiths
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Alun Griffiths
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Cllr Samantha Harvey
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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
Agenda item :
7 Gateway Review update
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Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Anna Woodhouse
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Cllr Samantha Harvey
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Anna Woodhouse
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Anna Woodhouse
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Anna Woodhouse
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Anna Woodhouse
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
Agenda item :
8 Corporate Scrutiny Work Programme
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Cllr Paul Wray
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Cllr Ralph Berry
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Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair)
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Webcast Finished
Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.
1 Apologies for absence
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:00:00
it will do just a couple of things, better housekeeping one is if you can remember the tenure mix on when you are speaking, and the other thing is because I'm a bit of an old codger, I can't remember people's names, so if you can just tell me a card a little bit so that when I say when we get recalled I'm not willing to meet your name up or,give you the wrong name, because sometimes that does occur,
so what I would like to do, because we have a new senior officer in the building who most of us, if not all of us, apart from the other officers, have not met before we just go round the table and introduce who we are and which authority we come from, I'm Councillor Barry Anderson and I'm from Leeds City Council.
Kelly, Brougham Scrutiny Officer.
Councillor Samantha, Harvey from Wakefield Rural Ward and Co.
and Councillor Alan Griffiths for Bradford
Cllr Samantha Harvey - 0:01:01
Cllr Bob Felstead - 0:01:06
Councillor Iqbal, Felstead, from Bradford, substituting to David nuns.are able to borrow from a Leeds City Council.
Councillor Andrew Waller, from City of York,
Angela Taylor, Director Finance and Commercial Services for the Combined Authority.
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:19
Alan Reece, chief operating officer for the Combined Authority.Patrick Bowes, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:27
o I'm Sarah Eaton, I'm the new director of strategy, communications and intelligence, and I I think yesterday I have been here a month, so not very long but lovely to meet everybody.Patrick Butler, the recession, and so I'll just come out authority.
Patrick Bowes, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:44
Anna Woodhouse - 0:01:47
Anna Woodhouse evaluation manager at the Combined Authority.Councillor Richard Foster from Wakefield Council,
Cllr Richard Forster - 0:01:54
Cllr Susan Lee-Richards - 0:01:58
Councillor Ralph Berry whimsy war broken Council, thank you, Councillor Sylvia Richards, Kent police Council, Councillor Joe Lawson, from Kettley's Council, Councillor Kate, Kimber fromCllr Katie Kimber - 0:02:08
Calderdale Council Subgroup, the council night bands.Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:02:41
sorry, sorry, it might buttons, and I'm substituted by Katie Kimber, David Dunn and he's been substituted by Bubba Felstead Muji Crook, there's no substitute Betty Rhodes when there's no substitute and Rohit can, and there's no substitute as well.anybody, any declarations of disclosable pecuniary interests.
2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests
none.
there are no possible exclusions of the press.
3 Possible exclusion of the press and public
now, in terms of the minutes, there was one slight error.
4 Minutes of the last meeting held on 22 September 2023
5 Chair's comments and update
Councillor Waller was here on the minute she'd said he wasn't, but he was so with that change, are you happy to accept the minutes yeah yeah, right now, in terms of my comments, just off, just cover some issues.
that have occurred since the last time we've met, I've met with the Chair of the Audit Committee, Debbie Simpson, to discuss Scrutiny governance.
assurance and risk and future co-working, because I do think that we could work more closely with them, one to avoid duplication, with two just do reaffirm that what they're doing, we have scrutinised and are happy with what's happening as well and more on that as I go through here now you may or may not have been aware that the government published a new technical framework.
but little for devolution on Wednesday, if it missed yet, don't worry, I think it missed a lot of people.
and that means that authority has light West Yorkshire can apply for new funding and have some additional powers, although I am advised that it didn't quite get the highest level that they thought they were going to get, that is 94 WYCA. By the way, I'm just I understand that, for example, the north-east have been given additional powers and they're not even in existence which seemed a bit peculiar to me, but I've no doubt that'll come out in the fullness of time, but there were some covers that we could have got that at the moment and less Alan deal. As you know, the reasons why well we can come in on why I was going to say once you've if you go, if you go through this and you want to pick up the government's announcement, we can come to some code comments. Re motorway
now the protocol there is there is a new protocol for scrutiny so.
which is quite interesting in terms of some of the recommendation, the protocol was co-develop by Scrutiny officers, some members and experts, such as the Centre for good governance and scrutiny, and is a good summary of good scrutiny, and I think Kelly was involved in this somewhere along the line of Elliot.
in 1920 21, when WYCA adopted the current produce system ahead of the mere selection, they also said that the new scrutiny system should be reviewed within the Mayor's for STEM, well, that means we've only got until the end of May until the end of her first term so more on that in a minute as well as the protocol is now published, we propose to set up a joint working group of members across the three scrutiny boards and the Audit Chair to conduct a review.
an initial workshop briefing meeting will take place, hopefully in January for all scrutiny members, irrespective of whether they're going to be on the subgroup or not, or are interested, then the group will then meet and move forward with some recommendations.
the idea would be that we'd make recommendations on how WYCA can come to become compliant with a new protocol and report these by March 2024, with a view to adoption at the July 2024 EGM in the meantime, there are some quick wins that Khalid will be working on.
and you hopefully see the benefit of those coming along, but the approximate timeline is that in December we'll gather some working group volunteers to go on this, then January there'll be an initial briefing workshop, January February, the working group will meet and agree recommendations.
to bring a report back in March 2024 to this committee and then, as I said, the changes will hopefully be implemented in a 10 July 2024, but there are some interesting things, there is a recommendation that should only be one.
scrutiny Committee, which may or may not sit comfortably with you, but that's the recommendation that it is they've come up with, they've also talked about trying to pool.
of scrutiny here, rather than necessarily having everybody on it, because there's obviously problems worth getting the call rate at James saw they are also looking at saying that people should be paid better for coming along as well to make it was well.
the there's also pre-decision enquiries they are recommending that more pre-decision enquiries are carried out, which I think most of us would probably think was a good idea, rather than looking back at what may or may not have happened in WYCA we would be asked to look at things before,
became in before WYCA so that they had the quality assurance that Scrutiny had been satisfied that all risks had been taken into consideration and all other factors were taken in and there's a whole list of them, but I'm not going to go through them through them all so with that said Joe Allen, do you want to pick up on anything that I've said?
yeah, thank you, thank you Chair, so yes, the the Level 4 Framework
Alan Reiss - 0:08:44
was published by the government we or other West Yorkshire Combined Authority as a current what's called level 3 in the devolution framework is eligible to apply for Level 4.clearly we, it was only published on Wednesday, so we are digesting digesting it all we have to right back to government by the end of January setting out if the Combined Authority wants to.
take up this opportunity and then there will be a process that that follows in terms of the specific points that you you made around the powers and so on.
it what was announced on Wednesday wasn't directly new powers for specific areas in respect of West Yorkshire, some other deals were announced for other parts of the country you may have seen like Greater Lincolnshire, and so on, what is essentially been published as a menu in the Combined Authority now needs to write back and say what it would like.
the particular nuance with the north-east is that when the last north-east devolution was deal, the devolution deal was done to expand from the North of Tyne to the rest of the north-east.
in that the government made a commitment that when that deal was signed sealed and delivered, they would enter into negotiations on a trailblazer, so that's why that that's articulated on was articulated on Wednesday is that when the north-east deal goes through, they will move into slightly more advanced conversations. I'm not clear that it puts them kind of further ahead than where West Yorkshire is, but that's the that's why there's a particular difference for the for the north-east is because the government had previously committed to enter into trailblazer conversations with them, the bit that is different for West Yorkshire compared with say Greater Manchester and the West Midlands is that Greater Manchester in the west, midst who have already got trailblazer status? There was an MoU published which sets out how the single settlement would work, which is where, instead of having a variety of different funding pots as far as possible it so it's all aggregated into one which gives the local area more freedom.
in the Level 4 Framework, which West Yorkshire has the opportunity to apply for, it would over time move to that scenario where and and in particular, there's an offer for the the pots of money which are currently the either come to us, from the Department for levelling up housing communities or transport that they would be collated into a single pot in the near in the kind of near return.
so that's it in, thus, in summary, did you want to say, or do you want to add anything, who not only?
and it's at the way we cannot digest in what he's actually saying and
Patrick Bowes, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:11:32
Carla talking to her colleagues and in our constituent local authorities, about what that actually means, and obviously I've got quite a bit of work to do if we're going to progress with you know getting are getting something back by the end of January so that works taking place now will kick-start that work over the coming weeks.Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:11:53
they got briefed myself up at 3.00 yesterday afternoon by college show I'm trying to catch up with Israel, which I did Luke in the budget papers, but I didn't see it clearly so because I was looking to do so because I know that candidate been contributing to the Scrutiny one and I was just trying to find out what happened but I struggled to be honest to find where the wording was it must have been somewhere one government watch website but I couldn't find it on the specific one anyway.so that's an update on anybody, any questions on what's being said.
yes.
thank you Chair, and do you know whether you are aware that any mayor or authority have reached and how many have reached for this
Cllr Samantha Harvey - 0:12:36
trailblazer status, and how many haven't thank you?there are two which have got trailblazer status, which is Greater
Alan Reiss - 0:12:45
Manchester and the West Midlands in terms of how many combined authorities there will now be across the country.I think it's 14, there are 10 at the moment.
there were a few more that we mentioned, there were announced on Wednesday, but a combination of mayoral combined authorities and county combined authorities, so I'm not sure of the exact, do you know, I'm sure I'm not sure of the exact figure it so, but it's around 14 or 15 it will be around 14 or 15 now, so there are some so for instance, there's the York North Yorkshire election which takes place in May which would take us up to 11
and then there's send some other sorry yeah, and then there's the East Midlands one, and then there were some other announcements made Greater Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, etc Lancashire, but some of those, not all of those emerald, some of them are off of a county,
yeah, OK.
Alan Reiss - 0:13:47
I'm sorry Chair, I do apologise, sorry, could we just pick up one final point on your the process that you set out on the responding to the scrutiny protocol, because I didn't quite say this is that what's what's absolutely central to the offer from government on greater funding flexibilities, powers et cetera,is is greater accountability and scrutiny, and so the Scrutiny protocol and you've set out some of what what what that includes. There's a range of commitments that are in very clear, which are about strengthening the role of scrutiny. It also talks about the role of MPs playing a greater role in the work of the Combined Authority in terms of scrutiny. It was just to mention really, that absolutely welcome the working group that will be set up, which we stand ready to provide full support to over the next couple of months.
the all, ultimately, the decision around how and how it will operate in the future needs to go back to the Combined Authority itself, which, on that timetable, I would expect to be the GM in May, but that will need where we need to like you, we are digesting it so we need to need to work out what the timescale was like, thank you
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:15:08
can I just check the everyone's happy that we are going to set up this working group, the ones yeah yeah, that's been approved yet so third time, lucky as let she.Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:15:25
made the assumption that everyone has read the papers and we don't necessarily need to go through it, so just draw out the important factors, thank you.thank you very much Chair.
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:15:34
so that the paper here is.quite a lot of background information for bringing, hopefully bring you up to date with where we are and the salient.
6 Budgets and finance
ingredients that we need to be looking at in terms of developing the budget we've in line with similar timescales, 2 tier and local authorities, we are taking a budget paper in February for approval that will be accompanied with the business plan we take the two together, so the budget clearly needs to be
set in a way that supports a business plan objective, so the two will come together in February.
we have a
a staging post in effect on the way in December and will be down to the Combined Authority, with the highlights of what we expect to be in the budget paper in February highlights some of the challenges pressures attend to some of the decisions that will have to be made, I think it almost goes without saying that this is an extremely,
as I say this every year, and I can't believe it almost feels it even harder this year setting budgets but the general funding situation, the economic challenges are immense, I know you are all having difficult budget conversations back in your own local authorities and and we're very mindful of that and and the role of the Combined Authority in in that in that process so so to that end the paper here sets out.
information that I believe you have requested, I won't go through it, as the Chair said, we will, we will assume you have read it, but it does.
start at the beginning and effect with the
what the budget position was coming into this financial year, where we have ended up for the financial year
both on capital and revenue,
the in-year budget reporting, which goes to our finance resources and corporate committee, a reassurance that there's nothing as yet untoward has cropped up that has put additional pressure on our budgets this year.
there is information there on the
gainshare approvals, which have been was part of the mayoral devolution, we got an un ring, fenced, gainshare funding, both capital and revenue, and that is for the combined authority to determine how we spent so there's a bit of an update there on where that money has been going, some of it has gone to local authorities and some have been supporting cost of living and cost of doing business crisis.
commit to a range of other projects that otherwise we would not have been able to do in West Yorkshire, because we had no funding for them at this. Reaffirmation of the transport levy, which is one of the core pieces of income, and the decision that was taken in October by the Combined Authority to refund. In effect, the Transport Fund reserve, which wasn't has not been needed to date but will be in the future, and it gives a little bit of a position on our reserves as they were at the start of the year and some information on borrowing
I will pause there, I think probably.
make sense to any questions and comments what we usually do with Scrutiny Committee for those actually been Chair, wants to follow the same model as before, we do usually have a more detailed session and to look at the actual budget, obviously ahead of it going in February.
so if there are things you'd like to see in that session, if there are questions you'd like answered in that forum or in the final paper back to the Combined Authority, absolutely happy to
to hear what you'd expect us to be looking at what you'd expect to see and any questions to clarify in here.
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:19:16
freeway whether they are relaxed to remind everyone, is that we do have Schaeffer at Scrutiny Board to look into things like transport, etc so if we can try and not scrutinise areas that are scrutinised by other committees.I just uproot that warning out there, but there's nobody more guilty of causing me show.
so I'll give a degree of latitude, but so who wants to ask the first question?
Samantha
Cllr Samantha Harvey - 0:19:48
thank you, Chair Angela just want to know, on page 16 about the refund of the transport levy and though it's about transport, but it's the finance, so these money gone back to local authority, will they be going back to the capital reserve or we can allocate it to the revenue reserve as we wish in in the years to come or we have to actually keep it, as I am completely sit in case that in the future days will be called that.the authority then.
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:20:16
now I understand that Christian it the the money goes back to the local authorities for them to determine how they want to deploy it, and we will need funding to support the Transport Fund in effect. What we what we had was an original that the transport fund goes back to 2014 was part of the original City Deal that was a precursor to the Combined Authority and there was government funding put into that and we had to make our local contribution the way we did that with agreement with thethe then finance directors and leaders and chief executive of local authorities was to be building up a reserve, so it was a steady build-up from the transport levy every year, so it didn't become one big ask one year and then less the next year it was to manage those peaks and troughs and in reality the delivery programme has been slower than expected, partly because of other funding that has come in. That has had more time constraints. We've had to prioritise that, so the reserve has built up
we haven't needed it at that level, so we've revised it down, it will continue to build up, we will continue the mechanism that we have setting aside money each year from the transport levy at calculations on the continuing to build it back up we start to consume it in the next couple of years so we are hoping the reserve.
almost it comes in, it goes out and it becomes a sort of steady state, so there is still a need for local authorities to contribute, but that that sum of money is in effect released back for them to to do as they wish and very aware of Councillor Walsh on my right York have a separate arrangement that we have protected through this so the money York has paid in remains and there is a lovely legal agreement that sets out to ensure we all get our fair shares out of that.
Cllr Samantha Harvey - 0:22:07
just looking at how we be able to help the reserve and how it is under the invested and are performed and the local authority. We all know that is getting harder for us to manage our own budget, but to contribute to this lump sum and in in a few years' time coming into combat is because the money is coming from us, so we are struggling with the cash. The reserve itself could do a lot good and grateful people locally, so how can the Kabul authorities justify? This is a levy at the level of the levy has to be calculated and I think it should be more accurate figure for the local authority to contribute. Instead of having this refund the money back as good, but however it should be gone in the first place. Thank younow that's good point we are, we were all aware that that reserve was
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:22:53
building up and, unfortunately, we are dependent on some of the forecasting figures which showed some quite significant spend against it across all partners. The transport fund is delivered by Combined Authority and the and the partners. We have been reviewing our finance directors. We have agreed will make sure there is a close scrutiny of our reserves level as part of budget setting each year and an opportunity for local authorities to to confirm that they're comfortable with that level. The rest of the levy is being spent in year on providing a bus services, concessionary travel, bus stations, et cetera,but we have a piece of work on reserves that we will be sharing with finance directors in local authorities in the next few weeks to ensure they're comfortable with the level they are now at.
thank you, my first, which has already been answered, my second question is just in terms of the medium outlook in terms of the capital programme, and obviously I take you, you have to be trying to digest the information from the often statement, how confident are you that those figures are as accurate as possible bearing in mind that canopy instabilities we're seeing in an officer with a run-up to obviously possible a general election,
how come due out in terms of the mid short term, probably more comfortable how it comes through in terms of the mid to long-term and
Cllr Paul Wray - 0:24:14
the capital programme is actually deliverable within the financial envelope you've got and what other risks have you maybe not highlighted in the report that you think is something that we need to take into consideration that you may have not highlighted?Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:24:31
so we have a significant capital programme. Over recent years, the the volume of capital relative to revenue has increased massively and that brings its pressures. There are probably two major pressures on that, a lot of the funding we already know they've been agreements from government that the city region sustainable transport settlement. We know what that money is, the transforming citizens fund. We've got that we know what that funding is. The challenge is a combination of costs remaining within budget and we took two reports, I think last yearto
report on the impact of inflation on the programme,
the longer programmes sit there, the worse inflation impact on it, and there was a review of the Transport Fund and transforming cities fund where a number of projects were paused or broken into phases.
recognising that inflation, it was always built in, there's always a a, an allowance for contingency and risk, but the inflation rates last year, particularly how it was affecting our construction, meant that in effect, as you as you ask, the the programmes were unaffordable, so there have been steps taken to to review that.
there is a question about deliverability just in terms of people and the and suppliers, and and I think we're very aware that this in everything the current authority does is partnership with local authorities.
while you are struggling to resource everything, you need to do that impact on your capital delivery impact on our capital delivery. So we are very aware that it is hard to get all the right people to fund them, so we've tried to make sure that in our capital programmes we have allowed that it covers staffing costs so that that shouldn't be a barrier to local authorities being able to deliver their projects. But the reality is that some hasn't just not enough of the right people to go round everywhere so that so there are risks from the inflation of the actual cost of the project. There's risks around the deliverability. There's probably also risks of other funding popping up. That is time limited and that's been quite a difficult one. To manage
where there are bidding rounds, but they have to be spent in the next year, 18 months, which puts other projects slightly to the side because people have to be mobilised to deliver the new projects first, so I think there are risks on the plus side there has been a lot of work happening to develop the project, I think from the the mayoral election onwards which sort of saw some of the this injection of funding.
we'd been going through the the early stages at a slower that don't have the biggest spend attached about designing up projects, but a lot more getting into delivery now, and that's hopefully that's where the big spend tends to happen once it's contracted, they do tend to run quite well it's just getting to that point of having everything lined up getting the contractors in.
so I think we're cautiously
domestic might not be the word we are.
we we assert we, we hope we will get the the the closer to the figures and I think we've been getting better over the last couple of years collectively, I think we have all invested in making sure we've got the right people got the funding in the right place and there is ambition to deliver a lot next year and the following year.
every year, just just two quick follow-ups, so in terms of the inflationary pressure you're building in terms of staffing.
Cllr Paul Wray - 0:27:56
and contract costs. Do you think that set the right level, bearing mongering or higher inflationary position, and take it aside the Government's aspirations of getting inflation back down to 2%? We've obviously seen higher inflation for longer, and the secondary question, obviously reading the report, that are quite a lot of the borrowing facilities, gone via Leeds City Council in terms of its local borrowing, wait rates in terms of the long-term projection for local authority borrowing, particularly there's an emphasis on on Leeds, helping with that facility what conversations have happened with the finance team alerted the council to make sure that any potential risks they see in terms of their borrowing ability have been built into those future calculations.I think it's a very good question on what we in what we are assuming
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:28:40
on inflation going forward, and I think I'll take that back and will explain that better when we bring the full capital forecast with you and be clear what allowance has been made for inflation on, say its salaries, contractors and and prices.in terms of the treasury management arrangements, she said they are done through a service level agreement with Leeds Council, their team there, we, we'd co-design, the strategy they signed off here, they undertake the borrowing, and I'm putting monies on deposit for us, which you'll have seen elsewhere in the paper we have had some income.
higher than originally budgeted income from.
bank interest, which we are putting towards subsidising the capital programme, and it is insufficient for the capital programme and the Leeds team, have a lot of experienced borrowing and putting money out on deposit, I think we have a good track record with them, so I think we're quite confident that that shouldn't cause us any problems going forward.
thank you Chair, just recognising the specifics with York.
I think it would be helpful if I could meet with Angela to go through those rather than bring those questions here, but I appreciate that
Cllr Andrew Waller (York Council) - 0:30:02
that may seem a geographical anomaly, but I think it is important to acknowledge that there shouldn't be hard boundaries, particularly with transport, and so I think in the general debate I'm quite happy to contribute, but I think that there are some very parochial issues that we might deal with separately chairs.Cllr Bob Felstead - 0:30:27
morning page 16, section 2.3 1, which Councillor Harveys already talked about.I totally support what you're doing here, but I'm trying to understand the rationale given that I've had lots of people writing to me.
one specific route, so I know that's one of the mayoral policies to improve tram transport infrastructure, to drive the economy forward, it just seems like we've ignored that fact and.
return the money to local authorities instead of investing in the transport, so could you explain the rationale behind the decision?
thank you you, you are, you are correct, it was a reserve that could
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:31:11
have been and there were there were, there were choices about what to do with it, the Combined Authority took their decision.and in the light of various factors, including that the pressure on bus services, but also the pressure on local authorities.
and it was, it was their decision to make, and there there were choices this way, this was the route taken on bus, we have had some additional funding from government, as we have had the bus service improvement plan, the visit money that has been further supplemented by government we have also been putting some.
some savings we've managed to make on our concessionary travel scheme, we have also put aside so we have had a little bit of a fighting fund for for bus, which we hope will help ensure we can deliver more bus services over the next, at least the next few years but ultimately said there were there were choices to be made, the Combined Authority made this as a
and the the the paper goes into a bit more detail, that the Combined Authority considered and but this was very much a viewed as a unique.
unique set of circumstances leading to and the decision that they chose.
question on
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:32:38
period paragraph 2.4 page 8 the item said West Yorkshire Plus Transport Fund.you are spending more than you budgeted, which is welcome, though it should not get it wrong, but if you had taken some of that reserve that you've just given back to local authorities and again you would have ended up on a balanced budget there.
we do have then enabled some other part of WYCA to maybe fund something else. Now an example of that could be in brownfield housing. All of us around here would argue that we need more housing, and if we could find a way of levering in this brutalities, it is the totality. So, in other words, you're taking it, you're putting it back into the Transport Fund, but money that you maybe have the choice to spend in a transport fund could have then been passed to something else or, in other words, you use the transport fund, money is provided for transport and you use the flexible funding that was given. There was there any reason why that wasn't done so? In other words, you bring it back to 100% spend effectively. There was any reason why that wasn't done
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:33:53
I think your questions made me realise that paragraph 2.4 shows what we spend, but it doesn't show all the funding against it because we have more funding that could have been spent. So there is another figure set aside and I'll make sure we come back, we usually show the spend and the funding, because there is there is further funding, had all these projects been able to spend more, pretty much all of them had funding, but I accept that's not in the paper, so you know you were that that was a good challenge and the in terms of the the Transport Fund reserve that was very specifically created from the transport levy. So from our purposes it could only be used for transport purposes, and that takes us into the the challenges of we call it help one single investment potwe have an awful lot of funding that is ring fenced for certain purposes, so the brownfield housing that we're spending is a specific funding stream from government for brownfield housing that is dedicated to it can only be spent on brownfield housing, we don't have anything else. We could add to that unless we took it from the gainshare funding, which is the only and ring-fenced funding. We've got to what I was saying is about what you know, you're looking at the
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:35:03
totality of your budget, you've allocated some funding, that's got no strings attached to various budget heads. That's a choice by the Combined Authority. That's fine, and while I was arguing, is that maybe we should have looked at how we can you can use the budget you've been granted because it's very unusual in the current circumstances, for any government department governing body to say all we've got too much, we'll give it back again, it is very, very unusual because most of the time people are saying we've not got enough, we need more, no, that's not criticism existwith the public argue that it was better spent by yourself on something that I think most pop members of the public would agree, that we need to do something about the transport system in West Yorkshire or whatever else is going to get spent on. I accept that if I was in control of Leeds, I might not necessarily be arguing that same point, because you can then utilise it more effectively, but we are here to scrutinise to make sure that WYCA are maximising the investment but fine approach. No teacher, you've probably noticed what I said yeah, Councillor Ray, I think it comes to a general point here about how we communicate with each thing, because it's all well and good for us to be sat here in these meetings and we can have this conversation for the average person in the public moneys money
Cllr Paul Wray - 0:36:26
and actually, when they saw those headlines in all the local authorities, that money would go back, no one, apart from maybe if you sat in the Council Chamber or Scrutiny with a local authority, explained this money legally was for this illegal can only be spent for this and therefore it can only legally go back in really simple terms. They seem muddy is money which we need to get better explaining monies, not money there's pops with impossibly thin pots and how we articulate that because otherwise it raises questions like you have. Well, why can't expedite this while legally car? It has to go back to the forest, but how do you explain that in a way that we get it very quickly as elected members, when we've got hundreds of e-mails coming in, but also the people we represent doing well adopt a bus, so why didn't you spend it on that?Cllr Susan Lee-Richards - 0:37:19
thank you, can I just ask about the brownfield housing fund, as the Chair mentioned, it sounds quite a considerable underspend, why did that not get used in the current period, thank you, the brownfieldAngela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:32
housing fund was a pot of funding that came from government with some very tight timescales and some veryhi.
not standard requirements for how it needed to be spent, it's one, it's taken a while to mobilise because of the very specific and narrow way it could be used, a lot of work has gone into.
try and get the set-up, and there's a lot more happening in the current year,
certainly the team are we, you should see the the matching figure when we sat next summer, you should see a significant increase in spend on it is that slow start to many programmes while you get from a standing start heating money or what do we do with it designing up the programmes getting private sector involved because this isn't just being delivered through local authorities and then the spend hits in a much bigger slug towards the end so we are cautiously
optimistic that we will get that money spent in the timescales we've got, thank you, thank you Chair.
sorry for last sentence almost answered my question, which was when
Cllr Alun Griffiths - 0:38:37
people talk about times tight timescales and high requirements, and you always worry about the fact that we actually will not be possible to spend the money, is there any risks that any of the government funding is going to not be spent and have to return to government and loss of authority?as he is a risk we live with almost all the time and we do our best within them.
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:39:00
sort of limited set of freedoms and flexibilities to move funding around as best we can, but it is very hard with some of the very, very narrowly defined projects. We haven't just thinking before I commit myself to this line. We haven't we've not yet had to pay anything back to government that has often been as we got towards the end of particularly large or difficult programmes. The the relationship we have has been such that we've been able to say it's in contract, it's happening, some spend might just fall over the wrong side of the year end, but to all intents and purposes, committed with delivering what was requiredand that has has fell on receptive ears, and we do prepare the way forward if we see that's likely to happen, it is extremely difficult to mobilise a big programme of spend and bring it neatly, to an end on the 31st of March in a particular year we do our best but,
the most of our programmes have had a little bit of spend afterwards, which has been accepted, so we, we hope, not we hope to continue not having to repay anything a good argument for the single pot, isn't it?
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:40:08
she has a good sorry, just brief, to come back then, because you obviously, and I'm always kept to take that as a qualified, yes, thereCllr Alun Griffiths - 0:40:16
is a risk, because you spoke about the funding in general in respect of this particular art, which is significantly underspent currently assets as bedrooms vary higher than the problems you have are more difficult than in other parts and,I mean clearly we can't predict the future, we'll all be lottery millionaires, but the there will be concern, I suspect there is a greater risk with that pot than any of the others on your Capital list.
Cllr Samantha Harvey - 0:40:46
thank you Chair, just follow up this brownfield as issue at the funding that has been underspend, I understand last time you have explained that we have some problem with the present as we as struggle with recruitment, and that's the reason why the strategy itself has not even been developed so how we still have the same problem when we are difficult to recruit the right people to deal with the funding.recruitment has been an issue in many of our ambitions. I think they
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:41:14
have still be some difficulties. There is a team there doing a sterling job and making this happen and, as I said, we are hoping that most of it, most of it, is now committed. There's a final 20 if they've just gone through about to go through the final set of projects, so we are obviously I think, to Councillor Booth's point. Yes, there is probably a higher risk around this, probably worth noting thatwe do, can we do look at what's happening in other Combined Authority areas everyone is in.
Everyone is having their challenges with this, which gives us a little bit of comfort, but I think if we're outliers that we're the only people not able to deliver proper increases, the risk, I think, if everybody is having similar challenges, it makes us feel a little more comfortable that there should be a little bit of a little bit of flex around the end of that project.
so I think I'll bring flat item to cut the final thing, I'd say it,
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:42:09
you've mentioned about the workshop where you'll be able to explain the new, but the next budget have you any approximate timescales yet so people can get it in the diary we could.Khalid Ra regularly advises me that one of his major problems is trying to get members of scrutiny throughout the whole of life, and not necessarily at this board alone.
two meetings during that, the quicker we get in our diary, the quicker we will know whether or not we can or can or cannot make that meeting, we haven't asked you to give us an answer. St Deech is now what we're saying is, can you get back to Callard with a timescale so that we can get down even pencilled into our diaries so that if something comes along because back in our own Council there's always other meetings popping up?
and it gets very difficult, sometimes it's not criticism because we want you to speak to us, but we need to make ourselves available, we need to know in advance so that we can make ourselves available for you.
7 Gateway Review update
I bow and thank you very much for the report that you've prepared, thank you, there has been no move on to the next item, I think it gave a paper breakthrough.
item 7.
but who's leading it's got
Sarah, you are,
are you leading on this
UK yeah
Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:43:40
20 pressure button, it's OK, as you see, I forget, to do as well.Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:43:45
sorry, I basically the paper is just a kind of given a progress updateSarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:43:49
on the 2024 gateway review, the aunts gonna talk us through what is quite a detailed and quite challenging process.Anna Woodhouse - 0:44:01
thank you, Sarah, thank you Chair good morning everybody, yeah, so to begin with, this is the second gateway review.that we have undertaken for the Transport Fund is the first one for the gainshare, and it's a new process this year, so we received the guidance from government in late January with the first milestones in in April May, so it's a very rigorous process that was very time-bound.
because it's a new process this year we've had to adapt to that one and we're treating it as a project at present, so we've got a project manager and a project officer supporting the operational side, but the intention is to move towards business as usual and we're planning for this now and capturing lessons learned throughout
but it is a new process, so as satisfies the the paper provides updates on governance risks and issues, communications activity and stakeholder engagement.
so starting with governance arrangements, the the project bod and shows fading and shared ownership from key stakeholders as well as strategic steer.
and this is really important in mitigating risks, providing assurance to government that the process is in hand and supporting wider stakeholder engagement, as noted in the paper effective, comes, is really crucial.
in in engaging colleagues and partners to help them to lower salaries, though it does require feeding from a really diverse set of stakeholders.
the paper also provides an update on the local evaluation framework, this is a detailed technical plan that has enabled us to move forward with work for the mid-term review and the tender process for the final evaluation, so we are out to tender at the moment for the final evaluation and the local evaluation framework is a document that sets out the detail what data we need to capture, what's the methodology, what's our sample sizes, et cetera, et cetera,
so works well underway for the mid term, and I'll pause there and invite questions.
everybody agrees on.
thank you Chair. Just wonder the timeline for these allegations, the
Cllr Samantha Harvey - 0:46:36
procurement process and the procedures, or when do you and his visitAnna Woodhouse - 0:46:43
to be completed? Thank you. We need to submit all the evidence to the government appointed consultants ESCO, w, by August next year, so really we're expecting the the mainstay of the evaluation work to be completed by July to give us a chance to process all of that and then prepare the documents for submission. So the processes that we undertake the evaluation, it's it's quite a prescriptive process in terms of we have to. We have to develop develops our local evaluation framework in line with the national evaluation framework, and we've been given templates for each of the evidence papers that needs to be submitted. We've been provided with steer on how we need to undertake the process, the different streams and so when it comes to that final reporting point, we'll be gathering all our of our evidence papers together we submit them to ESCO wan in-depth independent evaluation panel, they then synthesize all of the evaluation reports and they then produce a final report that they submit to the government with their thoughts and recommendations.
that come back to scrutiny after it with the final report issued, does
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:47:58
that come back to Scrutiny so that we can have a look to see to satisfy ourselves that you've done everything correctly?we are happy to bring it back, that one thing that I or when I was getting my briefing I talked about, is the critical success factors so know what we've seen, what the money is being spent on, but what was the objectives of it and have the done it have regenerated everything whatever number of jobs who said we would do have we communicated effectively with whatever community we were targeting art when are they included in the process?
Anna Woodhouse - 0:48:40
yes, are the evaluation process is focused chiefly on evidencing economic outcomes, so increased growth and productivity, and we can do that in several ways, so some of that will be through.interviewing or surveying local businesses that are perhaps located nearby. Some of our major interventions such as Wakefield Eastern relief fraud. There will also be residents, the that may be survey to understand what the impact has been for them, it for the impact evaluations. We also are required to apply a counterfactual method, which is essentially what would have happened if we didn't build that road or if we didn't provide that skills support, which is obviously very challenging to do so. That is the most robust level of evaluation that you can do. We all know that it's very challenging to do that, but essentially what we're doing is we're going to pursue several lines of inquiry, several methodologies concurrently and then we would triangulate those different strands of evidence to try and tell a story, and one of the the main ways that we do that is through something called contribution analysis, so where we might not be able to prove direct causality, we we galvanise all of the evidence and try and say this is likely to have had this impact
I just wanted to give what d' you would expect a final report to be in
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:50:11
the public domain, respectful will come to come to us before or after when we do expect HDU them to put it in the public domain their final report, I'd have to come back to you on that actually in terms of the public domain can can I come back.it did it
just so that we can hold people to account, you said you would deliver X.
you've only delivered x minus 10% that may have been a very good reason why the 10% wasn't achieved just so that people could understand it, because we're effectively acting on behalf of the residents out there, and we should be asking questions which shows our residents are satisfied, I understand and it's a very good question I
Anna Woodhouse - 0:50:58
think that at the moment I'll be honest, Samsa mired in the process that I haven't thought beyond Scott I'll I'll I'll check you throughin fact, we will have consulted with askew w every any other questions, yes, sorry, just to watch just to what we, we have
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:51:14
published an impact evaluation so.Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:51:17
the various elements of the evaluation includes also looking at the second five years of the Transport Fund.the Transport Fund in its original iteration as part of the original gross deal, and there were both transport and non-transport elements, so we published an impact evaluation which is in the public domain of the non transport elements that was published in late 2020 early 2020 21. This is obviously a document that will then be given to governments. I think that they think the thing to make clear is is is that we have traditionally a track record of when we can't publish that information, we will publish that information, so just to provide that sort of reassurance
no, thank you Chair.
Anna Woodhouse - 0:52:02
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:52:11
Sarah Eaton, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:52:56
yeah, I think just to just to outline one of the benefits of the level 4 framework is that the gateway review is is kind of after the first year the gateway review falls off so so in terms of moving forward with proposals perhaps under one new devolution deal, that is something that then gives us a bit more flexibility, I think in terms of that that kind of gateway review process so that's something else just to think about.right in that case we can now move, I thank you very much.
8 Corporate Scrutiny Work Programme
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:53:23
so we can now move on to item 8, which is the scrutiny programme reported coloured, do you want to go through this as your report?because I know that you've got some questions as well, when are you sure?
is particularly well or what it is, we've got the Mayor's question coming up. It sets aside for a three hour meeting at the moment, do you want to see our meeting, or do you just want to concentrate purely on the Mayor's question because no words do we get officers to prepare an additional report over and above the Mayor's question time, and that would mean that the meeting would last for three hours or do you want just to have the Mayor's question chain, which means there's no need for any specific reports to be commissioned in time? So what's your general view on that?
yeah, Councillor Ray, I suppose it's more of common lack, rather than then the view I mean, we have a limited number of meetings as it is,
Cllr Paul Wray - 0:54:38
and therefore as much as questioning the Mayor is all well and good, there is still business to be done and with such a limited number of meetings, I'm sure we've all sat in meetings that are longer than three hours, even if you just need to be up at 9.55 minute comfort break in the middle, we don't have that many meetings, so to lose a meeting and therefore have it all, loaded into another meeting, is probably gonna make that other meeting that follows unwieldly and long anyway,Minister, year.
Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:55:15
what do Members want to cover them, because we are obviously meetingMr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:55:55
in January in a meeting in March, and there's a few things on the shortlist in the appendix.Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:55:59
which haven't been put this stuff, which will obviously we looked atMr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:56:05
last line at last time at this time, so what?Cllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:56:12
do you think by that came, you will have been well, you should hopeCllr Barry Anderson (Chair) - 0:56:18
for him in January, I've distilled down the outcomes of what happened the other day, is there anything that you could bring to it in terms of what, if or how you see the future going for the Combined Authority is that something that you could bring to us so that we can get a practical note effectively on what was agreed or announced on Wednesday?Alan Reiss - 0:56:40
yes, we can have a I. I suggest the committee takes a further item on deeper devolution. That's properly agenda. Clearly we had a bit of a conversation at the beginning of the meeting, but it was a without a paper that the time passing to the 19th of January gives us an opportunity to make sure that everybody's got sight of the various documents that were that were published under, and a paper on the potential implications for the combined authority is also a short period before we have to write to government so yeah, it is quite helpful timing yeah- Item 4 - CSC Minutes (22 Sept 2023) FINAL, opens in new tab
- Item 6 - Budgets and finance, opens in new tab
- Item 6i - Forecast outturn 22 23, position Nov 23, opens in new tab
- Item 6ii - Appendix 2 revenue budget 23 24, opens in new tab
- Item 6iii - Appendix 3 Capital, opens in new tab
- Item 6iv - Appendix 4 Gainshare, opens in new tab
- Item 6v- Appendix 5 Treasury Management Statement, opens in new tab
- Item 7 - Gateway Review Update FINAL, opens in new tab
- Item 7i - App 1 - Schemes in Scope, opens in new tab
- Item 7ii - App 2 - Core Outcome Metrics, opens in new tab
- Item 7iii - App 3 - Project Timetable, opens in new tab
- Item 8 - Corporate Scrutiny Work Programme, opens in new tab
- Item 8a - Scrutiny Work Programmes 2023-24 v3, opens in new tab
