Governance and Audit Committee - Monday 16 October 2023, 11:00am - Feedback Tab - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance and Audit Committee
Monday, 16th October 2023 at 11:00am

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Speaking:

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Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

1 Apologies for Absence

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2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

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3 Exclusion of the Press and Public

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4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 24 July 2023

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Item 4 Minutes

5 Internal Audit Progress Report

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Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Farhan Khaliq
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

6 External Audit Progress Report

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Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Mark Outterside
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Mark Outterside
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

7 Compliance and Monitoring

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Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Gary Dowson, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

8 Risk Management

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Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

8 Risk Management

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Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

9 Corporate Governance Update

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Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

10 Bus Reform

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Item 10 Bus Reform

Mr Alex Clarke
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Mr Alex Clarke
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Mr Alex Clarke
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Mr Alex Clarke
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
Cllr Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council)
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

1 Apologies for Absence

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

Debbie Simpson - 0:00:00

Charles missing will be live-streamed, so if you start with agenda item 1, which is apologies for absence, I think we've had one apology from Councillor Hinchcliffe, yes and also Joanna one John thank you OK, I agenda item 2 declarations of interest anyone got anything to declare.

3 Exclusion of the Press and Public

no, thank you, gender item 3 at exclusions of the press and public on this one officers have identified that agenda item 8 Appendix 4 contains some acceptance information and they've recommended that the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information they have outlined their reasons in the report that the Committee are asked to consider the officer's recommendation to treat this item as exempt are you in agreements?

yeah lovely, thank you.

4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 24 July 2023

so agenda item 4 is the minutes of the last meeting which were held on the 24th of July, has already got any comments on those.

no, thank you, can we take those who read them please?

5 Internal Audit Progress Report

right so our next item agenda item 5 is the progress on internal audit, I think fine, could I ask you to take us through any key points in the paper, please?

Farhan Khaliq - 0:01:30

thanks to her has stated, we present our regular progress update C into the plan for 23 24 I'll just run through the the appendix in terms of

Page 2, the summary against the are key areas of monitoring bogus members will know that, albeit progress is being made against the yes, the plan, it's not where we would like to be at this stage begin.

we have.

plans and resources in in terms of a planning place to complete the work by the end of the bout, hopefully by the end of the year, and we are positive that the majority of the work will be completed and to give a and audit opinion on an ongoing on our work in terms of pages 3 to 8 the members asked to know

a summary of our work to date, 1 1 Audit report has been issued on on GDP are, which was which was a reasonable assurance rating that was given a positive insurance in terms of the other key areas of work work around Abbey he had an adult education budget that's ongoing 1 1 review has recently been completed, which is looked at on this at this paper.

that was given a minimal assurance rating, and some feedback will be provided at the next next update to the SA to this committee again, the significant amount of work has done, as is being done around counter-fraud activity, which, as Members will not has increased this year again, that's another area where that old counter-fraud officer is who saw it skilled in this area she is she will be leaving the organisation shortly so that's the area that we are with and will have to look at ways of how we manage that piece of work.

so that chimp that's a summary of the work in terms of

at page 8, members will know, as somebody up against our audit plan.

gives some indication of progress.

Work that were completed to date.

in terms of the the actual plan itself, some some of the work has been put back towards quarter 3 and quarter 4, as you will not again stated, we are positive, we should.

be able to complete the majority of the work.

at page 9,

provides Members with the some some indication from some of the work that we do around following Olynyk recommendations.

many Members again will not, there was a significant piece of work that was done last year around transport recommendations.

and that makes up a bulk of the are in progress or outstanding recommendations, that we are working towards working with management to implement those recommendations pitch in terms of page 11 and 12 is some feedback around our performance measures and feedback we received from from clients in terms of the quality of our audit work.

happy to answer any questions chest, thank you, Has anybody got any

Debbie Simpson - 0:04:57

questions on that?

Councillor Scalia

thank you, and thank you for the report and add the focus in terms of work and the absolutely key focuses in terms of things like transport,

Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:05:14

corporate system, cybersecurity, those kinds of things it A B E be absolutely right, but I just wanted to touch on 2.1 on recruitment and you haven't said retention but it's obviously recruitment and retention from what you said Chair habitat on Friday morning I was at the Local government Association because I've been appointed to their improvement and innovation board.

and are questions of recruitment and retention were raised there and a short report was given.

by the Local government Association officers, at the meeting about the new national graduate trainee programme and and some of you from councils will have just taken on a new batch of people that the LGA and the national graduate trainee programme and the London Councils have worked together.

and I don't know the details of the funding it wasn't really appropriate to ask in the meeting they have taken on 50 5 0 national graduate trainees from the programme just left university, from a variety of backgrounds, and they've taken on 50 trainees, and I think the LGA are in fact helping to to fund this.

and they're working with CIPFA jointly with CIPFA as well, and and they are going to best the take these people on and train them to CIPFA Level 7 and there wasn't entirely sure what that was, but and I thought what a good idea because actually it's about short term thinking versus medium and long term thinking.

though not all of these people will be retained, but actually CIPFA Level 7 says that something would be very useful to us in West Yorkshire thought one London Councils, local government associations in London, there were only two northern councils in this meeting I wrote down my back of the envelope.

West Yorkshire Combined Authority, so I I guess, Chair I'm asking whether officers could look into whether maybe a smaller scale scheme, given the relative size, whether there is something longer shall we might have missed the buck for this year, but this is something that the West Yorkshire Combined Authority

CIPFA LGA, and the councils concerned can actually look in terms of trying to get a pipeline of longer term folk.

Debbie Simpson - 0:07:39

thank you for that, that sounds like a really good idea, any of the officers want to comment on that.

yeah thanks very much Councillor scowling.

it sounds like a really interesting programme for us to look into be

Alan Reiss - 0:07:51

really really up for looking at that we are talking to the LGA already about workforce planning, they they do an offer for us, though they make it they have or they have an offer around supporting organisations with workforce planning including graduate programmes, and so we're talking to them about that we're also exploring with the inclusive growth network some whether they are keen to explore around grant programmes to

in in terms of into laureate, specifically, I think we're we're we're looking at a kind of both or a recriminatory, at least two levels, the first is.

recruiting people who have already qualified and bringing in that expertise but at the same time recognising that actually a different approach would be to ask to recruit people who are pre-qualification and enabling them to develop their qualifications here, which that programme that he'd prefer to, but,

help with Do you wanna everything for him?

that has definitely been the definitely the skills gap, we will look

Farhan Khaliq - 0:08:52

to helicopter rounds of recruitment where we are.

I have not been able to attract the DA candidates rats skill sets.

part of the, I think there will be a proposal coming forward and we had the Head of Audit, is working on a revised business plan, not only for the the team as itself, but it also, as I mentioned, in terms of attracting qualified people as but as well as equally having a programme of training.

we can bring a new crude cruise flaccid begets upskill them, and so so that that will hopefully be brought to this committee at the point when that piece of work is completed.

Debbie Simpson - 0:09:36

thank you any other questions on Councillor Lane, thank you, Chair, just on the fraud section, I just wonder if you could add to two questions is that?

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:09:54

normal is not of the right word, but is it on parity with with other similar?

authorities and how what's the opportunity for us to follow through, I appreciate it will be able to tell us about ongoing investigations, but what's the the opportunity for us to follow through when those investigations are concluded and understand what happened and why and what we can, what we can learn.

Debbie Simpson - 0:10:16

Farhan Khaliq - 0:10:20

thanks terms of benchmarking against other local authorities, we haven't actually done that piece of work, but that's something we could look at in terms of.

fraud investigator, I think part of it is, I think.

some of that is around proactive fraud work where

for example, the bud the whistleblowing outlines, there's some some PR members of the public or even internally that the stats that's being used more, but it's been.

it has in terms of

it's that that's available to do to report issues.

penny equally some some of that is where the officers of referred issues to ourselves, but in terms of or in terms of trends.

this Saturday desperate, just sort of analyzed in terms of what we're where we have been with previous years in terms of whether it's an ongoing and increasing area of offer of focus and in terms of, and also our work, so it's difficult to see at the moment but I mean in terms of reporting back,

that's something that we could look at and bring forward in terms of what sort of information you want this.

for some of the outcomes from these days so reviews.

so happy for happy to happy, to take back any suggestions.

Debbie Simpson - 0:11:54

thank you, I think that's a good suggestion, Pacific China benchmark, it will give us a feel for how we compare to others, something that will be useful if you could do that, please.

any other questions from members no sockets a couple if we may please, we've got quite a long list of outstanding audits, and I know you've had carry forward in previous years because he'd been in a similar position in terms of resource and just wondering how this committee can gain assurance that the most important areas are being looked at first.

constraint, so that a valid question.

Farhan Khaliq - 0:12:34

the plan was a part of the planning around the plan, as taken precedent in terms of

when we, when it's best to carry out the reviews in terms of office officer, availability and also in terms of when like, for example, if you look at the finance system when we only got suitable one

transactions that you could actually review, but I take the point that maybe at this stage of my medical foxman, those areas that are higher risks

a and and completing those first, so it might be a case of going back and looking at the plan is prioritising some of that some of them are pieces of a piece of work.

Debbie Simpson - 0:13:20

thank you and co it, can you of Plan B rapid rates, it may be also have something in Nessa that we understand that you've done that piece of work.

Farhan Khaliq - 0:13:33

site, the main in terms of completion of insert in terms of actually

Debbie Simpson - 0:13:37

looking at the priority, wants to the priority ones can be identified in the report rather than just being a long list.

Farhan Khaliq - 0:13:44

they are happy to do that position back and will bring forward to the

Debbie Simpson - 0:13:49

next Committee, Councillor Lamb yeah, just and laughing at the

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:13:52

beautiful tragic couple of columns to the table, just to sort of say, When do we think it's due to be completed and perhaps to have it RAG rated as well so we can easily see at a glance?

a, it's overdue and be it's overdue, and we should be worried about it too, because needs to be done.

Debbie Simpson - 0:14:12

I'll be happy to do that Mac accidentally, thank you, and I've got one of the question as well, please, I've just slightly concerned about the transport line on the audit follow up, so it seemed to be a substantial proportion editor overdue, so really to know why and what's happening if you can please,

Farhan Khaliq - 0:14:28

sure, in terms of the transport review that was done last year.

the meeting was held with.

Key officers last week to follow up some of those recommendations,

part of that is

any new officers coming into place within the transport services, so then picking up some of the issues around the the report itself.

secondly, a new ACEA system that's was some of those recommendations reliant on that being implemented and with delays with that implementation, and now that can be forward, I think in November.

so there is the this is a work, is work is ongoing in terms of strategy showing that those implemented, and I think we should be able to bring back a more of an update at the next committee meeting.

in terms of where progress is against those.

recommendation was not, it's not that we haven't.

forgotten about because we are working

of course, he would, with the management within Transport Services, to ensure that those already permitted.

Debbie Simpson - 0:15:38

thank you, because it is said as well he had a follow-up audit plan for October, so sat has that actually been done, or is it plans still for October?

we haven't had a meeting last week's.

Farhan Khaliq - 0:15:51

so that was when there was a follow-up and they've taken back.

and will bring forward a plan in terms of how they are proposing to

Debbie Simpson - 0:16:03

prevent those recommendations, OK, that's lovely so, could we maybe take a bit of a closer look at that next time, it's the position hasn't changed substantially.

I could bring something back next year.

Farhan Khaliq - 0:16:13

it's lovely thank you.

Debbie Simpson - 0:16:17

OK any other questions on that item, no thank you, so we've got a couple of matters there if we can just make sure we don't lose one one around the benchmarking and 1 around exploring opportunities for development, thank you and then if we can just note that that item has been considered.

thank you.

6 External Audit Progress Report

so moving on to agenda item 6, and that's the update on external audit. So Angela is at you, please, it is thank you Chair. This

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:16:45

probably feels a little like the report we brought last time. So just taking it in turn, the 21 22 audited accounts. You saw those much earlier in the year that was substantially complete. I think we have talked about the national issues that are affecting audit and that are contributing to additional work that has been mandated nationally, that is required to conclude the audit. So we are almost there on the re be visiting the final pension items on 21 22 and what had been a delay on the actuary side, who would provide these information

but we are within touching distance, so we hope to get 21 22.

signed off once, we have an update on when the actor is going to be able to provide us some additional information.

because of that, the 20 to 23 audit is is slightly in limbo because we're waiting to finalise 21 22 as a priority, which we've agreed here between ourselves and the auditors.

so the work again is complete, on 22 23 we've prepared the accounts, we are waiting until we finished 21 22 for any knock-on effects to then formally finalise 22 23, and we've been talking to the auditors that there's potentially an opportunity to commence that audit in the new year which is only a couple of months away, however this is probably all swept up a little.

by the financial reporting and auditing local authorities. So 2.9 she said, a brief reminder of the national challenges, and the statement that was issued earlier in the year is attached as the Appendix what we are seeing here is a very similar to every other local authority across the country. I'm sure you've seen in your own I'm not sure any locally have been agreed. Public sector Audit appointments issued an update last week on the audits that had been completed by the end of September, which is the statutory date. There were five nationally

there's a further, and we quote the figures there'd been published, it's not secret, and there are currently 918 delayed audit opinions for 21 22 and 22 23 in local government.

we are a part of that situation and D-lock are still working on a solution to this and are talking about the backstop date, potentially

and finding a means to draw a line under the current outstanding audit, so the focus can be.

on the future. It were expected the consultation on that, so not aware that come out yet about the best way to go about this, but there is, I think, everybody is unhappy. The situation from audit, the audit world and the auditors to local government bodies and finance official Members. Everybody, it's deeply unsatisfactory. Government is trying to find a way to and regulating bodies trying to find a way to solve that, but it won't be without some pain because there simply isn't enough in the system to conclude all those audit in the way that one would would hope

that's where we are in terms of audit.

then included

information on the

slightly slightly bizarrely juxtaposed against that and the audit fees for future audit which again the that this has been trailed a long time, that

the work that should be being done by auditors, the requirements for the dish, the level of assurance that there does need to be a certain level of works, him focus on.

Key areas and that is going to increase the scale of audit fees so that there has been a publication on on this, the final scale fees we expect to have by the time of the next meeting, but we are expecting an increase, as we said in the order of 150% I thought just ask that nationally again this is a national picture tease out the impact on us within that.

so much of this is just to note at this point, but happy if there's any question that we can answer and marks him to give an auditor perspective, if there's anything, you would like to know from Zaha's and connect with what I've said, thank you thank Sandra there are a

Debbie Simpson - 0:21:00

couple of questions but not did you want to add anything before we take the questions I think Angela covered everything.

Mark Outterside - 0:21:07

Debbie Simpson - 0:21:11

quite succinctly, okay, lovely, thank you to Councillor Scully and then Councillor Scott,

Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:21:15

thank you and you may be unsurprised to hear this came up at the o'Chee meet me on Friday Friday as well and.

I could use stronger words, but it's extremely unsatisfactory when he and Michael Gove did actually say, at the Local government Association conference, an annual conference at the beginning of July, he said he was aware of this issue.

he was advising that there would be a solution phoned and applied, no, it sounds as though this backstop date is the solution that he's talking about, but at the moment we have no timetable for when that is consulted upon and then applied, and it seems to me that it's actually not going to be any help for this current situation.

current year, but officers may have a different view, but also I am concerned that if people are working to a backstop date and therefore audits are limited in scope or give limited opinions.

then or modified opinions. That's very unfortunate for look at the local government sector and for some years going back in some cases, actually rather a lot of years as bad for our reputation is bad for the deluxe reputation, and it's altogether unsatisfactory, any deliberate I mean I feel for. I don't often say this, but I do actually feel for the firm's because it's actually bad for the reputation of the firms as well. I understand all the other public sector and health service working, and so on that they do is not good for the reputation of local government or indeed for the firms, so anything kind of reading the rooms in terms of

timetable for the remainder of this municipal year, feeling of when we're going to get this backstop date and the stages that we have to go through ourselves and the firms to actually get these accounts signed off.

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:23:22

so I've been in a number of conversations with FDA's across the combined authorities and locally.

and on the police, I'd actually the there's been lots of discussion, there has been a commitment to bring consultation forward at some pace, but it's still not here

and absolutely everything you've said about reputation, I think there are, there are finance finance officers who are deeply upset by the fact they've had a career where every year they have brought their account their members have there'd been audited, members have approved them and are deeply unhappy that a modified opinion in due course reflect badly.

on on them for having done nothing wrong at all.

I think there's lots of conversation it is difficult to get this brought to a.

to a decision point, consultation has been put forward to say the timescales are quite tight, if the backstop date, which one of them is being proposed, is March. There are others at a later next year, but when mid October it feels quite tight to come up with a solution at a we. We have asked the question of, so some of the rule are the regulatory bodies who were involved in this. Everybody wants to answer, but nobody seems able to to bring it all together with an answer that keeps everybody happy and I suspect

whatever comes out will be unsatisfactory.

probably for every party involved, because it doesn't feel that the the mood music is, there is not enough resource in the audit world to match now the scale of outstanding audit work, there has been discussion about legislative changes to try and reduce some of the work that needed to be done on infrastructure and pensions for example, could that be temporarily suspended because,

forgive me, we spend a lot of time looking at pensions, but it's an awful lot of disclosures and information that doesn't affect the results for the year.

but that takes a does a disproportionate amount of time similar to some of the infrastructure, but again that would take legislative changes that would take time to to get through, so I think we all remain unhappy and we are, we are all doing our best to raise it to reforms we can.

but we were advised, we should see a consultation very, very shortly.

we keep waiting.

Debbie Simpson - 0:25:45

thank you, Chair, I believe, and John may have answered some of this

Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council) - 0:25:54

mine was on a page 23, section 2.1 3, the increase of the fee is too possibly 151%, especially when the paper it actually caveats that recognising the significant financial pressures on all types of local government bodies think it needs a further explanation in detail because generally people won't understand them.

Debbie Simpson - 0:26:15

now I think that's a fair point, a very difficult time to be saying we need to spend more money on something, but it bizarrely is probably

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:26:23

one of the areas you do need the assurance that things are working properly, we'll bring forward next time that the figures of what we're actually paying what you feel looked like in comparison to that what we will get additional and interesting to review may recall the previous years there has been discussing this committed that the audit fees feel a little low for the amount of work that this committee would like the external auditors to be doing so there may be a little bit of redressing that that that balance

but we also need to pick up if the audits don't happen in the way we expect, how does that impact from audit fees so that there's quite a complex world here around putting fees up at a time when, unfortunately, the audit world is not able to deliver the audits that are being asked of it anyway just uncomfortable but this is the essay needs set the scale fee and will go in and let you know a bit more information.

Debbie Simpson - 0:27:16

I just want to got in terms of the scale fee uplift if you think about

Mark Outterside - 0:27:20

it in the context of additional scrutiny on audit additional regulatory pressures on us to deliver in certain areas of the audit.

and fees have gone down since the demise of the Audit Commission, so our workload has gone up, the fees have gone down and there isn't a raft of auditors out there, because obviously there's a correlation.

Debbie Simpson - 0:27:47

thank you any further questions.

yeah, OK, if I can just take that as noted, then please move on to the next item agenda item 7.

7 Compliance and Monitoring

and there are two areas in this report wants to consider any changes to the arrangements for internal control, and the other is to look at the proposed dashboard for this committee, sir Caroline, did you want

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:28:12

to take us through that please, yes, thank you Chair yes, she says,

as all referenced here, there's the first part of this report is just highlighting some of the changes in internal control since the last time the Committee met and 3 3 changes in there, to highlighted from section 2.2 onwards.

the first one is, it is very much an internal changes we had what was called an officer, regulatory and compliance board entirely and officer structure, to look at assurance against internal controls and as part of our move them and our organisational evolution, we have transition that,

still to carry out those functions, but within what we now have, which is a corporate centre management board, that's very much an internal officer change, I suppose the key thing here is that that board is chaired by the chief operating officer and has, Sir, it sets out there at 2.00.2 suddenly has Angela on that and myself and and a range of other key Heads of in this sphere.

part of what we're looking to do as with that is to have that it's very much an oversight board, so when we come on to the compliance dashboard that we've we've we've provided that you know this is the first draft of the governance and audit we have a more detailed dashboard that we look at them at that level, but this is very much about.

are the nowhere of the red flags internally, where do we need to right those linkages back to the rest of the organisation, whether that's upwards to our strategic leadership board, or sideboards them to our different directorates, so it's a little bit of that second line of defence in terms of that check and challenge at an officer level and it is also part of the route up to governance and audit and in terms of what then do we do we share and one highlight in terms of that compliance dashboard up to to this committee, so that's an internal change which has literally just happened within the last month, so we will keep that under review as to how effectively that's working we can revise and refine that going forward.

the second change I think we did reference at the last meeting, which is that we've actually pulled together the functions of internal governance, risk and compliance within one space, which is actually within my.

my service area, so that we were trying to have much more of a holistic handle on how all those elements linked together and how.

aspects of one can heighten the other, so where we've got compliance issues in a way that sort of them can trigger a risk that needs that further oversight, so so there's work underway there and then probably there's the most significant change. I think organisation needs at 2.00.5, which is the introduction of an integrated finance HR, and payroll system. See I anywhere which will be implemented next month and will, for the first time, actually give the sort of budgetary information and management information at a desktop level to managers and enable the sort of organisational reports to be produced. That well should be should be a game changer. I think, certainly in terms of efficiency, but certainly in terms of that transparency of information and that one truth, so we haven't got different systems, saying slightly different things, we've got one, which will say one thing, so that that will be a big, big ganging game-changer for us, so they're the internal controls. I did reference the dashboard, which we talked about. So at the last meeting, we sort of brought some headlines in terms of the sorts of information that could be contained within the dashboard and to feedback from the committee.

this is very much work in progress, or so it is appended Appendix 1 to the report is our first shot at providing that sort of information to members we're really keen to get feedback at this meeting in terms of is that the sort of presentation that you would hope for we recognise that there are still gaps in some of that as we build up that data collection that we might still need to do behind the scenes to actually make this dashboard become more and more meaningful.

but I am really keen to see if that is, if that is what the committee were expecting, and we've we've drawn out in the report, some of the some little bits of key indicators that his officers and we've highlighted in that section 9 from the different areas but but indeed Members may have other bits of,

at other questions of or queries in terms of that as well, so I shall pause at that point, should say the third element of this report is the financial update happy I don't know whether members wish to look at, discuss the complaints dashboard and then look at finance separately but and Gary is here am able to speak to that part of the report, thank you Chair,

Debbie Simpson - 0:33:16

thank you for that update, and yes, you will take the finances, we will look at the dashboard first and then come back, if that's okay and just before, to take questions on it, I just want to thank you for the hard work that's gone into this dashboard and there are lots of thoughts and efforts being put into getting it where it is now.

and personally, I think it's a really good piece of work and very valuable for this committee, but can I open it up to questions and commencement?

thank you Church, just a general comment, I think that that hot

Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council) - 0:33:44

approach has been very useful and it's been helpful to compare changes in performance, so I'll just note that it's being really really useful.

Debbie Simpson - 0:33:55

thank you, yes, Councillor.

thank you Chair.

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:33:58

it's gonna be useful to have some benchmarking on the dashboard, just to see how we compare to to others and then just a quick way on the complaints, is it possible to understand how many individuals that relates to, or is there a small number of people making a lot of complaints or is that?

just how many people have complained, and I suppose some people round the table familiar with one of my constituents who, I suspect, may be responsible for quite a number of those.

so it would be useful to to just put that bit of context in, if possible,

Debbie Simpson - 0:34:42

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:46

did you want to come back on that as justice just to say wow, in terms of the complaints information I'll have to it's the question at the moment is to system the team are using to whether it can provide that level of detail. I think we're starting to have those conversations back with our casework and correspondence team about refining their system to actually start to draw some of this out, so it may not we may not be able to do that by the next meeting, but it is certainly something I can take away to look at if if we can actually build that into the system I totally understand you can have it can skew the figures quite a lot with that, so if we have vexatious complaints thanks

Debbie Simpson - 0:35:27

thank you for that, can I just go back when you said about the Committee, this, the new Committee, that it is performing, and you said that one of the things you would do with the sort of filter out what comes up to this committee, how can we be sure that if filtering out the right things to come up to this committee,

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:49

that is a very fetch orange, I put myself up for that, didn't I?

I think what a

I think that the pub, the purpose we'd be looking at is looking at things at a more granular level, so we'd be DIY, we'll be digging down into the detail and seeing where there is, if there is.

as its at first filter, in a sense.

we've if we're looking at a complaints dashboard and there's something that raises concern at our level, is it something that can be addressed quite quickly, because what we don't want is to is to delay delay anything for the cycle of the meetings where there are things we're actually action can be taken all we need to look at a policy approach, something we need to be needs to be taken, the action pretty quickly, so it's trying to take that immediate view on that doesn't mean to say, then I mean

would I'd anticipate something like that is we then report back to the Committee? He'd still see the trend in the information, the figures, but there may be an explanation in the report as to what we'd actually

Debbie Simpson - 0:36:47

done as a as a consequence. I guess we are still. We still ensure, as this this committee still has. The there was key. Those key indicators and of key areas of complaints and risk will always be here. It says, trying to do that Scrutiny on its way through to say, isn't something that we can, what's going wrong, what we need to check and then be

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:06

able to belted Pol Pot action about

step yeah, thank you, that's explains it any other questions on the

Debbie Simpson - 0:37:11

dashboard.

no, thank you shall we move on to the final son, Gary thank you.

Gary Dowson - 0:37:19

thank you Chair. The revenue and capital position at the end of Quarter 1 is very much in line with what we would expect it to be focus now is on the outturn to the end of the year and next year's budgeting process. You will. You will know that the there are a number of timing issues in terms of income and expenditure, and that is largely down to profiling of the budget. The budgets are profiled flat across each month where it obviously income and expenditure isn't necessarily linear. In that respect. What what I would say is that the new finance system will very much help us in being able to profile and update budgets in your in line with what we're actually saying. Instead of a flat 12 month profile

Debbie Simpson - 0:38:07

thank you any questions on that.

8 Risk Management

Councillor Flynn, thank you for the update K, so can we move on to the next agenda item, then please agenda item 8 and Caroline again, thank

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:38:27

you, thank you Chair, yes, this is the the the risk item and is in two parts the first is an update in terms of the Risk Management Strategy and the work that's happened on that over the summer and the proposed next steps.

we've looked at. The second part of courses is the Corporate Risk Register, which depended just in terms of the strategy? Initially, we we've looked at our existing strategy, we haven't got a risk, we don't have a risk manager as such in post at the CA at the moment, that is something that we're looking to move towards, but in terms of is the strategy fit for purpose. I think our general view was it largely is. It needs revising slightly to reflect the organisational changes, but it's

our priority at the moment, I think, is ensuring that that existing strategy is effectively implemented, embedded and implemented in the organisation, and that is the preferred course of action, rather than looking spending time on putting a new strategy in which might be an improvement at some point in the future, that the intention here is to hardwire the existing strategy into the new organisational structure, and if that's that's doing are 80 20. I think that is that provides us with a really strong baseline to build the build from so so that is our approach to do that with I've highlighted here that we're it is that hardwiring behind the scenes. I think, as we move to new outcome, focus directorates and indeed a number of new directors as well. Are we actually capturing risk effectively at those levels and escalate up through the organisation, and there is more work to do with that.

we are speaking to other combined authorities who have done things in a slightly different way and have maybe got that got.

got that holistic model, I think in terms of risk, so in terms of particularly things like project programmes and projects where risk is being managed within the project, how are we ensuring that is, then we have some greater transparency of that may, be it at a higher level in terms of where we might have some competing risks at the same time, how is that feeding through? So that's where we're going to concentrate our capacity in our effort over the next few months, together with a look at the organization's current risk appetite statement and risk evaluation guidance, do they reflect the current context, the national context and the pressures out there? So so that's OK. That's our approach

my intention is to update this committee at its next meeting and continue to do so in terms of what's changed and what's happened in between those.

on on that approach at the second part of the report does set out the Corporate Risk Register nothing because I've said there are two 11 we took the decision to actually compile a new strategic risk register to say OK, at this point in time, let's workshop it with senior leadership team with senior managers.

and let's look sort of fresh them as to what the strategic risks are, and that's been that's there at appendix 1 m for members, and for certainly for questions and scrutiny on that I've also attached their Appendices 2 and 3 are the actual evaluation guidance and the risk matrix to provide the explanation as to will how did we how do we reach those that assessment as to the level of risk on each of those ratings?

we have three risks there, well, sorry, two risks and one issue categorised as very high, which is a cybersecurity funding uncertainty which is the national position and the possibility of market failure, and review reduced provision of bus services.

the mitigations are there in the risk register, as well as one would expect the risk ratings are those based on the the the risk, with the current mitigations in place and to the right of that we have further mitigations that are proposed and what I'd like to do. The aim is in terms of future iterations. Of this is that we move to develop an action plan approach around those further mitigations so that we actually have clear

owners' target dates,

for each of those, so that this committee in particular, and senior leadership can monitor, are we hitting those deadlines, are those further mitigations becoming existing mitigations and do some regulating across those so that members can easily see that, and we can see it as a senior team?

so that is a that's the intention for the next iteration, together with moving.

towards sharing the high and very high risks from the directorates with this committee, as well as treat the strategic risks so that you can see those in context and see what is being managed within the organisation such as I shall pause there we do have, as you ref referenced at the start the detail in terms of the mitigations for the cybersecurity risks are contained in the exempt appendix,

we would need to go into closed session, we don't have any press or public here, but we would we would close the

the the streaming, if anybody wanted to ask any questions on that part of it,

Debbie Simpson - 0:43:56

thank you, thank you, so can I just check with members, is anyone wanting to pose a question on Appendix 4, so can we take that the ends, then the subject should be close to the live streaming now if people have comments on that public repair appendix we can do that now and then go into private session.

councils go ahead.

question afterwards, yeah yeah cow, is that's OK, so will we will wait until after?

just a general question.

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:44:26

it's a difficult one, but that does putting it on the register like this, which is a public document, increase the risk of a cyber attack.

given the fact that you can see that the the, but we're open to it.

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:44:51

I think I think the reality is that any large public body and I think it's fairly common knowledge that that Cyprus cybersecurity risks, is one of the biggest risks that any organisation carries, so I think it's I don't think it increases our risk.

to just to highlight that,

I think if our mitigations were published, then it would be clear why it might provide some intelligence t to those out there as to how to how to target us, so that's so we felt it's it's it's fair enough to have it, there is a general threat because you would expect at 1.00 would expect any large body to have that to be honest and recognise that is just an ongoing.

threat, but, yes, that's that's why that's where we've tried to hit the balance.

Debbie Simpson - 0:45:40

thank you, and he has a general questions before we take the close questions.

no, so can we all just a message you do that, thank you.

8 Risk Management

9 Corporate Governance Update

Debbie Simpson - 0:46:11

thank you so moving onto agenda item 9, which is the corporate governance update, and I think Caroline's at you again, thank you.

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:46:21

yes, thanks Chair we brought at the last meeting of this committee in July, members saw a draft of the code of corporate governance and we said we would look to see if it needed further revisions and bring it back to this committee and which we've done this time. It is there as Appendix 1 and Members will see only minor changes have been made. At this point, I think I think a lot of the revisions had been actually achieved at the time it came to the last committee, so these are shown as tracked changes for ease of reference but relate primarily to the governance changes brought about by the integration of the LEP Board into the Combined Authority.

have, however, taken the opportunity to bring forward to the Committee the draft annual governance statement, which would usually come as part of the the accounts and but of course that they've been delayed as with, as we've had said that the annual governance statement itself,

it is, we are a little and we are halfway through this year to be bringing it, but I think it's still important to share that and of course it is a legal requirement for us to produce it. So this effectively looks back over 22 23 in terms of the framework set by the code and on and effectively gives an assessment as to how well we have met those principles within the code and then it also looks forward to this year to say actually given where we are. What are the things that we want to focus on this year as well, so that the the draft statement is off is attached there as Appendix 2

for members, it highlights a number of key changes which have taken place over the last financial year, reference there at paragraph 2.7, which include the exit of regional policing procurement arrangements, the integration of the LEP and changes arising from the internal organisational restructure

that paragraph also confirms that the head of internal audit has reached the opinion that overall our framework, control and governance is operating adequately, so the detail of that is contained in the statement.

and section 7 of that statement then goes on to propose any governance improvement plan for this year and that LA that highlights key areas of focus and activities which we believe will help improve our governance arrangements, and this year we are recommending that we focus on officer decision-making given the the changes in our structures and risk management.

you, you have referenced some of those improvements, we want to make one the earlier agenda item, compliance to continue to develop that dashboard transparency and policing and crime, and that's around our regional procurement activity.

so the proposal is that certainly welcome feedback from this Committee, but that we would look to provide updates and for that work to be monitored by this committee and over the remaining course of this year, recognising that actually some of that might run on into 24 25 in terms of continued improvements.

thank you Chair,

Debbie Simpson - 0:49:34

thank you, so I was quite pleased with that reports that it's very thorough and actually it didn't in your reaction plan. There was anything in there that we didn't expect to see, so that was really reassuring from my point of view. Thank you for that. I think the proposal is that, subject to any changes proposed by this committee, the draft code will be considered by the Combined Authority at its next meeting on the 7th of December as at right. That's that's correct yet yeah yeah, so are there any questions or comments from many Members at this stage

Councillor Scott, just happy to endorse this, thank you.

Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council) - 0:50:09

any other questions, Councillor London.

Debbie Simpson - 0:50:13

OK, so I think we're happy to endorse that is put forward to the next meeting of the Combined Authority, thank you.

10 Bus Reform

Debbie Simpson - 0:50:32

case that brings us on to our last agenda item and that's agenda item 10, and that's the updates on developments of the bus reform and Alex I think you joined us to take us through that please.

Mr Alex Clarke - 0:50:45

yes, thank you Chair, so I I'll just give you a few introductory remarks in terms of the paper, so perhaps one paper is really just to update the Committee on developments of the bus reform programme, as Members may already be aware, the Combined Authority has been following statutory process of conducting an assessment on bus reform since June of 2021 in May of this year the Combined Authority receive a draft of that assessment and approved submitting a finalised assessment to be independently audited in requirements with the legislation.

so Grant Thornton were appointed as the independent auditors and were instructed to prepare a report in accordance with the Transport Act which provided to the Combined Authority in September, the report of the auditors concluded that the information relied on was of sufficient quality at the the analysis of information and the analysis of the information was of sufficient quality and that the combined authority had due regard to the relevant guidance so that report was provided to the Combined Authority in September CA,

meeting, in addition to the report, auditors have provided a number of observations which are also provided to the Combined Authority, alongside responses to those observations, and then the Combined Authority in September agreed to proceed to the next step in terms of the process or one that is a consultation of the assessment and therefore to approve publication.

of all related materials, and so since publication of papers for this meeting, that consultation has now been alive are and will remain live until the 7th of January.

thank you any questions.

Debbie Simpson - 0:52:40

no.

OK and we will seek to this committee get to see the results of the consultation or not, such as.

Mr Alex Clarke - 0:52:53

yeah, we can break, we can bring results back yeah that we are interested members.

Debbie Simpson - 0:52:57

Mr Alex Clarke - 0:53:02

Will that be in advance of the decision making by the authority?

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:53:06

so the consultation will conclude on the 7th of January that will then

Mr Alex Clarke - 0:53:10

be all responses will be independently reviewed and will form part of materials for a decision which will be a Mayoral, Combined, or sit comma or a mayor or decision on whether to proceed or how to proceed next so.

that will be ahead of March.

joint 24.

I've answered your question, Councillor Lamb, sorry.

sorry, I'm I'm not sure if you did, we said we will it come back here

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:53:42

before the decision is made.

Alan Reiss - 0:53:52

I don't I say I don't think it will no, I think I come at it, all of the information that's relevant with it will be presented at the Combined Authority that's due to meet in the second week of March.

and then there wouldn't be an intention to bring back the consultation results here before that.

did you feel that was necessary, Councillor Lamb?

Debbie Simpson - 0:54:09

I'm just wondering what the point of it coming back here would be if the decisions taken.

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:54:15

any abuse from the Committee.

Debbie Simpson - 0:54:25

no said we saying we don't need to see that, then there's no.

Debbie Simpson - 0:54:36

Councillor Scott check the consultation, the update of the figures,

Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council) - 0:54:40

all what's being fed into it would be nice to see what's come through, however, I don't think there's any immediate need to see it before is presented.

OK, so it's just the timing of it so that we get the overview at this

Debbie Simpson - 0:54:53

committee of the outcome.

that right is it possible, so it's OK.

yeah, OK, thank you.

any other questions.

no.

thank you for that, and that was our last agenda item, so thank you for attending.

Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)

Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)

Cllr Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council)

Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Director, Finance & Commercial Services

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Gary Dowson, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)

Mr Alex Clarke

Head of Bus Reform

West Yorkshire Combined Authority

Farhan Khaliq

Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council

Mark Outterside

Governance and Audit Committee - Monday 16 October 2023, 11:00am - Feedback Tab - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance and Audit CommitteeMonday, 16th October 2023 at 11:00am

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Twitter

Forums

Speakers

Feedback

Votes

1 Apologies for Absence

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

Debbie Simpson - 0:00:00

3 Exclusion of the Press and Public

4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 24 July 2023

5 Internal Audit Progress Report

Farhan Khaliq - 0:01:30

Debbie Simpson - 0:04:57

Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:05:14

Debbie Simpson - 0:07:39

Alan Reiss - 0:07:51

Farhan Khaliq - 0:08:52

Debbie Simpson - 0:09:36

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:09:54

Debbie Simpson - 0:10:16

Farhan Khaliq - 0:10:20

Debbie Simpson - 0:11:54

Farhan Khaliq - 0:12:34

Debbie Simpson - 0:13:20

Farhan Khaliq - 0:13:33

Debbie Simpson - 0:13:37

Farhan Khaliq - 0:13:44

Debbie Simpson - 0:13:49

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:13:52

Debbie Simpson - 0:14:12

Farhan Khaliq - 0:14:28

Debbie Simpson - 0:15:38

Farhan Khaliq - 0:15:51

Debbie Simpson - 0:16:03

Farhan Khaliq - 0:16:13

Debbie Simpson - 0:16:17

6 External Audit Progress Report

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:16:45

Debbie Simpson - 0:21:00

Mark Outterside - 0:21:07

Debbie Simpson - 0:21:11

Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:21:15

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:23:22

Debbie Simpson - 0:25:45

Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council) - 0:25:54

Debbie Simpson - 0:26:15

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:26:23

Debbie Simpson - 0:27:16

Mark Outterside - 0:27:20

Debbie Simpson - 0:27:47

7 Compliance and Monitoring

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:28:12

Debbie Simpson - 0:33:16

Cathy Scott (Kirklees Council) - 0:33:44

Debbie Simpson - 0:33:55

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:33:58

Debbie Simpson - 0:34:42

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:46

Debbie Simpson - 0:35:27

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:49

Debbie Simpson - 0:36:47

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:06

Debbie Simpson - 0:37:11

Gary Dowson - 0:37:19

Debbie Simpson - 0:38:07

8 Risk Management

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:38:27

Debbie Simpson - 0:43:56

Cllr Alan Lamb - 0:44:26

Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:44:51

Debbie Simpson - 0:45:40

8 Risk Management

9 Corporate Governance Update

Governance and Audit Committee
Monday, 16th October 2023 at 11:00am