Governance and Audit Committee - Monday 24 July 2023, 11:00am - Start video at 0:23:49 - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance and Audit Committee
Monday, 24th July 2023 at 11:00am 

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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  2. Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  4. Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  6. Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe (Bradford Council)
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  8. Mark Dalton
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  10. Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  7. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  8. Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council)
  9. Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe (Bradford Council)
  10. Mark Dalton
  11. Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council)
  12. Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe (Bradford Council)
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Mark Dalton
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  6. Cllr Sam Firth (Leeds City Council)
  7. Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  11. Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council)
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  13. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council)
  8. Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  5. Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe (Bradford Council)
  6. Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  8. Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  14. Caroline Allen, Deputy Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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Debbie Simpson - 0:00:00
agenda item 1 apologies for absence, we've had apologies from Councillor Lambert, we've should have Councillor Firth and representing,
and I don't think we've had any other apologies, no, thank you.

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

agenda item 2 is declarations of interests anybody got anything to declare.
no, thank you.
and I don't think there is anything on the agenda today that requires exclusion of
us up.

3 Exclusion of the Press and Public

4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 22 March 2023

K thank you. OK, so agenda item 4 minutes of the last meeting,
so has anybody got any comments or queries on the minutes of the last meeting, and that was the meeting held on the 22 of March
can we take those accepted, then please, thank you.
okay agenda item 5 governance arrangements.

5 Governance Arrangements

This report covers three broad areas. We've got arrangements for this committee
which were approved at the annual meeting on the 22 of June. A summary of grant applications considered during the financial year and also then ask on, is to consider the proposed work programme for the year. So if there are any specific areas that this committee wishes to be included on the work programme, this is the opportunity to to make those wishes known. So could I ask Caroline pleased to introduce the
Debbie Simpson - 0:01:36
paper and takes do anything
an important thank you
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:39
yes, thank you Chair.
I think if you've highlighted fairly succinctly for me there in terms of the scope and reach of this report, as you say, does set out the governance arrangements, including the membership quorum and the terms of reference for the committee, which are appended to this at appendices 1 and 2,
in terms of information, here for
your perusal, we've got the grant application information, which we do share with you on an annual basis, and this is with the to
successful applications set out there in the table at 2.00.10 we in this is shared for transparency purposes in line with our
bespoke protocol where applications are received from serving members on our committees, we don't want to exclude them from membership on our committees,
because we don't want to get try and get the best from from both in that sense, but we do go through a separate process which does involve a sign-off by the director and myself as monitoring officer before the application is signed off by the chief executive, so there was two applications this year and they are there for information but with the confirmation that they
appropriately went through that process. I think that the matter, probably for the discussion of this committee is as you them referenced, is the draft work programme at Appendix 3, so I'm very happy to take any questions on that or to
collate any additional items that Members might want to see on that work programme
thank you Chair,
Debbie Simpson - 0:03:29
thank you, has anybody got any queries on that or suggestions for additions to the work programme?
no,
can I just ask one thing, then
it does mention it's mentioned in the paper about the joint independent audit that we should see every year, this committee should see every year, and I couldn't find that in the work plan in forward plan is that in or can it be included?
yes, absolutely Chair, thank you.
the only other query I had.
again, and it again, intended reference
mentions the value for money opinion, which again we receive as part of the
annual.
report from Mazars, but I'm just wondering if that's ought to be itemised as one in the plan or not, just so we don't lose sight of it because it is quite an important area to consider
yes, we'd like that in as well.
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:04:31
Debbie Simpson - 0:04:35
yes, Councillor Heathcliff.
so because there's an audit going on about the bus
Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe - 0:04:40
opportunity going forward about what how they're going to regulate it in the future, and I just wondered what role this committee has in looking at the risk and finances about
Debbie Simpson - 0:04:51
decision K who would like to pick up. that points,
yeah,
Mark Dalton - 0:04:58
so the the audit that's happening at the moment is an external audit, so there's a firm that has been brought in and there's a very strict legislative set-up for how that audit is performed,
I would think that the outcome from that audits should certainly come back to this committee in terms of it being,
in the are responsible for managing that process, to see
exactly what they can bring back to this committee to share, because I'm sure they can do a report at the end of the the audit phase.
Debbie Simpson - 0:05:34
thank you may not be useful with that answer, yeah.
that's lovely yeah, smashing, thank you very much.
OK, so there are no further queries, can we note this item has been considered, thank you.
Tipnis of the internal audit and I think is one is that Angela to take us through police.

6 Review of Internal Control and Effectiveness of Internal Audit

Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:06:05
it is thank you, and this is the paper that comes every year as part of the annual cycle. and
as one of the report sets out this requirement for the relevant body to undertake a review of internal control and effectiveness of internal audit.
the combined authority uses the government's Nordic committee as that appropriate body to.
here the findings of that review,
so the report then sets out
further information on the internal controls around the corporate governance code and framework which we have discussed here and is subject to an item later on the agenda, it has been revised, but it is going to get more of a fundamental review.
and that will be coming back here to this committee to be involved in in the autumn,
the annual governance statement, so the reviews, the system of internal control you would in normal years have seen that of the annual accounts at this point of the year,
with the delays in in production of the accounts you haven't yet seen that, but there is a draft,
which is a positive conclusion in terms of governance arrangements,
so the the officer side of that is in progress, and internal audit report, which is follows on the agenda, gives a positive review of the
the Combined Authority's control, governance and risk management framework, so you will see that in a moment with with Bron in order, however, to accept that the work of the internal auditor is is worthy of being listened to and and taken on board, we need to be comfortable that actually that works being conducted in the appropriate manner. and the way we've done this historically is that we've done it a bit of a desktop review
of the information available, which is a bit of relying on the external review which is done every five years, which is coming up shortly
and a bit of an internal review against the public sector.
into auditing standards and there is. a level of compliance with that. I think the committee has
reflected positively on the audit work that's come to me during the year and I think it's been reassured by the
by the the rigour with which Internal Audit is approached, we've seen number of the documents supporting waned and audit works, I think overall the conclusion therefore is
is that we can we can rely, we can accept as positive the
the internal control review and the effectiveness of internal audit, and always with that, little caveat that this isn't about the internal audit team or, indeed, officers looking at the internal control environment resting on the laurels and saying job done, it's all OK, it is always a bit of a continual improvement,
and always striving to to to do a bit more, improve a bit more so. a positive opinion at this stage does not
did not mean work stops and you don't keep trying to improve it
and I will stop there, thank you,
Debbie Simpson - 0:09:02
thank you knew it was a very positive report, so yes, I was pleased with that and yeah well well done to Bron, I think in challenging circumstances.
so any members got any questions or comments on the paper.
could I ask Angela just about and the external review that's gonna be undertaken next year, can you just elaborate a little bit more on the process of that?
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:09:27
we will be planning that this year it's something Brooklynite talked about, so she will we'd brought in.
an external consultant who did the review five years ago, just before current head of internal audit, joined us and we're looking haven't yet determined that route it will, I it will be somebody external, it could be through a peer review from a similar organisation it could be by going out through procurement at the moment and Ronnie's is testing testing the waters about what options are available
and will be agreeing.
with the chief operating officer, what the best route is to get that that review, but I'm sure to be able to provide an update
I'll attend the next meeting as we are planning it now in readiness, but it isn't to take place for another until next year,
Debbie Simpson - 0:10:14
and how will the scope of such audit be agreed because this is going to be a need for a bit of impartiality isn't there a Nat?
Mark Dalton - 0:10:25
so basically, the scope is set because of the for review against the public sector internal audit standards, so there's no, there's no bit of it, they don't. turnover in some fashion, but in terms of the independence of it, that's the bit we're looking at quite a number of our colleagues in other NCAs do pay reviews,
but if it's about making sure there, you know who you select the appear reviews, not someone you have a close network relationship with which we do with quite a number of the Northern NCAs, so we're just we're putting feelers out to see who else is out there. Who might be interested in doing the peer review for us on the basis that we would then reciprocated some point but yeah, so I do it is all in hand, but
we're very mindful in order to meet the public sector in town, all the sand is that has to be a very independent review. So, yeah, I was absolutely part of the thinking
Debbie Simpson - 0:11:15
OK, thank you, so we'll see that next meeting so
Mark Dalton - 0:11:21
yeah, yes, I'll I'll include that in my updates for the next committee
Debbie Simpson - 0:11:23
massively, thank you, OK, any more questions.
notes the can, I ask members, if this put the outcome of the review?
yes, thank you.

7 Internal Audit Annual Report and Opinion

I move on to agenda item 7, and that's for the committee to consider the internal audit and your reports and opinion
once again Brom, you know well done
on the outcome of this.
or as I think the work shows, that there's been a real commitment to having a rounded system in place, that's what jumped out at me, so I think it's come a long way.
so would you like to take me through key points of that? Thank you. Thank
Mark Dalton - 0:12:07
you Chair, so, on a very positive note that there's no change to the opinion this year, it will, and I know everyone hates the word adequate, but adequate is basically from an auditor's perspective, a good result, because an audit opinions time-limited, it's, it's a point at which you you, you said again, I sum up all the work that you've done and it can ever be absolute assurance. So I think for us, given the huge change in the huge growth in the MC,
to have an adequate opinion again is a good and positive outcome.
You've alluded to the fact that has been quite a challenging year. We've had enormous resource difficulties, but we've worked hard with our senior leadership team to make sure that we've reprioritised throughout the years to focus on on the riskiest areas and to make sure that we, we carry forward those reviews that
it was sensible to carry forward and made sure we finished those that we thought we needed to to include in the opinion.
I also wanted to point out to the committee that this year, compared to last year, we have more limited and minimal assurance reports. That's a good thing. You may not think it is, but actually it suggests that we are getting the risk focus right, so we are looking at the things that are not absolutely ticking away. Nicely, we're getting into the areas that are a bit more difficult,
and it's nothing that, in my experience, my long experience unfortunate of working in Audit for many years, I would expect to see an opinion covering this kind of range of audit outcomes. So I'm feeling more confident that we are growing the team in its experience in its focus, and we are working really well with the senior leaders in the organisation to focus on risk. So those are the positives
what we also have to balance this against, though, is how sustainable is this, given the growth of the organisation and the breadth of responsibilities that it has, so we are doing a piece of work at the moment to look at the audit universe, those that come from an older background, you'll know that that is quite a significant piece of work to do to really understand the full range of things you should be assuring and to make sure then you have plans to be able to to cover that that is a work in progress. as I speak, and again we will report back to the committee on the outcomes of that, so looking forward, I think we will will still have that.
what seems like any tonal issue around trying to find a good auditors out there?
but again, on a positive note, we have just recruited one individual and we're about to offer to another.
so if I look slightly happier than I normally do these meetings, it's entirely for that reason, so so for the rest of it it's a case of I'll assume you, you've read the papers and any questions I'm very happy to pick those up specifically
Debbie Simpson - 0:15:06
thanks, Brian has anybody got any questions because?
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:15:09
thank you,
Uncle echo the Chair's thanks in terms of good effort, given the recruitment difficulties and other difficulties we've had and given.
scooting present company, given the difficulty nationally in terms of external audit in relation to local government work and how difficult was being to to get that done, Michael Gove mentioned that the
a local government conference recently, I just want you to ask a question about the management and timetabling of I think it is about seven, seven or eight items which have been
bought carried over to
the next next year, as it were, I deferred to next year or carried over in terms of this is this really shorthand for sometimes, maybe never or odd, do they actually have a place in the internal audit plan for the coming year?
Mark Dalton - 0:16:05
thank you, Councillor Scully, and that is a good question, because I would say that sometimes got his what happens at the end of the year things drop off. because you've not had the capacity to do them, but we have made the distinction in the paper of those that have carried forward to be completed and actually a number of those and 14 didn't make the cut for the publication of the papers, but a couple of those are already done. The ones we are dropping are the ones that actually were. The was only one that we removed from the plan, and we did that deliberately because we couldn't on a risk basis justify doing that, he so effectively advisory work
at, so the ABAs are definitely on the cards for this year and the two that were deferred were deferred because the organisation wasn't ready for us to do that piece of work. At the time we were planning to do it and that was just a reflection of the the progress against
either though, the review of the code of corporate governance which we've had or are a few amendments to which I think is included in this paper later, and but there is gonna be a full review of that and actually makes sense for us to do that work at that point. and similarly with climate change, what we did was some high level
meetings with the teams around climate change, but what we are finding is it stretched across so many areas of delivery in the business that we are having to really think about how we effectively audit that and whether we break it down into more individual bits of delivery chunks against the plans and so those are the only reasons though those were deferred and the other sour either just done or just about to be done.
Debbie Simpson - 0:17:44
Councillor Scully Gemma conduct
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:17:49
item 29 climate change external plant, I just chaired my first climate change committee, and indeed you're right, perhaps the work has been a little wide-ranging really, and I would hope to to focus much more clearly on some key areas that are are very much the business of the
Combined Authority and we know that other partners are working in other areas, so perhaps we could have a discussion outside this committee. Thank you.
thank you, Councillor Hinchcliffe
Debbie Simpson - 0:18:18
can just go back to our previous part, really, I'll just wander off,
Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council) - 0:18:21
see all the streams of what you've been looking at, is there enough unknown transport, given it's such a big piece of our work?
Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe - 0:18:30
which seems to concentrate on some quite some smaller issues, but we are at, we are making sure we're looking at the big pieces as well.
Mark Dalton - 0:18:39
are not enough, and I would completely concur with that and that's partly driving this review of the universe, because some of the big ticket transport programmes coming up now, while ever there is quite a lot of the external insurance around those the still about, are we putting the governance in the controls effectively in place internally? So I do think there's a lot more work to do around that and that is partly why we really do want to look at whether we've got sufficient resource, we, I think there's a recognition across all of the NCA's, particularly in the northern region, around how much the transport agenda is growing and what that means for us, we have started a transport audit network to look at what all of us are doing, so to see if we can help out and whether a specific skills, if we can do a bit of a trade of one thing, so I think it's high up everybody's agenda at the moment and it's definitely you are absolutely right needs needs more focus.
Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council) - 0:19:40
I think I think it might be helpful actually exert it, I'm not talking about when Morgan is suave, it might be able to be taken out as well but bit the wrong stage of the process I think the whole thing could do with looking up from a streamlining point of view and it may be
Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe - 0:19:52
your governance and audit kind of hat on you being better able to give them the confidence of when they should be looking at what we should be looking at run looking at stuff that might not be quite as useful.
Debbie Simpson - 0:20:08
thank you,
I've got a couple of queries, go on the performance indicators we've got grant claims at 58% against a target of 90, so I just wondered what's happening in that respect, to try and bring that performance up?
and then my second question was around the whistleblowing one which fraud and whistleblowing reports within 10 working days, and that's quite low McQueary on that one, as is if that is because of the complex nature of whistleblowing, is that the right target we've got.
Mark Dalton - 0:20:46
good observations, and they are by far and away our poorest performance indicators, the grant claims.
it's an interesting one, because we set ourselves quite a high high target around that at a point at which we had quite unknown pipeline of grants.
but they have grown considerably and we get quite a lot coming slightly out of leftfield, so we doing some work internally to try and and look at across not just the order team obviously impacts the finance function. It impacts some of the kind of the governance things around, getting things signed off by the chief exec, all of those kind of things. We need a better pipeline, so
it's a bit of a reflection of we get more in than we can cope with that one and they all come at the same time,
and resources been such an issue, it's been a case of do the most important ones first and just work your way through. So we we have absolutely compromised on delivery of all of them. In terms of the timescales we set, we will need to re-look at that, because the the nature of the funding at the moment is not changing. The not getting single settlements were not getting in. There are lots of individual funding streams still coming through, so we will have to think about how we manage that
and then it's a similar picture with the fraud
and though the whistleblowing we've just had many more issues raised with us, which we think again is a positive, because people are reporting things to us, they feel confident that we will action them,
but we have, I think, 0.4 of an F T doing counter-fraud work at the moment, so that's something else that we're looking at as part of that resource for the to the team going forward.
Debbie Simpson - 0:22:31
Joanna Wardman - 0:22:36
thank you to thanks on the I helped queries really in relation to, should the grants work and the fraud works, it was internal and exit traditionally doesn't in most organisations, it is that the best use of your very limited and precious resources.
Mark Dalton - 0:22:56
so I think it should, but I think it needs to be resourced properly and I think actually we do quite a lot of particularly around some of our funding streams at education, but it is an example where we do a combination of audit and sometimes investigative work and so does it does make sense for to sit there, but I would argue that we don't have sufficient resource at the moment.
Debbie Simpson - 0:23:21
OK, so this review that you're undertaking is particularly important, and I think that could be this committee's opportunity to challenge him to make sure some of these concerns are picked up and can be addressed through that work.
so yeah, we look forward to seeing that
k any other queries on that paper.
let's hope we can note that the Committee has considered that report, please.

8 Internal Audit Progress Report

agenda item 8 not follows on from the last paper and that's a report on the progress of internal audit and that's back to an again, I think, please.
Mark Dalton - 0:23:56
the tide of my boys and nobody and I might going so, am so progress. An update, as you'd expect, is not a huge amount in here, yet we are completing or have been completing at last year's work, and we are doing quite a lot of our planning work at the moment, as I've already alluded to. Having said that, we are making good progress and what we have done in this report is made sure the the committee have had the summaries of work that completed between the last Committee and this one. So even though there are, in my opinion for last year and arguably not a progress update for this year, I still wanted the committee to have sight of of the work that we'd actually done.
and when you look through that, you do sort of get that balance of year, there are more limited and minimal assurance pieces, but they all looking at the right things and they're looking at things that are important to us.
we do have quite a lot of work ongoing at the moment in the adult education budget, a funding stream, and that's where two new recruits are moving into, so that's that's a hugely positive
thing to report back and we have closed off, as I said earlier, an additional one of the
fraud investigations that was highlighted in this report to that's looking a little bit more manageable at the moment as well,
so it's not, it's not, it's not perhaps as much progress as we would have liked at this point but I think as we bring more resources in we're hoping to to get that position onto a bit of a firmer foundation.
OK, thank you any questions.
Debbie Simpson - 0:25:34
no, could I raise a couple, please?
and
it said some, the report was no overdue actions, but I think it could just be useful if we could just put the points in time into the report when they were last reviewed, because if there's a delay in do you know if they were reviewed three or four weeks ago the position now may be different and it may well become overdue and that interim period so it not be useful yet we can definitely do that. Thank you and then the only other thing I picked up was assumed to be a bit of a golden thread through from deceased papers around issues with contract management.
so I was just wondering if that matter is being looked at holistically and how these cross cutting issues are being picked up and managed.
Mark Dalton - 0:26:22
I think that is that is correct and one of the things that we've been working with our commercial team on is the development of the contract management standards for the organisation, so they've been doing a lot of work at building additional monitoring of contracts, and they've now got a very good system in place for looking at the very risky very,
high value contracts, and we want to see that promulgated down into the the rest of the contracts, so we're working with the commercial team to try and help them do that in a way that that would enable us to take more assurance from the controls being in place. But it's a
Bronwyn Baker - 0:26:59
good point and it is something that we stand and fall on your contract management, because at the end of the day, that's how you get your delivery, so we, we are planning to do approach to contract management review of our AB programme and we're planning to do a contract management review right at the end of the year on the Central and Corporate approach to contract management as well as we will continue to dip in and out and look at particularly contracts are flagged to us is one thing of concern
OK, thank you
Debbie Simpson - 0:27:32
any other questions,
Councillor Hinkley, certain
Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council) - 0:27:36
things on the D I sort of presume that's just an internal staff thing is it because of CDI has wider implications about service delivery, so we've not looked at service delivery just looking at internally,
Bronwyn Baker - 0:27:51
so I'm sitting on the E D oversight board and what we've agreed is that oversight board will direct some of the work of internal audit so where there are concerns that are coming out irrespective of of whether it's the internal plans or whether it's looking more widely than that, but I think it's an area that we would want that board to be looking at and considering based on the evidence that they're reviewing before we commit to doing specific works and what we've got on the plan at the moment is about the internal compliance, it's about the internal structures etc but that doesn't mean we can't be directed to do some specific service delivery work more widely, and I think it's right that that board does take that that view in terms of directing the work
Councillor Firth.
Debbie Simpson - 0:28:38
thank you for that, and I just want to ask on one particular point you
Cllr Sam Firth (Leeds City Council) - 0:28:41
mentioned about reviewing contract management by the end of the year, or one of the mentioned points about other than the contract for A B is that a facilities management
the challenge is that we are talking about and being reviewed by the end of the year, or is it something
that maybe needs to be reviewed earlier, given the fact that in the report it's mentioned that you potentially haven't be able been able to re-tender the contract because of concerns about the framework being in place to ensure that controls are in place to ensure we
don't fall foul of it?
a huge lift that
Bronwyn Baker - 0:29:13
so yeah, the facilities management, one because of the nature of the assurance level, we're doing that again this year, so no, that's a separate one, that we are doing again and not the end of the year.
and and actually they have taken some action as a result of that review, we did to get that contract through the the re-tendering process, so we put our commercial team on to them too,
Debbie Simpson - 0:29:39
thank you any other questions.

9 External Audit Progress Report

OK, thank you, so we'll move on to agenda item 9, and that's the external Audit progress report Angela anything, you wish to highlight,
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:29:54
yes, thank you, Chair and
two parts
of this report,
one is the conclusion for the 21 22 accounts which, at the last meeting
we were within days of finalising the outstanding queries we hoped
and that would not to be,
and that's a national issue primarily linked to pension and annual pension revaluation, which meant that updated pension figures that we all needed to take into account so.
accountants up and down the country and are changing accounts to reflect the latest pension figures. It has no impact on the results of the year. It's simply the disclosures and the and the developed a balance-sheet impact. That is there goes in and out and is woven through the accounts, but one is a such a magnitude of change that that many of us have had to make those adjustments. So we've done that. We are now very close to finalising the last few outstanding queries with the auditors and Mark outside his hearing and
can confirm that in a moment, I hope
so we're hoping to move to getting the accounts signed off in the next few weeks for 21 22, and there are many others, naturally in similar business positions, so it's nothing special we've done or not done, it's it's simply the combination of
ordered to shortage delays and then compounded by this pension and in an infrastructure advice. It was updated as well during the
audit time
22 23 accounts. We we explained last time that we did not intend
to rush those to get them out by the end of May, which was the statutory deadline,
we'd have no planning done for the audit work, we were still finalising 21 22, and so in common with many other organisations, we chose to focus on
doing a good job on producing a set of accounts and were close to finalising the 22 23 accounts.
Mrs. A been busy as all other auditors have doing NHS audits they're now back now, focusing as we agree with them to get 21 22 done, and then attention will turn to 22 23
and there will be intentions to bring forward a planning document to, I think I said the September meeting but actually early October our next meeting.
so we will bring the draft accounts to the next meeting of this committee in respect of the timing of audit or not we're going here for you to see and at the next meeting for comment and we did have.
an interesting update with the auditors very recently,
we are aware that nationally there is their attempt to try to find a solution to this backlog.
it is a national backlog, there are lots and lots of audits outstanding, there is a change in audit appointments next year for many organisations through the PSA arrangements we have written to MOZES going forward, which means it's not to too an issue for us but we are expecting there to be.
to be advised very soon of
perhaps some
measures to bring the backlog to an end, which can only mean not everything getting on to the same in the same way to the same extent,
and as soon as we know more, we'll let you know I have a horrible feeling this will all come to a head between now and our next meeting and there's anything that contenders need to be aware of
once we've had formal notification, I will let you know, but
it does seem that there's a little bit of enough is enough. nationally with
it, it is unfair to everybody to continue like this,
it's not bad pressure on auditors and for those charged with governance you're left without the assurances that you're expecting, and they're getting older and older and older and we need to focus on knowing things right now and focus on going forward and Mark may wish to say a little bit more on any of those items. Thank you,
Mark Outterside - 0:33:45
parents, Angela yeah, I think Angeles probably summed up where we are. in regard to the 21 22 accounts.
I don't think it's,
it is a technical issue in regard to the pension
pension figures, and we are trying really hard to get that resolved as soon as we possibly can, we've also got a few queries outstanding with the valuers who are waiting for responses for loss
and as soon as we get those we hope to be able to finalise 21 22 in the next few weeks.
but there just seems to be these black swan events to come out of nowhere that seem to.
not only have elected to do this and then again with 22 23,
that is the plan to bring the the Audit Plan to the next. the next committee all being well.
so I've got nothing else to say really on that, not matter.
OK, thank you
Debbie Simpson - 0:34:42
any questions, Councillor skyline.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:34:48
comment rather than a question, I think it actually flags up the importance of the ongoing rolling programme of internal audits, really we're not dependent on dusty, the annual external audit, and you know what was the movement in reserves, whom in the last year but actually tried to keep a kind of very current ongoing grip across the
the range of things that the Combined Authority does, so it's lucky we're not just depending on
the external audit given the national situation yeah I think that's a
Debbie Simpson - 0:35:18
very valid point I think this committee especially needs to see the figures on a regular basis doesn't it get that assurance, yeah
k
any other queries, yes, Councillor Firth,
thank you further to those points, obviously the situation on Mr. We
Cllr Sam Firth (Leeds City Council) - 0:35:36
understand that we would all be like to be in a better position, do we know whether it's going to have any implications on the next auditing of the next year's account in terms of actually making sure that the backlog doesn't continue and do we have any chicken meat on the bone that can provide around that and making sure it doesn't happen as much as possible?
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:58
I think that's what we're waiting to hear what the national solution is, I mean it previously, we have had a very good record of doing accounts in time, with timescales and auditors auditing and, in time, with the required
national timescales. in the last year it's this is the first time we've ever been in, I've been doing this for 20 years the first time we've ever been in this position of such a delayed and audit and and we're not alone in this so it does feel from the radical is gonna be needed that it is just physically not going to be possible for the current quantum of auditors to audit the current quantum of accounts that are outstanding.
and we wait to see what that solution will be,
they will share with you as soon as we as soon as we know.
but it would be good to get to a more regular as positions, and we're back in the normal pattern of bringing new accounts in June July, having them audited by September, and then we move into planning for the next year and you have the comfort then of knowing
can the Internal Audit report relating to audit matters and excellent audit doing their work which also includes the value for money and you get a nicely rounded
set of information and you are missing some of that at the moment
so fingers crossed we will get a solution that works for everybody.
Debbie Simpson - 0:37:19
I'm assuming that if you are planning to bring the plan so October, we're working on the assumption that it's all going to
go what lint it's just a black swan event, isn't it really, that could change the position delay, sings sat right.
yes, I think we have to keep going with the best information we have,
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:36
so we are so focused on 21 and 22 as soon as we have any intelligence about 22 23
and whether it's the audit happens with having a reduced scale with a hams to full extent will will bring it back in timescales. become tight, we'll will look at involving that time that cycle of meetings,
Councillor Hinchcliffe
Debbie Simpson - 0:37:57
and Anna re, cultural
Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council) - 0:38:01
so Black Swan may be a ballet reference
for adult what a black scholar relevant
is,
some can let me know what that is,
Debbie Simpson - 0:38:09
it's an unforeseen risk that manifests as an accurate description bron,
Bronwyn Baker - 0:38:17
I think it's it's a comedy, an event of magnitude that nobody saw coming, so it wasn't on anybody's risk horizons or risk registers, and he just hits, and it's instantly an issue as opposed to a risk when it's those ones there people just did it was not on our radar at all or on the horizon which happens it does does occur.
Mark Outterside - 0:38:40
I think it's worth saying in this instance here, one when there's been trying to reduce pension figures that are less certain, resulted in the significant changes that we've had this time, so you've seen a lot of our authorities are now going from a huge liability position too.
positive position, so that just shows you how significant those changes in that pension debts have been, and in this instance it would be wrong for the firm to give an opinion for 21 22, none that we haven't fully explored the magnitude of that change for the
21 22 effectively, so that was
so it is quite a unique
event that the
help us back this year.
OK, thank you
Debbie Simpson - 0:39:30
any more questions.

10 Compliance and Monitoring

thank you, so if we move on to agenda item 10. that's a standard agenda item to consider any changes to the arrangements for internal control since the last meeting. I think, Caroline you're going to talk through this one, please
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:39:51
yes, thank you Chair, and
just start by saying this is my first time, governance and audit committee, despite having been with the CA
for their seven years,
I know so that the, but the reason why I'm here now why are you going to keep seeing me here is that we've done as part of the organisational evolution work, we have pulled together the issues relating to internal governance into governance more broadly and brought risk and compliance within that agenda so they as from last Monday they now sit in within my service area in my area of scope so, and he presenting these reports, but this is the for this is clearly the transition point at this,
so these papers may change as we go forward.
and James's hair on my right. There's James and his team are still supporting NI in this in the in some of these functions. So if there's any detailed questions, I'm sure James Corden can answer those, but so so that's that's why I'm sitting here round the table. So I think these reports are probably sort of transitional, in terms of where we want to move to and where, as part of the organisational evolution, work sort of say actually, we need to give greater profile greater priority to it, so it links in very
neatly with, I think, the scoping, the work of governance and audit committee so hopefully going forward, we can start to present better information to you,
the sort of information that you you need, but that is dependent on systems, resources and the rest of it. So I don't want to promise the earth and fail within the first three months, but to do anything with that said turning to this paper, this seeks to provide some assurances around our existing internal controls to confirm that there have been no significant changes to those, since the the last time we reported to governance and audit and to confirm that the work of the office of board regulatory and compliance board continues to
carry out those assurances to look across at compliance information and if needed to then raise that and escalate that either to our
on our direct board, no auto to this committee as appropriate, so and there's nothing that's come forward in this report to do that in the report also highlights that the implementation plan for our integrated HR and payroll system, which will be such a game changer
is is still is underway that will make such a difference in terms of the sort of information
and the confidence and information and that that provides an consistency in that so, I think once that goes live and I think we are getting closer and closer to that,
that will help in terms of that management, information and both our roles as senior managers, in terms of the the the advice that we provide, both to committees and our our officer boards. so that's that suppose that's the way we are confirmation, no read or incidents since the last meeting, so I touch wood for that, but that is a that is a very reassuring position again.
but then the second part of the report is based is to sort of focus on the development of a dashboard which I know this committee has next to no indicated this is, this is the sort of information that you you want to come forward, and at paragraph 2.9 there I think we've highlighted some of the areas that we need to bring that information forward on so.
Work on that is underway,
our aim, and it's in your witness in your work plan, so I'm I'm sort of committed to it for the next meeting of this committee in October to bring forward a
I suppose a starter for 10 in terms of that dashboard, so we will look to certainly pick up the information contained at 2.00.9 together with some other areas where we also think this committee might be interested to populate that where we can with the information we currently hold and then to test sense check that back with this committee in terms of is that in a format that is sufficiently transparent and useful to you as a committee, is there anything missing in there that you would like to see coming forward in future iterations of that? So by our October committee I should be able to present to you something which is
got some substance to it, which means that we can start to have those discussions and you can you know you can challenge and question them elements of that, so there's there's a financial update as well as part of this report but as you'll tend to Angela for that
but in terms of the recommendations sort of asking this committee to consider the information in that.
and if there's any other areas
that you aren't contained in 2.9 at the moment that Members are already sighted on, they would like to see to please feed that back in as well, thank you Chair.
Angela did you want to come in,
thank you, I'll just touch very briefly, at the financial update it
Debbie Simpson - 0:44:55
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:44:58
was has been drafted to go to finance resources committee. The meeting date was being rescheduled for a date that works better for members, but basically
the report there will be that the
Even position as at the end of March, his is broadly in line with what was reported in February
with those acknowledgement there was there would be a
some additional income on Foster would
be set aside
and the timing, but coming in some savings on concessions and some surplus interest income from bank interest. and again that, coming back to finance resources, committee to
to consider how that then impact on future years going forward and and the capital position and was was only a little down on on where it was expected to be 227 million figures are going up.
I think this year it is
300 million plus significant capital programme that is now moving into delivery as well as some of the other projects we talked about before, I think it touches back on the
discussions of Wellington Road at focus needs to be that there's a lot of project work, this one big,
mass transit plus reform of big big projects coming through that we need to conquer, we've got the right arrangements in place for, so it does all link act together and provide a bit more information next time following finance resource committee paper.
Debbie Simpson - 0:46:23
thank you, so I'm particularly looking forward to seeing the dashboard, I think not will be a
really
good piece of work and very useful for this committee, it sort of arises out of the workshop that we had a few months ago, so it'd be nice to see that input that the committees had coming coming to fruition on that so Councillor Scully and did you have a query?
thank you, and
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:46:43
I think Caroline and Angel would be disappointed, if I didn't get not made a fuss about us about this, an
excellent start, really good, actually we know in the sort of area in terms of governance we're using some proxy measures to try and understand is this a reasonably functioning Combined Authority and does have some problems or outliers that should trigger some further work? using audit one or the other, some exceptional things that need to be looked at
and, I think beginning to be a kind of percentages where for each of those things and I think from me
and I know this is really difficult, is about the question of compatibility if we're looking at.
performance data and deep look at a flog in terms of the new indicators for that, if we're looking at finance data and so on, one of your first questions will be
how does it compare to last year what are the projections for next year? and of course, this is a baseline data and evidence that will give us a basis for going forward into the future, so we can have longitudinal compatibility, but what I think we need, we do need to think about, and I think you touched on this before in terms of exploring
other combined authorities are different, but there is some degree of compatibility that perhaps we should look into no, are we the same else or are we, and why are
what kind of things are they measuring that we might be interested in now we reduce our CIPFA family if it was finance?
but you know just thinking ahead in terms of the development, so when you come back to us or be interesting, just have some reflections on that. Thank you. Thank you, Chair
yeah, thank you. I think I think that's a good point and we've
Debbie Simpson - 0:48:31
mentioned that before haven't we about having benchmarks. I think interesting thing to me, as well as what comes to this committee as opposed to going to other committees, and I think we discussed it for having a bit of a lead approach
because we need to ensure that this committee has the visibility of the governance. You've just said, you know, it's a governance, working or not, and the triggers you know that might require action to be taken. So but having a comparison that that would be really interesting, I think one useful catch-all his Cliff
so
Cllr Shabir Pandor (Kirklees Council) - 0:49:04
what about Local government Ombudsman
s
of numbers did I come through to
hear her, or presumably we
are subject to that, we
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:49:11
yes, we are, yes, I conclude that, just as
we can incorporate that into this dashboard, yes.
Debbie Simpson - 0:49:26
k any other ideas or anything from any Aviva committee members, things you'd like to see included.
now I mean it will be a work in progress, and I imagine it will be some unusual Volvo time anyway, so I think it's just a question of having a starting point and seeing how it works and then adapting it as Wiggo's.
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:49:53
yeah, absolutely, that's my intention, I think once you start to you, don't know what's missing really until you start to look at it and you can relax actually useful, so that then triggers other information, but I will take away their compatibility
aspects as well, that's that's a really really good point and we do have a a network as monitoring officers across the the CIA's in the same way finance director speak, so it'll be interesting to see what what stage they're at and whether you know to what extent their capturing this information at the moment, but but where they are, I can start to draw out that compatibility as we do we do have those sorts of conversations between sets, that's a really helpful point, thank you.

11 Treasury Management

Debbie Simpson - 0:50:32
thank you OK, no other questions committed note, the Committees considered the paper and we'll move on to agenda item 11, and that's an update on treasury management, and I think there's a specific ask in this paper for members to confirm if they're fine refresher training useful so firstly on that point can I just ask if people would find that useful yeah, yes, so we can make a note that we'd like to arrange that, please and then Angela Johns takes through the paper,
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:51:05
I will thank you, but I think you'd started at the right point in the paper really because what we've been, what we've been trying to do is set up
a pack that you can
get each time that has potential indicators in that provide you the necessary information and reassurance but, for that to work, you need to understand what the potential indicates are telling you, so the training goes hand in hand with information, so take that waiting action to look at whether we do it. the October meeting or whether we have to deal with a week to a separate session
but as colleagues at Leeds to an effect doubt that we met them last week after we published these papers, there are no issues to report from that meeting and things under control we are looking at
if there's opportunities interest rates change whether we should be repaying any bad debt but we're working through options whether that's a sensible thing to do at this point
but also looking at what those indicators should be to be meaningful.
and I think we should do that as a as a job lot. Really here's the proposed information that we're going to hear what you need to know is that as a committee and some of you have done the the training in the past with Leeds but then supplement that with to his information get on a regular basis, he's what should be looking for, he's what it's telling you
and do the two together and establish perhaps a little bit like Caroline's Dashwood attended with iterative. He is the starting point, is what our Treasury experts think you should be seeing each time to be aware of and and develop it from there, so we'll look whether we do that in October or arrange a separate session for you
Debbie Simpson - 0:52:37
thank you, as it would be very useful any questions on this paper.
no, Kay, thank you,

12 Risk Management

so agenda item 12, that's received progress on the plans, reviews, the organization's corporate risk management strategy and an update on corporate risk I think that's the Caroline and Caroline can I just ask you as well to just bring us up to date with women not seen a risk register on this particular meeting.
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:53:07
thank you, I think that's that's that's a fair question.
the report as opposed to the report. the report seeks to do here is to give a snapshot of as to where we are as an organisation and what's been happening behind the scenes at an officer level,
so, as part of our movement towards an outcome focus directorates, there's been a
a huge amount of work done in terms of focusing on risk associated with the delivery of our business plans, so the organisation internally is moved to a new model of monthly internal reporting against for risk against the business plans which go up to us it's called I all being which is that the chief executives and directors,
I think to be honest from my perspective, whilst resource has been put into developing that model and bringing that through
that it's that finite level of resource which has then been sorted to you know being moved across from that from the corporate risk register
and that hasn't been updated formally and in the intervening period
directorate, so directors and their senior management team are monitoring corporate risk, alongside their business planning, risks my understanding, the knowledge that the information I've got is that there's not been any significant change from the last Corporate Risk Register,
however, personally I still feel which this should have been, the should be a risk register in front of members at this meeting.
so I suppose at that you know that's just the reality. The resources as as shifted to to bring forward some development that has effectively taken its eye off the ball in terms of that formal reporting on the corporate risk register, we need to get that back
as a as a priority.
We will definitely definitely we will have a corporate risk register for this committee at its next meeting.
There is there's a lot of work at the re. The report itself talks about
this was no directors, discussed this at their meeting on the 14th of July, so it's very current in terms of what is actively happening, it isn't. it isn't that risk has not been seen as a priority internally and the senior management team are testing that out in terms of the changes to our risk management strategy at their meeting in early August, so there's development in terms of improving our internal processes and strategies for managing risk,
but I still think we should have had the risk register here at this meeting, so my priority is to ensure that we do for the for the next meeting.
and I have to leave it at that, I think,
OK, thank you,
Debbie Simpson - 0:55:51
yeah, Councillor Scullion.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:55:53
I have a very handsome.
elegant
apology for other other other folk actually, but you're absolutely right, it should be with us. and I can see that there's a hiatus in terms of revising the approach and modernising and updating, and that's absolutely right we need to be current and how we we manage risk,
but nonetheless it should be here now I would hope that was communicated to the senior managers in the organisation that it's really not acceptable for the governance and audit committee not to
not to have that, but
having
having said that,
I just want you to link this paper to previous paper on Treasury Management.
I should, because part of presumably the updating work is about understanding our appetite for risk and how that changes according to the landscape around us and the changes Councillor Hinchcliffe has already said, were but embark on a big
period of change in the Combined Authority's world in terms of the big transport changes.
so that question of security liquidity yield.
how we manage things going forward, I think it's important that we're absolutely up to date on that in terms of understanding,
the exposure to risk and the management and the mitigation of risk, when you stop, the Cherokee golfer got locked to that risk.
Debbie Simpson - 0:57:22
thank you if I think he writes and we have discussed before as well, even things like the impact of inflation on some of these big programmes.
so we need to have all of that considered in the round, really
Councillor Hinchcliffe, did you want to come in
Cllr Susan Hinchcliffe - 0:57:38
and just see Froome for risk register, part of your is an agreement about where it should go, and when so what regularity does it go to the Audit Committee when if does it go to the CA at any point when Bradley recent quarterly risk registers to the Executive meeting I have, we thought that through basically,
Angela Taylor, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:58:00
and I think that's part of the debate, I think the risk greatest has regularly come here, it regularly goes to the internal officer meetings,
I think there's a question
whether it goes to the Combined Authority, whether this committee feels it should comment on it and feed that intelligence to the Combined Authority so it might be one you want to considering looking at the risk development arrangements. or
the Combined Authority agenda is very busy
and it's whether it would
a view from this committee might help inform the discussion rather than the full register and the committee the combined authority would be due in inverted commas, what you've already got done here when you see it but definitely take that into account and
I think we've taken it.
in the past, one authority, you regularly knock on a regular basis and what we should be really clear, who sees it when and what their role is we've total, where the committee should see, I think it's only re previously chaired whether the Committee should see the risks relating to what they're delivering
and we don't routinely take it to the other thematic committees so if the climate change risks that the climate change committee
so I think it's all food for thought as we try to re establish the best way forward on it
was it not be good and is there a mechanism, even by the standards
Debbie Simpson - 0:59:17
committee, to cease the risk register next, it's be the best part of six months when setts, since we last saw it is there a mechanism whereby any
risk, at the arises, wood could be bought to this committee outside of the regular meetings would we be sited on that at all,
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:59:37
we we could, we could yet mean unserious, yes, that is possible. if that's what the committee would
want to happen,
Debbie Simpson - 0:59:47
it's wondering what other committee members would think about that
yet Councillor Schelling
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:59:57
chair, I would expect if there was a major change to the risk register or a new.
serious risks in terms of the
the grid. trails scored, likelihood and significance,
I would expect the chair of audit to be included somewhere and that this is, as Councillor Hinchcliffe says, there needs to be clear political in and sequencing of this.
thank you, Councillor Lesley Jones, come in.
Debbie Simpson - 1:00:26
Well, I just want to agree with colleagues
Cllr Sam Firth (Leeds City Council) - 1:00:28
the same things before. I think the ultimate view is the fact that we need to be absolutely clear that, obviously, in the report, the the figures that are provided or are even out of date, whether not making a political point, but the fact, when it comes to inflation and other things like that, we may see inflation rise and, as a result, if we haven't been able to analyse those results for six months, then we need to find the other mechanism to do that and potentially take you further up the chain given the nature of the situation and given that, unfortunately, one a time that we can't have that report, given the current financial climate that we're in but appreciate. Colleagues already said those points
thank you.
Debbie Simpson - 1:01:07
did you want to come back on that, so thank you.
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:01:11
and value the comments that have been made around the table and what takeaway from that is if there's anything.
significant or serious that's arisen since the last time the committee has seen that risk register, then we will, we will draw that to your attention chair.
and the need for that clear written protocol in terms of roles and responsible
those escalate
and again this committee would want to see and have the confidence that that's in place, so they added.
it is.
Debbie Simpson - 1:01:51
thank you.

13 Code of Corporate Governance

agenda Item 13
rests on revised code of corporate governance, Caroline thing is, is you again please?
please, thank you, Chair. This is me this is this is rather, this is
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:02:12
quite a light touch report. I think it's it's flagging. It has appended to it a copy of the revised code itself. The The report sets out at paragraph 2.5, the changes that had been made to that and why they've been made think he also recognises that things are moving so quickly internally that further revisions do
dress in particular.
the delivery of mass transit, bus reform and potentially deeper devolution deal, so this it's again, it's it's probably it's a point in time
revision that is in front of members at the moment that does need further revision, and again we are aiming to do that and have that back to this committee for its October meeting, some very happy to take any questions, but that that is the purpose of bringing it at this point.
Debbie Simpson - 1:03:08
thank you for any questions.
no, I sort of got one common PSPOs which links back to the earlier agenda item on the dashboard,
this is a really key document in terms of the governance, isn't it, and some of my question really is, how do we know that what's written in here is actually working
and some of it will be implicit because we will, received that this committee reports on some of this but
other areas
of work. like you say you say we will manage data, how do we know that that's actually going to work, so are there any measures around this that we could put in and including the dashboard, so that we know that the model itself is working?
that's
Caroline Allen, Head of Legal & Gov Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:03:53
a really good comment, really good challenge back,
I think, absolutely yes, I think one of the ways to try and avoid separate processes running is to when we bring the dashboard is to have that cross-referencing. I think between this tween what we're saying in the Corporate Code and the dashboard itself, so 1 refers 1 refer references back to the other and as part of pulling together the dashboard, what we will do is take this code and the actions in it and identify where we can have very clear, measurable.
performance indicators or targets are they in the dashboard, if it has to be a bit more of an iterative way of measuring against it? What is how do we do that and actually bring that back as a cross-reference piece of work to give this committee the assurance that that's happening and also so we know the committee can know where to look or we look to provide that information in a slightly different way. So yeah, Fair challenge,
let's whether I can complete that by October
I will endeavour to, but if it's still working progress at that point, I'll bring forward what we have done and identify what still needs to be done, that's acceptable, so
Debbie Simpson - 1:05:05
thank you very much OK any other questions.
no, thank you, I think that brings us to the end of the meeting, so thank you all very much.