Governance & Audit Committee - Friday 25 July 2025, 10:00am - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance & Audit Committee
Friday, 25th July 2025 at 10:00am 

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  1. Sarah Naylor, Committee Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Cllr Mike Pollard
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  3. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  4. Cllr Mike Pollard
  5. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Cllr Mike Pollard
  7. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Cllr James Homewood
  9. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  10. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  12. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  13. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  14. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  16. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  17. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  18. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  19. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  20. Cllr Mike Pollard
  21. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  22. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  23. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  24. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  25. Natalie Rotherham
  26. Chris Thompson
  27. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  28. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  29. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  30. Cllr Silvia Dacre
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  4. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Cllr Mike Pollard
  6. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Cllr Stewart Golton
  8. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  3. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  4. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  5. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Cllr Stewart Golton
  8. Cllr Usman Ali
  9. Cllr Stewart Golton
  10. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  2. Cllr Mike Pollard
  3. Cllr Susan Lee-Richards
  4. Natalie Rotherham
  5. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Cllr Mike Pollard
  7. Natalie Rotherham
  8. Cllr James Homewood
  9. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  12. Natalie Rotherham
  13. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  15. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  16. Cllr James Homewood
  17. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  18. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Daniel Watson
  2. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  3. Daniel Watson
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  1. Rob Forrest
  2. Rob Forrest
  3. Mike Ford
  4. Mike Ford
  5. Rob Forrest
  6. Mike Ford
  7. Rob Forrest
  8. Mike Ford
  9. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Mike Ford
  11. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  12. Mike Ford
  13. Cllr Stewart Golton
  14. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
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  1. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  3. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  4. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  7. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  11. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  12. Cllr Mike Pollard
  13. Cllr Mike Pollard
  14. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Cllr James Homewood
  16. Cllr James Homewood
  17. Natalie Rotherham
  18. Cllr James Homewood
  19. Natalie Rotherham
  20. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  21. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  22. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  23. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  24. Cllr Silvia Dacre
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  1. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  2. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Mike Pollard
  4. Cllr Mike Pollard
  5. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  7. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  8. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  10. Cllr James Homewood
  11. Cllr Mike Pollard
  12. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  13. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  14. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  15. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  16. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  17. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  18. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  19. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  2. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Mike Pollard
  4. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  5. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  6. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Cllr Stewart Golton
  8. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Chris Thompson
  10. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  12. Natalie Rotherham
  13. Cllr James Homewood
  14. Natalie Rotherham
  15. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  2. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  3. Chris Thompson
  4. Natalie Rotherham
  5. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  6. Natalie Rotherham
  7. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
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  1. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  2. Cllr Mike Pollard
  3. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  4. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  5. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  7. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  8. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  10. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  12. Cllr Mike Pollard
  13. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  14. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  16. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  17. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  18. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  19. Cllr Silvia Dacre
  20. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  21. Natalie Rotherham
  22. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  4. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  5. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
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  1. Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Webcast Finished

Right, morning everybody. We're going to, just before we start streaming, I thought
it'd be good if we just have a quick round the table just to introduce us
seeing as we've got so many new faces today. So shall I start and then we'll pass
around to Ben. So I'm Debbie Simpson, I'm the Chair of Governments and Audit, so
welcome to you all. Thank you Debbie, I'm Ben Still.
Right, so welcome to Governments and Audits 25th of July.
Agenda item 1's apologies for absence.
Good morning, Chair.
Thank you.
Sarah Naylor, Committee Services (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:00:50
We have apologies for absence from Councillor Falakamid and Councillor Mike Fallard is attending
as a substitute.

1 Apologies for Absence

We also have Councillor Galton attending this morning from Lisa to Council but he's running
15 minutes late
Thank you and agenda item to any declarations of interest from anybody

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:01:14
Formally for transparency in anything relating to West Yorkshire police finances. My son is a response officer
Okay, thank you and agenda item three this is

3 Exempt Information - Possible Exclusion of the Press and Public

For exempt items, officers are recommending that a gender item 12, appendix 7 is excluded
from being discussed in public. So what we would do at that item is take questions and
everything apart from that agenda item, close the session and discuss it and then reopen
again. Are members of the committee happy to accept the officer's recommendation of
That's private matter.
Yes?
Yeah.
Okay, thank you.
So can you note that's accepted.
Gender item four is minutes of the last meeting, held in April.

4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 28 April 2025

I appreciate many of you here today weren't at that meeting,
but those of you who were, have you got any comments or amendments to the minutes?
Yes, one minute.
Chair Alistair Newell just asked me to know that he was in attendance at the last committee but isn't listed on the attendance.
Thank you.
So we move on to agenda item 5 and that's to confirm the governance arrangements for this committee.

5 Governance Arrangements

These are actually approved at West Yorkshire Combined Authority annual meeting on the 19th of June.
So, there is more information, but Ben, did you want to add anything to this item or not?
No? Okay. Are there any pressing queries or comments on those, bearing in mind that they are for note?
No? Okay, thank you. So, can we just make note that the Government's Audit Committee has seen that particular item?
Thank you.

6 Annual Audit Report & Opinion

Agenda item six is the annual audit report and opinion, and this considers the effectiveness
of the combined authorities finance risk management and control arrangements.
And for new members of our committee, there is an explanation in the cover paper about
the breadth and scale of the work that's been indicated to inform the opinion.
There's a significant amount of information in the report.
So Bron, do you want to highlight any key points within it?
Thank you, Chair.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:42
So effectively, as you've just pointed out, the cover report sort of sets out all the
background.
The important bit, and probably the only bit that people are interested in highlighting,
is the actual opinion itself.
And this year the opinion is more adverse than the previous year.
In the report and in subsequent papers we reflect on the fact that the organisation
has grown quite significantly over the year.
We've got a lot of additional responsibilities.
We've got new funding streams, new major projects.
And some of the underpinning control frameworks and
underpinning governance arrangements are not yet
embedded, still need time to actually develop.
We think there's a lot of work to be done around
understanding of control frameworks in the business.
So as an audit function, we're going to focus on a
lot of education and awareness raising within
the business over the next couple of years.
That's all going to come to you in the future in the internal audit strategy which we're
currently developing.
So that's one to note.
But effectively the opinion, while saying that it is less than adequate this year, there
are only three opinion ratings that we use.
There's adequate, less than adequate and inadequate.
We do not believe, or I do not believe, it is my opinion, that the whole of the system
is inadequate.
We don't think that there is an endemic failing across the system.
but we do think there are pockets where we really need to strengthen controls and governance.
And it's reflected, I think, in the work that's been done, the number of minimal limited assurance
reports, et cetera.
But that needs to be reflected against the fact that there are also a number of reasonable
assurance reports, so we are absolutely intent on focusing in on the specific areas that
need the progress that is going to shore up the foundations.
I think they're a continually growing organisation.
So other than that, I'm really happy to take questions
on any of the content.
Very happy to hear opinions and thoughts.
Thanks, Bron.
So I think we've got a number of hands going up to David
and then Councillor Pollard.
And then Councillor Hill.
Thank you.
Thanks, Bron.
Just interesting how marginal maybe
that opinion of less than adequate
was in relation to being inadequate.
Because looking at the definition you're talking about a small number of areas of weakness
and then I look at the list on page 31 of seven reoccurring themes across the directors
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 0:06:05
that feels to me pretty comprehensive list and pretty widespread.
I just wonder whether to what degree the decision was a marginal one between less than adequate
and inadequate.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:06:18
I think what I would point out and those themes are across the audits that we have done.
That's not a comprehensive review of the whole system.
And I think what we would be very hesitant to do
is to say that the whole of the system is inadequate.
The themes are actually a really helpful pointer
to where people need to be going and where we haven't
had specific assurances or other external assurances
to go and make sure that they are just being mindful of that.
And that's why we put that into the report this year.
It is a new section.
We thought that was quite an interesting guide
to the business to help them think about what kind of things are coming out.
But it is specific to the areas that we've audited.
So I think on balance, and I did have a very strong and long internal debate as to exactly
where the opinion should land, it's married up as well with the expectation of what the
organisation can do to actually fix this.
And I am confident that with the will and the support of all of the directors and the
leadership team, this is something that we can get a grip on.
We can absolutely make sure that we are building the foundations
really strongly to take us forward in what presumably will be
continuing efforts to deliver more to do that in a way that is
in line with the public sector ethos.
So not marginal really.
I was quite clear I think at the end of the day that less than
adequate was the right reflection for where we are.
And it does reflect on the fact that actually systems have
changed in some very fundamental areas like our ERP system.
That does need work and that's highlighted consistently through the report.
Does that answer your question?
Thank you, Councillor Pollard.
Thank you, Chair. Just to take Mr Merritt's query just a little bit further.
Page 23, the annual opinion.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:08:04
Reasonable expectation that with continued focus and commitment,
substantial progress can be achieved in strengthening these frameworks.
Any clue as to timeline for that?
Can I be cheeky and suggest that maybe for management to respond to?
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:08:19
Because I know there is a lot of work going on to look at the kind of management responses
to the opinion.
I think from my point of view and working with the internal officer boards, et cetera,
there is a lot of time and attention being given to this.
I think it's a valid point in terms of are we doing it quickly enough?
I think that is something that we will want to cheque in with management regularly through
the year to make sure that is actually happening.
So I'm confident it can be, it's really a case now of seeing how quickly management
do respond and take things forward.
So can we come back to that in terms of the management response which is the agenda item
9?
Or did you want to come back to that now, Ben?
I'll have it, I don't mind.
So don't serve take it now then yeah
Thank you chair so
Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:09:13
so
Really good questions and really welcome bronze report
The I think the things to say from a from management perspective are
We we take bronze work and the the the findings that one has concluded really seriously
It does matter to us really
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:09:33
considerably what the I a opinion is
is. I think Bron has set the scene nicely for some of the things that I want to say,
though. But I want to start by saying, even though we�re on a journey, and even though
this organisation is under considerable opportunity and challenge through change, through the
devolution programme, through expectations about what combined authorities will do in the future,
None of that is any excuse or reason for complacency.
And indeed, during times of change,
we need to have even more focus on governance,
controls, and risk to make sure that the organisation is safe
during these transformation and change processes.
That doesn't mean we get it right all the time,
but we definitely strive to achieve that.
And what does that mean in terms of the organisation
over the last year?
We have, the mayor was reelected and returned to office in May
2024.
Her manifesto commitments were all about delivering on the
things that she had promoted during her first term.
And so, the organisation was already on a pathway to
fundamentally changing what it does,
moving away from being an advisory policy strategy
organisation to a delivery organisation.
And so what we are facing now is the delivery of large -scale programmes, including one of
the largest locally delivered transport programmes in the country, the West Yorkshire -Mash Transit,
the taking into public ownership of the entire bus network over the next three or four years,
and then delivering a host of other programmes, particularly things like housing retrofit,
that are significant in their own right.
Making sure that we've got the right control for risk
and governance in place during that process
has been absolutely critical.
But one of the immediate constraints
was that in the past years, we've
had a single management leadership board through which
the vast majority of decisions have been taken
over a certain financial scale.
And we recognised two years ago that that
was proving a bottleneck for the organisation.
We needed to empower directors.
We needed to delegate and devolve controls
in decision making through the organisation
if we were to have the bandwidth to deliver
on the multiple fronts that the future is
going to require us to do.
And so Bron's report and opinion is
written in the context of that fundamental change
in governance with the associated
change of how we treat risk, internal decision making, relationships with external boards
during that time.
So it's in that context, moving to those new arrangements, that Bron's opinion has been
reported.
So what does that mean?
We have attempted in all those areas to strengthen and improve.
as you would always expect an organisation to do as it's going through change processes.
So, Satinder's predecessor, Caroline Allen, introduced directorate sign -off assurance frameworks,
signed off by directors, to give directorate level assurance that controls were in place.
We have in our transport directorates, we also have an executive director Simon
Warburton and he oversees those assurance frameworks as well. So
significant steps have been taken, significant effort has gone into in the
planning stage for some of our biggest projects particularly mass transit to
look at how we deal with with the the project controls and with risk systems
within that project framework. There's then the challenge of how we translate
that into the corporate risk reporting and controls and decision making. But we've certainly
been alive to that and trying to get that right. This is also the time for me to say
this is not an excuse by any means, but it's just a recognition that the combined authority
is one of the few parts of local government that's been expanding. And that in itself
that brings challenges, but the directorate,
the director's team in particular has grown and has changed.
And I only now have one director that has been
within the organisation for more than three years.
So I have a new and young directorate team,
many of whom, several of whom come from outside
the local government career pathways,
mostly from the private sector,
and bring that experience with them.
Now, that has been really positive, actually,
in looking at how do we plan projects,
how do we deal with risk in a way that the private sector is
more used to doing.
But of course, there's learning about how local government
works in that context.
So that's where we are on control frameworks.
On risk management, you'll see there's
a substantial paper in the pack.
We've been looking at enhancing and making
more consistent approach to risk for several years now.
We've made a lot of progress in the last six to eight months
in terms of treating risk more systematically,
putting the right layers of risk management in place,
publishing risk transparently, and updating them regularly.
There is no room for complacency in that.
And as the report and as Bronner said this morning,
treatment of that is not as consistent
as I would like across the whole of the organisation.
But culturally, the approach to risk, I think,
is becoming much more embedded.
We consider risks formally through all of our leadership
and management processes.
We're getting better as a consequence of that
at picking up cross -cutting risks
and properly mitigating those risks.
And in effect, I believe now that certainly
the corporate risk registers, they do truly reflect
the things that directors and our leadership team
spend our time worrying about.
So, but there is still definitely work to do on the
consistency and the consistent treatment of risk within
different parts of the organisation.
Governance, as I've said, we are in the process of changing
our governance arrangements to give more empowerment to
directors to allow more rapid decision making and to
increase bandwidth.
We changed those arrangements six months ago.
We've been running them for six months.
We've had a lot of learning as directors and as the corporate centre through those processes.
And Satinder is now in the process of reviewing how the first six months have gone.
And we were having a conversation about this only this morning.
Satinder's got observations and suggestions for changes that we're going to consider over
the coming weeks.
One thing that I will flag is that we've chosen also in our internal office of governance
to bring in non -executive directors to give us cheque and challenge and advice at an officer
level. We've done that to what we call the Senior Leadership Board, SLB, with directors,
with non -executive directors with experience in governance, but we've also got specialist
non -executives with infrastructure backgrounds being brought into our mass transit outcome
boards as well. So we are looking, I hope that demonstrates
that we're looking wherever we can improve and strengthen governance through whatever
means we're looking to achieve that. Assurance, we have I think what is likely
considered a best -in -class assurance framework signed off by the government annually and
which we apply to all of the projects that we operate with. So I think we have the right
framework and that provides a process map and a really strong focus on value for money
in decision making and in operation.
I think the challenge we face there is the same one
that the government faced when it
was looking at the reviewing its own Green Book processes,
because there are parallels between the two, which
is that too often, assurance is seen as a hurdle to get through
rather than a fundamental part of building a business case
and establishing good value for money in that.
So I was part of the advisory board for the government's
Green Book work.
And so we're looking to very much to bring some of that learning and expertise into our
own revisions to our assurance process.
We have a quite substantial internal change programme looking at how we strengthen our approach
to project management and how we bring in more agile project approaches going forward.
That is really important for us as we move into the combined authority being one of the
four places in the country that are taking forward a single settlement to start at the
end of March 2026, which places much greater emphasis on the agility of our decision -making
and being able to make choices between different funding streams.
Finally, the questions that have been raised by members on the speed of response to internal
audit responses reports definitely acknowledge that that has taken too long to address on
occasion. Sometimes that was because the underlying issues were taking time to resolve, for example,
in the work around assets. Sometimes it�s because it�s been part of the development
programme for the transformation projects themselves. I�m thinking of the CIA enterprise system
in that context. But I don�t think there�s been enough dialogue between the teams that
are responsible for those changes and the internal audit teams, both in terms of the
work during the production of the internal audit report and in terms of the implementation
and helping the internal audit teams understanding why things are taking longer than we might
otherwise want.
So we definitely want to work harder on that equally.
Our teams do work really closely together.
So we have had some limited assurance reports on some of the adult education budget providers.
That we see as a really positive thing because it is helping us understand the nature of
of the provider market and allowing us to improve that.
So not all of the limited assurance reports
are things that always point to the organisation,
but the majority definitely do.
So I think I'll draw a line on it there, if I may, Chair.
Just to end where I began, we take this really seriously.
Our timeline is to get ourselves back into the kind of,
dare I say, adequate position, which is the top category,
which is where we have been until this year.
We want to achieve that next year.
We, myself and the director team,
are gonna pull out every stop we can
to make sure that happens.
Not just because we want the score,
but because it's fundamental to actually being
an organisation that's in the right space
for the challenges that lie ahead.
Thank you for that.
I think that's a very useful context
and it's good to hear the plans and the commitment
to getting this right.
and Councillor, did you have a query still?
Yes, sorry, just a quick one and I apologise if this is just me getting up to speed with
Cllr James Homewood - 0:21:11
the papers and how these come to the committee. But it was just on the appendix where it had
the summary of the audit actions reports, quite a lot of it, so they explained what
audit had taken place, what the findings were, but then a lot of it just said and there's
some recommendations. And I know there's a report later that was looking at actions,
but then I couldn't always see correlation between the two things and I was just trying to understand
How do we assure ourselves? Okay, and all that's been completed is a minimal finding
But how do we know actions are in place and on track and is that in a different report?
That's going to come another time. I just wanted to cheque
Yeah, and should we come back to that under the management response? That would be good. Thank you
Yeah, thanks, thanks chair and I was quite comfortable with bronze overall opinion
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:22:00
but I just wonder from a perspective of clarity for the committee,
of just being able to reflect in the summary of work
which aspects of governance, risk or controls was the main focus
and therefore being able to link a little bit clearer your opinion
in those three areas based on the work that you've done.
I could see obviously having seen the summary progress report, the genesis of your opinion,
but I think it might help the committee for next year and probably progress reports have
just been able to see the focus of the audits and the key recommendations that come out
and how they relate to governance risk or controls.
perhaps also the key issues arising from advisory work because I know that it's not just the
opinions that form your overall opinion, it's management's response to pieces of advisory
work as well so just seeing how they have contributed to your opinion in breadth and
depth I think would be helpful moving forward.
and then just one very small point I guess, I noted that technical issue that you don't
sort of seem to report in your own name but you make reference to currently report to
Kate, is that something that is being looked at in terms of structural changes?
Sorry, I always do this at the wrong time, I need to clear my throat. That is something
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:23:47
that is under discussion, I meet regularly with Ben, we do talk about the reporting lines,
we are clear that there is still room for improvement there. Are you meaning about the
report papers being in mine and the director's name effectively?
Yeah effectively because as head of internal audit there is an expectation that you report
in your own name to demonstrate that independence and it's a slightly technical point but you
make reference that you currently report to Kate, which obviously inferred that there was likely change to that.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:24:22
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:24:26
I'll just pick that. So Bron reports to me and Bron's team and that is a functional aspect about actually making sure that the team is part of our organisation,
is part of a large director and has a support network around it. Obviously Bron is, in the head of internal audit opinion, actually fully independent.
she has a direct line to Ben in there. So there is two dual roles there. It's a bit like myself, I guess, as a Statutory Officer having a legal responsibility and also a functional responsibility as a Director of this organisation.
So Bron has full independence, but she is also part of my family, I guess, in a functional responsibility.
David, you had a query and then we've got Councillor Zafi and then Councillor Pollard.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 0:25:12
As for the minutes, last time we asked whether we could have access to the full internal
audit reports rather than just a short summary paragraph. Is there any progress in that?
We haven't seen anything coming forward on that.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:25:28
So for this next year, the next plan year, what we're aiming to do is build a repository
of information for the committee members to access outside of the meeting so you can actually
see the full report, so that is in train to develop.
And we're going to kick it off with the new audit reports that
come out this next year, which have also seen a change.
And just picking up on some of what Rob said there,
the EQA, which I'm leaping ahead to the next agenda item,
picked up a few similar queries about highlighting the risk
aspects, whether that is a governance risk, a control
risk, or what.
So we've actually changed the reporting formats
for the reports themselves which will feed through to the annual opinion at
the end of the year so hopefully you'll see that progression and it will make it
a little bit clearer. It will also help us I think to develop those themes of
where we believe there are specific concerns that we can bring to this
committee then for the formal minutes and records. So hopefully you'll see
quite a lot of change in this next plan year. We're trying to get this one put to
bed so we can actually move on and do all that positive development work which
we're quite excited about but hopefully that answers
okay councillor daycare yes thank you and so I think you're right when you
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 0:26:45
mentioned the fact that you're trying to you're doing that you're doing your
audits in the context of huge organisational change and only time will
tell whether your confidence that the limited and minimal reports that you've
and that background to that is going to be able to improve at the same time as more organisational change
and I hope you're right that that is going to improve.
I just wanted to ask firstly about the advisory reports, there's quite a lot of those, and how you decide
how it's determined when you as an organisation would carry out those rather than one of the other reports
and the other question I had was about your plan and I can't now just find
whether there was a separate document that dealt with your plans this year or
whether it was in the same one so it's a separate one so I'll ask that question
when it comes to that Sophie could just
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 0:27:50
I always do a bit of analysis just to have up my sleeve to demonstrate that
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:27:55
actually the balance of advisory and assurance work is I believe appropriate
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:27:58
So we're currently, if you look at the actual pieces of work that we've done, we're a 70 -30
split currently with assurance versus advisory.
As a head of audit, and certainly in my previous experience I'd be quite content to head to
a 60 -40 split if that was necessary, and that you tend to do when there are big change programmes
coming around and you're getting in early to give lots of critical friend advice.
So I'm quite happy that we're at the right level of that.
How we get to determining which is advisory and which is assurance is very much set out
the plan for the next year. So when we get to that agenda item you'll see we've got a
lot of assurance work planned, very little advisory work planned. But what we have done
is we've put a contingency pot into every single directorate and the conversations I'm
having with directors currently is how do you want to use that contingency, it is very
much geared to advisory work. What are you building, starting, developing, doing that
you want us to come and do early advisory work on. So by the end of the
year I'll be happy if we're at 60 40 but equally happy at 70 30 so I'm quite
content with where we are for this year.
Council Pollard did you want to come back?
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 0:29:08
Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:29:12
Thank you chair. Obviously this bit of the meeting is in the public domain. Page 31
enhancing risk management and compliance so I don't want any response to sort of
wander off into the item 12 exempt bit.
But weaknesses in risk identification, escalation,
and compliance, with particular reference to IT.
Obviously, cyber security stuff is key at the moment.
But is this purely in respect of contracts
for buying new kit and that sort of stuff,
rather than operational IT issues?
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:29:58
So very specifically it is more around what we would just term your BAU IT work. The specific
stuff around the really significant corporate risks around ICT concerns, as the Chair has
mentioned is dealt with separately in the paper further on, and we do separate pieces
of work on that. So it is much more the BAU ICT stuff.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:30:27
Thank you, Jo. It was only just on the point around the internal audit report and Bron's
ownership of it. I mean, just to give assurance, it is entirely Bron's report and we don't
seek to influence that in any way. But if it would help for future reports to have Bron
As the as the kind of owner as well as author we can easily do that to provide that clarity
Thank You councillor
Yeah, I should declare last year I was on scrutiny
So on
26 it's good to hear that the internal audit reports will be published
At some stage, so I'm particularly interested in the access bus report
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:31:11
but also there is a Flexibus report I think that hopefully will be available at some stage.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:31:14
And so I think that would be really useful to share.
Natalie Rotherham - 0:31:20
Chris Thompson - 0:31:23
And on page 28 where it says about proven fraud, I'd like to know how much was lost actually in terms of fraud.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 0:31:28
Thank you.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:31:36
So the two proven fraud cases, one related to an adult skills provider and we are going
through the debt recovery process on that. We don't know what the, we don't think that
there will actually be a loss. We think we will recover everything in that particular
case. The other one was quite a small grant that was given out to a business. It was less
than £3 ,000 so for materiality it was not significant. However, we are also still pursuing
debt recovery. We are not as confident we will get that back just because of the nature
of where that organisation is currently and where their directors are or are not, but
we are still pursuing that, so it's still going through a debt recovery process. We
do make every effort where we have proven fraud to actually make sure we do whatever
we can to secure the public funds back into the organisation.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:32:31
FlexiBus, we did that audit in the previous year, I think, so there may have been reference
to it in something.
Very happy to put that in the repository there when we share all of our audit reports.
The access bus, we had quite a long and detailed conversation with the team about the improvements
that were needed there and we have agreed management actions that will come back to
committee to report back on progress. Thank you. Councillor Daycare.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 0:33:00
Thanks, sorry. I'm struggling to find the right things in the order. So of the minimal report, minimal
assurance ones, the one that was I thought was of most concern was the
business continuity because the ones that are to do with external providers
and they've always I think been a risk ever since all of this stuff got
outsourced years ago but business continuity is entirely within the
and you're doing more and more difficult and so I was just really concerned by the situation
that's in and obviously yes we will see as time goes on how successful we are, the authorities
in changing that but that was the one that worried me most also.
Thank you. And we come back to that under management actions.
Yes, absolutely.
Management responses, yes, thank you.
Okay, so if there are no other questions, can we note that the committee has considered the paper? Thank you.
And we'll move on to the external quality assessment and improvement plan, which is a gender item 7.

7 External Quality Assessment & Quality Implementation Plan

So I think there's some very positive aspects in that.
So well done to Bron and the team for that.
I think the recommendations are very welcome because they should help us further strengthen the governance.
And some of the actions have already been discussed by this committee and are in train, which is encouraging that we're on the front foot.
Bron, did you want to update us on the current position or add anything to the report or Kate?
No, not particularly. I'm very happy to take questions.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:32
It is the answer to the who audits the auditor question.
That is what the EQA report effectively is.
It was quite a difficult process.
I'm not sure that I would go through the peer review process
again.
I think asking one of the professional bodies
to come in and do the assessment is probably a lot faster,
a lot quicker, because we felt like we waited quite a long
time to get the report, and we were
keen to take actions forward.
And so that's just a reflection on the process.
But we don't have another one now for another five years
So what we do need to do is make sure that actually we don't just rest on our laurels having done
Well here, but to keep bringing back to this committee our quality improvement plan
that's really where the change sits in terms of progressing the
Quality of the internal audit function. So that's what we will keep bringing back to this committee
Thanks, bro. Not nuts going to be one of my points
we can have a regular report back on progress, that would be really useful.
I also wondered when you get the repository going, if it would be useful to drop the standards
against which they audit you into that so we can understand that.
So that piece of work is ongoing at the moment.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:44
So the EQA currently has been dropped into our quality improvement plan.
The work on the gap analysis against the new audit standards is underway and we will drop
that into the QA, the quality improvement plan as well.
So you will see that in its totality and we'll make sure it's clear which relates to both and which relates to one or the other
Thank you, so questions from members
Thanks chair and
obviously this
EQA was against the old
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:36:21
public sector internal standards, obviously, we've got new ones and
You're quite right to be off the hook for another
inspection for five years, I think it would be helpful for the committee as inevitably
you will as part of your quality assurance improvement programme to see your self -assessment
at some point in the next sort of 12, 18 months against the new standards. Because whilst
they don't change significantly, there are some significant nuances that obviously for
committee's assurance that you are responding to those new standards and requirements.
I think that would be really helpful and I was hoping that at some point we might want
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:04
to do a workshop session around that so we can actually dive into it and if we could
link that to not just the self -assessment against the standards by the team but also
to the assessment of the team by the business, which is also an annual requirement and I
thought it would be very helpful to link those, but a workshop seems like a better place to
of really dig into the detail as it were if everybody's amenable to that we can
put that on the plan.
I'm in support of that, thank you.
Councillor Conlon.
Thank you, just a very minor one on this one on page 59, recommendation 9.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:37:38
To ensure that the team is able to use the data analytics skills it has, it is
recommended that appropriate analytics software is made available to the team.
So just a slightly raised eyebrow there, so how is data analysis currently being done without appropriate software?
So we had a slight difference of opinion with the auditor on this one.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:59
We do have data analytics software, we do use it, but it's currently only on three of our team's laptops and that's a licencing issue.
They felt it was really important that every member of the team had access to the data analytics.
We couldn't actually disagree that that wouldn't be helpful, but nonetheless it didn't it suggests that we're not doing something that we currently are
We did bring a data analytics report to the previous audit committee, which again for new members
We're happy to put in that repository so you can see what the the plan is and that's forming part of the internal audit strategy
overall, so that data analytics fits it
We absolutely value the use of data analytics and getting we want to get to continuous real -time auditing as quickly as we can
So, yeah, it is there.
We are using it.
Thank you.
Any further questions?
No?
Okay.
So we'll wait for an update, Bron, on progress and, as Rob suggested, against new plants.
Sorry, yeah.
Can I ask one question?
I'm a little bit confused about the terminology.
Cllr Stewart Golton - 0:39:06
It's Recommendation 15 and it talks about the effectiveness of WICAA's ethics related
objectives, programmes and activities. What do you mean by ethics?
So a number of awarding bodies for internal auditors have a requirement for audit teams
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:39:27
to do ethics training and it's ethics in relation to the conduct of their work. So the awarding
bodies differ in what they require.
So we, in the run up to this EQA,
our process had been to allow auditors
to do whatever fit with the requirements of their auditing
body.
But what the auditor was drawing out
was actually the need to then translate that
into how the CA audit team approaches
those ethical standards and making sure it was
consistent across the team.
So we're building that into our team development programme.
And in fact, we have a workshop coming up on the ethics
so that we can actually make sure that we're not all just
applying our own independent professional bodies ethical standards
and what they require but that we do as a team have a consistent approach as
well so it was about normalising and making sure that it was more
comprehensive.
No further questions? No so if you can note that the committee has commented on
the action plan and the audit itself. Thank you.

8 Audit Plan 2025-26 - Final Approval

Agenda item 8, and we're still on audit, so this is for the committee to give final approval
for the 2526 audit plan. And at April G &A the committee saw the draught plan and we had
the opportunity to comment on that. So this revised plan reflects those comments, although
I appreciate it's the first time the new members will have seen it.
So Bron, any key things that you want to draw out before we go to questions?
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:41:03
Just to confirm that the additional areas we highlighted verbally at the last committee
are built into the plan, so everybody should be seeing everything that's been agreed today.
But also to highlight that following the issuing of the opinion and having regular conversations
with the directors to build in those contingency advisory pieces that I mentioned.
So again, we will reiterate, we will bring the plan back so the committee will always
see the latest position and we will continue to do the reprioritisation exercise for every
quarterly update where we move things from the do later and the do next into the do now
and reprioritise the kind of rolling programme.
you should get a regular sense of where we are, what's important, what is reflecting
the kind of current risk profile in the organisation.
Thank you, any questions? Rob?
Just very quickly, if we can have the workshop on internal audit, which I think would be
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:42:04
a really good idea, if we could include the rationale for audit planning within that,
again I think that might help the committee appreciate what the process you go through
to come up with these things.
Yeah, that was picked up in the EQA as well,
so we're on with that.
Councillor De Koo.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:42:24
Thank you.
So, I know we're going to answer yes to this,
because otherwise you wouldn't have said it,
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 0:42:30
but I just want reassurance really around the capacity
and in your plan for follow -up,
because obviously there's a lot of follow -up for you,
arising from some of those limited and minimal audit reports and also grants
and I suppose I only say this because at Calderdale we certainly got tripped up
by grants and huge numbers of those suddenly coming in and diverting audit
capacity from other from what was on the plan so and as I say a large amount of
follow -up so just you're comfortable with you've got that capacity and that
balance right. So on the grants question particularly we're doing a lot of work internally at the
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:43:15
moment on grant management generally. Included within that is work we've done in the team
to identify our grant pipeline so that we're not caught out. But we've also developed a
protocol in terms of the audit view on grant sign off, which I think is sitting with the
finance team at the moment is to look at taking that forward with the DOFs to agree how that
protocol might be widened out. So it's not just – so we've done it obviously for
our organisation, but it might apply elsewhere. So there's a lot of work going on around
that because that is something that can suddenly absorb almost all your capacity with very
little forward warning. We're in a much better position than we were last year and
the year before. Sorry, the second question – the first question, rather, can you remind
me what that was.
Yeah and we do we absolutely do build that into the plan and that's why we
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:44:17
keep contingency so we we need to be mindful that we don't overextend
ourselves on the contingency but that is part of the reprioritization exercise we
would have to do and we'd have to think about what was the more significant risk
at that point. Yes, continually in our mind.
Sorry, it's more of a general question than a specific reference to the report. Following
Cllr Stewart Golton - 0:44:42
on from the question from Councillor Daker, we do have employees within the organisation
whose responsibility is to carry out the valuation of money which is spent with outside organisations
the
I'm not sure how much of that evaluation remit is associated
with good financial and governance activity to enable
you to carry out your internal audit role so that you are not
distracted as a professional to look at stuff because there is
Cllr Usman Ali - 0:45:19
Cllr Stewart Golton - 0:45:23
already good practise within that evaluation process. Can you
So I will be in a better position to answer that question when we finish some work that
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:45:32
we've got ongoing at the moment around assurance mapping. We are very mindful, we are not the
only assurance provider in the organisation, nor is there a kind of a detailed understanding
of where and what those assurances are covering, so to answer your question about whether it
is focused on the financial aspects, the governance aspects, etc. I'm working with the governance
I'm looking at Natalie because she's
the lead for government's risk and compliance.
She and I are working on developing that assurance
mapping for the organisation, which not only sort of gives
you an idea of where there might be gaps
and where there might be a need for us to step in to do
some more formal work, but we'll also
identify where there may be some duplication, where we can
actually say we can do less there because actually that's
doing that really well.
So we are in train with that piece of work.
it's going to be quite a significant step forward in the visual sort of understanding
of the organisation as to where all these assurances sit. So we are very, very mindful
that that's a powerful piece of work that we need to crack on with. So if I can bring
that back to the committee, I will happily do that and again if the committee wants a
separate session on that to look at that in more detail, I'm also happy to manage that.
Thanks, Ron. I think I know you're going to bring it back to the committee because it's
piece of work we've been asking for for a while but you just haven't had the capacity
to do. But that will also help inform the work of this committee and areas we might
want to test as well as the committee. So it's going to be a hugely important document
for this group. So I think if we could have a session on it and work out what we as a
committee want to do with that information once we see it, I think it's important.
Any other queries? Yes, Councillor.
I don't know if it's appropriate or not, but still, on the home's energy item 16, I just
wondered what's happened to the one -stop energy shop, which may have been going to start in
April this year.
Ron?
Sorry, Kate, did you want to stay?
Ben's happy to take it as well, Ron, if you want.
Ben, feel free.
Thank you, Chair.
I mean, so just in terms of the project itself,
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:47:52
the one -stop shop is, its first incarnation
is as a website for where people can go for information
about the range of retrofit and home energy improvement
projects and advice that is available.
That is due for launch in the autumn,
so the work is proceeding.
That's where it is in the programme.
So the work's carrying on.
Any other questions on that agenda item?
Can I ask if the committee approved the plan?
Can you raise your hands?
Thank you very much.
Yes, I think the committee approved the plan.
Thank you very much.
Agenda item 9, that's the management response to internal audit recommendations.

9 Management Response to Internal Audit Recommendations

So the committee has asked to note the management response and to review and comment on the
updates on the internal audit recommendations.
This for members information, the management response was recently separated from the audit
recommendations into a separate paper.
However, my feeling is that the report isn't really giving the committee the clarity on
actions to be taken on the progress that we intended by splitting the report out.
It also feels slightly disjointed from the audit findings, that we're discussing them
separately like this.
So I would propose that this probably needs a bit of extra work, but I'd welcome members'
thoughts on that.
David?
Yeah, I think we can see some clear progress here, which is good.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 0:49:36
There's some better information here and some progress on clearing points, but there's still
a long way from where it needs to be.
We seem to have lost the table that was showing us the analysis of the outstanding points those points that gone past you
Rage so we need to have that back in so we can have visibility last time around there were like 57 actions
That were still outstanding which is
Far from where we need to be
And all the way through here. I think we can see
Quite a few missing dates quite a few vague dates quite a few vague and statements
I'll just highlight one maybe then going through loads of them
For example, page 97, and this is one area
we might want to cover in our closed session.
Vulnerability management, the point is about
clearing a vulnerabilities backlog.
The comments are really about the process
that is now in place to monitor the backlog.
Doesn't say anything about the backlog
or when that will be cleared.
So unless we can get some clarity on
actually clearing the point, I think that's
the sort of information I think we're missing.
And we need to see a lot more of here,
but this is a lot better than where we started out
and having it set, but I think it's the right way.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:50:46
As a Bradford member, well cognizant of the dramas we had with the transport interchange,
just looking at page 95, there's actually a blank space in the management response to
the recommendation there on the health and safety team coordinating with bus station
managers and relevant officers to access to building condition surveys. And that had an
agreed due date with the business partner of 31st August last year. So just a little
update on what the storey is there with regard to procurement of asset management surveys.
Cllr Susan Lee-Richards - 0:51:21
Ben, did you want to come back on that or who would like to take that?
Natalie Rotherham - 0:51:38
I'm just wanting to cheque that I've got the correct recommendation because on the report
that I see here it says this recommendation is dependent on the work of the facilities
team. Is that the recommendation you meant, Manda?
I'm looking at page 95 and the narrative recommendation is that the health and safety team coordinate
with bus station managers and relevant officers, etc, etc.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:52:02
And there's a blank space in the response column there.
And I was just wondering what the current storey is with regard
to the procurements of these asset management surveys
Cllr Mike Pollard - 0:52:13
with its original agreed date of 31st August last.
So the column is blank.
There is a response in the final column which commits
Natalie Rotherham - 0:52:24
to asset management surveys are currently being procured and that is part of a wider
assets policy for the combined authority.
And then there will be a further update once those surveys have been undertaken and the
outcomes are known in terms of delivering the recommendation.
But certainly we could go back to exploring why that second column has been left blank
and completed for next time.
I think that Councillor Holm would.
Yeah, thank you.
Cllr James Homewood - 0:53:04
So it falls on, I guess, some of the comments earlier and bearing in mind this is the first
time I'm looking at this so I haven't seen the progress that's come forward.
My only thoughts were, additional thoughts were I'm not sure in my mind that a recommendation
is the same as an action. So I'm not sure here I always understand. So we've made a
recommendation but what actually is the action that was agreed and sometimes is a recommendation
then a management response and then there's a difference, there's not always the same
level of information that's provided to each one so I think it would be helpful for us
to understand, okay there was a recommendation but what actually has been agreed to is a
management action to take part in that, to complete that. And then I think the second
point was what had already been sort of mentioned earlier which is I found it quite difficult
to understand the dates and things, why are the dates that are well past, there's no revision,
there's no explanation. I think to me it would be useful to have something like a RAG status
on these that are either overdue or on track or something like that, which would help us
then focus on the significant actions that are overdue and then potentially if that continues
to happen then we can have management come in to explain why those actions are overdue
etc. So yeah, that was it really, just how it kind of, the improvements I guess that
could be made.
Absolutely, those are very good points. I actually found when I was reading it that
it felt that some of the actions were very vague as well and also some of the items were
closed off when I was questioning whether they really should have been. So it said put
training in place or undertake training, were like training in place closed? I thought well
no because it has to be undertaken and understood before it's closed. So I think there's quite
a bit of tidying up and maybe if people have any thoughts on that we can feed them in outside
of this meeting, can we just for the sake of time and then you could bring something
back to us? I actually do think this process needs reconsidering
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:54:55
because I think we have attempted to deal with it in a way that has made it more confusing.
Because management are now responding to a separate team with the update for this paper,
we don't have the opportunity to really challenge that and make sure that those
actions are complete because we've seen the evidence, we've tested it. So I think
it would be better if this did come from audit rather than from another team with
absolutely the emphasis on just as Councillor Homewood has suggested
management coming to speak to the actual content of those action updates as
opposed to an indecise, is this a completed action or is it not?
Because it's been reported as completed to Natalie,
doesn't mean we've signed it off.
So I think we're adding a level of complexity
here that is not helpful.
And I would prefer to take ownership of this back,
but with a fuller report.
So we could absolutely include it in our papers.
With all of the points that I think
are really valid about management recommendations
and actions and responses, etc, being much more clear about what is responding to our
new reporting style is also driving that. I mentioned we changed the way we are reporting,
we have done a little bit of tidying up around that so that the reports are clearer with
clear owners, clear specific actions to address the findings. So hopefully you will see a
lot more clarity going forward. But if the committee are content for me to reacquire
this reporting, I am really happy to do that.
Thanks, Bron. Before we sort of discuss that, I think Ben wants to come in and then Councillor
Jenkins. Thank you, Chair. Well, it's just to agree
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:56:38
with Bron, really. I think that's a helpful suggestion. I was going to suggest three things,
particularly in relation to the assets point that's been raised, because I don't think
it's great that there's a blank box in the report. I think insofar as that needs specific
date telling, we'll pass a note round back to the committee on that in between meetings
just so there's clarity on by when those actions will be undertaken.
I think the second thing is I think Bron's view around there's an opportunity here for
the committee to ask officers to come and explain the situation because obviously they
might have a set of perspectives that would help the committee understand why things haven't
been or have been achieved.
So maybe or maybe assets which is and I particularly raised
Assets in my opening remarks because I think it is near where we still need to do more work
But the committee could ask some more button or team Taylor to come to the next committee to talk about that specifically
And and then a completely agree on rag ratings and the traffic light colours as well
Which we use internally. So so it's probably just something that's got it's got drops, but we need to put it back
It's very helpful visually
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:57:54
I just wondered how many exit interviews have been carried out and what the results were.
And on EDI, we've done a lot of work in Leeds City Council on EDI issues and where it talks
about having a toolkit. I'm sure we could learn, the combined authority could learn
I think from our council about probably Bradford and Colterdale and the others as well. But
in particular also around misogyny as an issue.
Thank you. Did anyone want to come back on that observation or not, any of the officers?
Natalie Rotherham - 0:58:36
In terms of the exit interviews, they are voluntary. So that may explain some of the
figures around that and I know that HR colleagues are looking at ways to encourage people to
participate in those exit interviews because they in fact provide a lot of valuable information
to enable us to better manage people's career options and their experience of working for
the combined authorities so it is something that HR do have in hand.
And for reassurance of the members of the committee we have a very active EDI team,
very small but very active within the organisation,
providing advice and steer and looking to make sure
that via the steering group, which is chaired by one
of the directors, is on top of the business
that needs to be done in terms of ensuring
that we don't rest on our laurels.
We know that we've had increased diversity
in the staff numbers, but seeking to make sure
that that runs right through the organisation.
and in fact yesterday we were just talking, colleagues were talking about how to enhance
pipelines for ensuring that all parts of our communities are encouraged to join the combined
authority.
Thanks, Natalie.
Dan.
Just to add to Natalie's comments, my understanding is that the team work already worked very
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:59:55
closely with the local authorities and there's quite a lot of sharing of best practise across
the place.
Thank you.
Anif?
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:00:13
further questions on that so council daycare sure to say that I think my
role here is to oversee the effectiveness of the internal audit
procedures and so it's fine to have directors or whoever it might be to come
and answer for why things haven't been done but to some extent that's your job
and our job is just to make sure that you're doing that properly rather than actually start
taxing the officers about what might even be concerned about how to make sure we get
the balance right of us not diving into your job.
I think that's fair. I think the process bit, absolutely, I own that and that's why I want
to wrestle it back because I think it sits better with that oversight from us. In terms
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:00:56
of the content though I think the committee should always be able to call
management in to to answer for the progress they're making is it quickly
enough is what they're actually doing really sufficient in the view of the
committee so I think there is a balance then is just about finding the right
the call from this committee for the areas that they really need to exercise
their governance overview of but yeah I'm very clear the process should and is
I think it's important that we don't get bogged down in the specific details of actions and
Cllr James Homewood - 1:01:33
decisions but I think there is a benefit where important action plans aren't being delivered
that the ability to summon someone to come to a committee can make a difference in terms
of getting those explanations and getting actions done which I think we should make
sure we have the ability to do.
Yeah, thank you. And we have done that before and it has been very valuable. But if we are
going to see the management responses in the way they are, what does that mean in terms
of is the system broken, which is Councillor Dacre's point, and it's a very valid one,
isn't it, what's it telling us about the effectiveness of governance in order that things aren't
being closed off. So I think rather than, as well as looking at the detail, the committee
needs to consider that bigger picture as well. Ben, do you want to comment?
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:02:19
It's just a group both those points from council and one encounter take a really I think I think there was a balance to protect as one said
but
You're absolutely right. I think there's also an overlap or potential overlap with scrutiny
See council Anderson in the audience in terms of who's talking is to look at the kind of the content issues
So can I suggest that
maybe you bring back a proposal for how this could be adjusted to the next
committee because I don't think we've got time to do it just today to discuss
it. I think we take a bit of a workshop but if you could come back with some
thoughts on how we can accommodate everybody's views and get what we need to
as a committee to give us the assurance.
Can I propose that I bring a report, a new report back and give the committee an
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:03:07
opportunity to look at something and say whether that meets the purpose or not.
The committee are happy with that.
Thank you. Is the committee happy with that approach?
Yes, thank you.
So if you can note that we'll see a report at the next meeting.
Thank you. So if there are no further questions on that, we'll move to agenda item 10.

10 External Audit Report

And that's the external audit report, an update from the ZARs on the 24 -25 audit process.
Daniel Watson - 1:03:40
Thanks, Chair. As you say, this report just sets out the latest position for the 2425
audit. I suppose just to provide some context for the newer members of the committee, as
part of the government's reset and recovery position for the backstop in local audit,
we issued disclaimed opinions on both the 2223 and 2324 statement of accounts. That
That was the reset phase of the process. We're now into the recovery phase which is around
how we rebuild assurance over that period where we issue disclaimed opinions plus look
at the audits going forward so the 24 -5 accounts which are on the agenda later on.
The National Audit Office issued guidance to us in June which is called LARIG 06 on
how we rebuild that assurance and that sets out the details of the risk assessment procedures
were required to undertake and from that risk assessment then how we develop the
procedures to build those procedures over that a disclaimed opinion period.
We're planning to undertake that risk assessment as soon as possible so over
the summer months however we do expect that given the time take it will take to
complete that and carry out the rebuild procedures it is still likely that we
will issue a disclaimed opinion for the 24 -25 audit and we'll look to rebuild in
full for next year's audit. That's obviously dependent on the outcome of
that risk assessment procedure that Alistair will undertake. He will work
closely with officers to determine what rebuild work we can undertake in 24 -25
because we don't want to leave it all this year and do it next, we do want to
do some of that this year and provide the committee with some level assurance
over the 24 -25 statements. So that will focus on the more complex areas such as
things like the pension's liability, the application of the asset ceiling that's taken place over
the last couple of years and the new standard on leasing which has come in for the first
time this year so we do want to look at some of that early.
The other half of our work is our work around value for money arrangements and there has
been a change in that this year so the timetable has been decoupled from the general accounts
timetable.
So that work now has to be reported in draught by November, so we'll bring a report back to the committee setting out our findings to date.
If there are any changes between issuing that draught report and the point where we issue the audit opinion on this year's accounts,
then we will issue an updated final version of our Orchards Annual Report, but in practise we're trying to get all that work done by November
so that there aren't any changes to report back to members of the public.
I wasn't going to go into any more detail at this stage but happy to take any questions.
Thank you.
Can I just cheque if the new members of the committee are familiar with all the back storey
to the audit delays?
Yes, that's fine.
Lovely, thank you.
Kate, did you want to add anything?
Thank you, Chair.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:06:42
Just to say obviously we understand the position we're in at the moment in terms of what Daniel
is just around the likelihood of a disclaimed opinion for 2425. We have been very clear
with Alistair that we need to be back on track for 2526 with a full audit opinion. In there
there is absolute commitment from my team to do that and to get back to that position.
So obviously we will be working with Mazar and expect the same commitment back there
to get to that position. Thank you. Any questions from any members
on this. Can I just ask one, you did mention that you are expecting a report from National
Audit on whether any further work is required, have you had that?
Sorry, I asked the report I referred to that came out in June.
Daniel Watson - 1:07:29
Thank you. So if there are no further questions, we will move on to agenda item 11 and that

11 Joint Independent Audit Committee (JIAC) Annual Report

is the Joint Independent Audit Committee annual report,
and this provides information on the observations relating
to the policing and crime team and West Yorkshire Police.
This is provided annually to GNA for note,
but this is the first year that we've actually
seen this report, the full report.
So if then, is that right, Bron?
Yeah.
Yes, so we've got two people here to take us through any points of note and just to
introduce a report to us. So I'm not sure which one of you is going to take that.
Rob Forrest - 1:08:22
I'm going to go first. I wondered if there was some merit in just going back over a bit
of context in terms of the Joint Independent Order Committee for some members. So back
in 2012 when the Police and Crime Commission functions were established at the same time
Joint Independent Order Committee function was set up. They meet four times a year, comprised of four
independent members, one of those being the chair, which is Mike who's with me today. And then fast
forward to 2021 when the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner was brought into the combined
Mayor of Authority and the Mayor became the Police and Crime Commissioner. That function essentially
continued as it was and the committee is there enabled and required to have
oversight of and provide an independent review and recommendations to the Chief
Constable and the Mayor on the effectiveness of West Yorkshire Police
and the Mayor's Police and Crime Commissioner functions in relation to
governance, risk management, control frameworks, financial reporting,
governance processes and internal and external audit and as part of that to
I'm just on a point of note, can I just cheque is that right?
Yeah, that is correct, yeah.
Rob Forrest - 1:09:39
I thought, and I came last July to talk through the report.
Mike Ford - 1:09:48
I thought a copy was provided at that committee, so I would quite like that checked, because
I did the report is made public so that is it's available for all members to
review but I did think I don't know anybody was here remember that I did
present I think my report was copied last year.
I think you definitely did come and talk to the committee but I don't think there was a report as part of our papers.
Mike Ford - 1:10:08
Okay, thank you.
Just to add then the report's here today.
Rob Forrest - 1:10:14
Mike can introduce, bring out any key points and happy to answer any questions on that.
Mike Ford - 1:10:25
Yeah, I think there's reference in the cover paper to a couple of issues that we've been
discussing and I've been discussing with Ron.
One is around just double checking that our terms of reference for the Joint Dependent
Audit Committee are correct.
I am happy as chair that we comply with SITFA's guidance on police audit committees, SITFA
being the Sertawat Institute of Public Financial Accountants.
So we regularly compare our terms of reference against that best practise guidance.
However, that best practise guidance does not account for combined authority arrangement.
I have contacted Sit for Personally this year to say, look, are you doing any work to issue
a set of guidance for police audit committees who work in the combined authority environment?
And they said, oh, good idea, would you mind helping write it for us?
Which I said to which I said, no, I think it's your responsibility to provide us that
guidance.
So we are in a slight limbo.
So as a result of that, I asked Rob to carry out a review just to make sure that we work
As far as we were aware, we've got the terms of reference and the balance right between
the work of my committee, the work of this committee, the work of internal audit for
the police, the work of internal audit for the bombs team and I think you've concluded
there aren't any major gaps in that assurance, which is the main thing, to make sure we're
not letting something slip between the two committees.
You've got a final report in, you've got a report in draught on that review of the terms
and that's going to be completed fairly shortly,
is that right?
Yeah, so just briefly on that.
So I'm relatively new in post, about eight months in.
Rob Forrest - 1:12:05
So one of the things I wanted to do was undertake
a review of the assurance processes within policing crime
which encompassed the Joint Independent Order Committee
internal audit and how we were working together
and how that fits into all the different mechanisms.
So it's been through the Policing Crime Executive Board.
We're about to take it to the quarterly governance meeting
which we have with West Yorkshire Police at that point
signed off they didn't identify any assurance gaps it was more of a
assurance and reassurance piece for us
Yeah, the other thing I would thanks for would point would sort of draw
Mike Ford - 1:12:36
members attention to is on internal order where the very positive session we've from our last committee to
absolutely nail the relationship between
internal order in the combined authority
and the work of the
of GIAC and we'll be getting six monthly updates from our committee on any work that they've
done, that she and her team have done, that can provide either direct assurance to us
because it picks on a piece of particular work that Rob's team is responsible for or
it provides us indirect assurance because it covers financial controls or HR controls
or cyber security, something that gives us some indirect assurance that the control environment
within which the police and crime team operate is strong and can give us assurance around
that governance and control.
So those are the kind of two things I'd pick up about specifically that we're looking at
currently.
But otherwise, during the year, the JIAC has operated successfully in reviewing internal
audit work of the police.
The police have just reported to us that they have given their annual report gives reasonable
assurance on the internal audit.
They carried out 23 reports, 68 of which were, 68 % of which, sorry, were reason assurance
and 32 % were limited along with the number of advisory reports, the kind of things we
discussed earlier.
And so they came in an overall conclusion of reasonable.
We get regular reports on risk management.
I observe the force risk management group on a quarterly basis.
I'm also talking to Ishmael who is working with the West Yorkshire team or combined authority
team on looking at the risk management framework.
So if there's anything we can learn within the police from the work that Ishmael is doing
in the combined authority, we'll make sure that we get the best practise to come out
of both ways, both the police's risk management process and the combined authorities risk
management process.
We get regular updates from external audit.
The police is in a different position to the combined authority. We
Not had those disclaimers. We've been to file please be able to file their accounts on time for the last three years
And they're looking to file before set will conclude this year
So the timelines that required such as good and positive
We then review a number of
different processes urines framework we review
finance and budget planning, we review schema delegations,
schema concerns, and we get very specific reports
on things like procurement, treasury, business interests,
gifts and hospitality, et cetera.
And what we try to do is get at least every meeting,
hopefully every meeting we try and get a deep dive
by getting the risk, the sort of the experts
that are responsible for managing a particular risk
into the committee to give us a bit of a detailed view
about how they're managing the specific risks that are on the police's risk register and then we're going to be getting updates on any
recommendations coming out of the inspections the police go through and
making sure that those inspection recommendations are followed up. So a
pretty full agenda which we've we've successfully completed against and that
is then covered by the the annual report which shows you how we've met our terms
of reference for 2425.
So happy to take any questions.
Thank you for that.
You did mention working with bronze
to make sure things don't fall between the gaps of the two
organisations.
I think, again, for the purpose of this committee,
ensuring everything in governance is working well,
it would be good to have some assurance around that.
Will it feature at all in your assurance map?
Certainly the PCC bit will feature in the assurance map.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:16:25
but obviously we don't cover the police side of things.
But yeah, I think it is just that assurance map will cover the whole of the CA of which the PCC are a part.
Okay, so I think we need to understand where the gaps could be and how they've been addressed
or how we've made it ensured that there aren't any gaps there.
So, something to bring back around that.
I think I'm not quite sure what though.
Sorry, but I think the gap would, for me, the gap would be that no work was done on
Mike Ford - 1:16:56
the police and crime team so that we wouldn't, we, sitting in the JIAC, we wouldn't be getting
any direct assurance that any internal work, audit work had been done on the police and
crime team because it's, the West Yorkshire Police Internal Audit Team do not do work
on the police and crime team control environment.
That is done by the bronze team.
And this year we didn't have the wasn't a direct audit of anything in Rob's area on your plan for this year. So that's I
Think possibly I overstated it to call it a gap
It's just to make sure we've got the right coverage across the areas that the jack is responsible for
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:17:37
The police and crime team are part of the CA where we do work that looks at HR controls financial controls
etc. PCC team absolutely part of that. So there is work that's done that would
reflect if there were concerns in the PCC team but I believe that strongly
sits with this governance and audit committee and that actually those
assurances feed through here as do the assurances that Mike then from his
committee feeds through here so ultimately the governance sits here.
Thank you. We've got Councillor Jenkins and Councillor Gonsalves.
Yes, so looking through the report, I noted the use of reserves and deficits going up
from 9 .5 million in 2526 to 15 million in 2829.
And that the, it would be interesting to see the minutes of the JAC meeting for May, which
I don't believe I commented on the reserves numbers.
Sorry. Which? Sorry. I looked at the.
When you say the reserves number, are you looking at the police? Which report are you
looking at? It must have been in one of the linked reports.
I'd have to come back and answer that, simply. I don't believe I commented on the reserves
Within my report on the work of Jayak so maybe
Trying to work out whether it would be in one of the independent
appendices
Is it you found it in the minutes of you
Just seemed quite an extensive we would receive business updates from the police's
officer on a quarterly basis. And she may well have given a narrative update on the
situation regarding reserves, which we would have taken on board and taken assurance from
the more details that she said at the time. So I'd have to look back at that.
And when did the minutes of, say, the May, was there a meeting in May?
and the minutes or so the meeting in May 25 yeah the minutes of those were
approved at the meeting in July 25 which was last week so those of there will go
Mike Ford - 1:20:06
through an approval process so no Holland yes they should be published
fairly shortly because they were approved our meeting in July and they
meeting for minutes were approved at our July meeting so now that meeting is
approved and they should be published shortly.
Thank you.
Councillor Galbally.
Thank you.
It's following up on the areas of gaps that we mentioned earlier by the chair.
Cllr Stewart Golton - 1:20:31
And I note that in the value for money section 5 on page 150, there is a gap around reporting
from the police and crime team.
I just wondered if that was something which was going to come here as opposed to the joint
audit committee in terms of reporting because I am aware there are some areas of policing
that the Mayor uses her gain share funding to add value to that which is provided by
the police themselves.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:21:16
the work that comes through you it is part of that piece so it is covered through that
in terms of value for money. So there is yes it is part of our overall opinion.
Thank you. Any other questions on that? No? Thank you. So if you can recall that the committee
has noted the reports and thank you for your contribution on that.

12 Risk Management

Agenda item 12 is risk management and this is where we have got the exempt appendix number
I think a lot of work has been undertaken over the last few years to ensure the authority
has got a really robust and cohesive risk management system that can support effective
management and governance and I think what we're seeing today is the outcome of all of
that work so I'd like to thank officers for that because I appreciate the effort that's
gone into it.
The committee today is being asked to approve eight matters, so we've got appendix 1, 2,
3, 4, 5, 8 and 9 and also the cover paper at 1 .3 details a suite of documents that it
is being proposed are brought to G &A at each meeting. So there's quite a lot to go through
with this particular agenda item.
Just to note that we are planning a workshop
on risk management, so we will get more chance
to talk about this in detail.
So even if the committee approves the framework
and everything today, there will be opportunity
to feed in, and I know the effectiveness
of the system will remain under review.
It's not set in stone, it will be something
that evolves as the organisation grows and develops,
So there will be plenty of chance for this committee
to feed into how they feel it's working
and any changes that are made.
So, Sir Tinda, are you talking to this one?
So, overarchingly, yes, and with the help of Natalie as well.
So just to flag, I'm grateful for your observations
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:23:38
in terms of those more detailed matters coming back
to the committee for further discussion and feedback.
just to flag with committee members regarding the framework, there's been, I think it's
fair to say if I put it this way, there's going to be more digestible points that will
need to be shared in terms of the RMS rollout when it comes to the training as part of the
embedding phase, and that will include as part of the rollout induction guides, risk
management training workshops as you've touched on commencing later in the year in autumn.
We've got learning and development colleagues within HR to support that as well. There's
a dedicated risk hub, learning hub that's been created by team colleagues and part of
that will be role profile biassed relative to colleagues across the organisation and
there has been a directors risk forum that's been set up in the form of a teams channel
and the same applies in terms of that teams channel for heads of service as well.
Just to bring those matters to your attention, I don't know if there's anything that Natalie
wants to add that isn't already referred to in the appendix that comes before this committee.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So there is a lot of information in here.
So if we're being asked to approve all those different appendix, if we take one at a time
and take questions on them.
So the first one is the risk management strategy which is appendix one.
So questions on that.
Yes, we've got David.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I thought that generally the materials are very good, very tight and really well put
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:25:28
together and very practical.
So compliments on that.
Just one quick question on the digitisation of this process.
It's a little bit confusing on some of the timelines about when the digitisation is planned
to happen, whether that's during the development phase, after the development phase, during
maturity phase.
I'd just maybe caution and suggest that the digitisation happens later in the process
once something is more mature rather than in the development phase as well.
Thank you.
I'm happy to pick that up.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:26:01
The original ambition was for the digitalisation to occur sooner than it will be.
It's being pushed back slightly to take into account the interdependencies between the
internal roll -outs regarding systems and processes and colleagues' understanding.
So it's that appropriate placement which is going to be later than indicated to the committee.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:26:27
Any other questions on the risk management strategy?
Are members happy to approve the strategy?
Thank you.
So we can note that one has been approved.
Appendix 2 is risk management policy.
Any questions or queries on that from members or anything that Mr Tinde, Natalie wants to
say?
Okay, so could I ask if members approve the risk management policy?
Yes, that's approved.
Appendix 3 is the risk placement framework.
So anything you want to add on that, Natalie, Mr Tinde?
No?
Okay, any questions?
Yes, David?
Just one quick one.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:27:21
Bottom of page 203, where we're talking about risk appetite levels,
notice that in the table above it's got where our risk appetite
stances for governance and security issues is cautious
and then for technology is eager.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:27:38
I'm happy for us to be eager with technology,
but there's a footnote on that page that says,
however, in relation to technology where it relates to security issues,
that should be cautious.
I just note further down where we talked about cyber security, it's been put in the wrong
risk category.
I think it's been talked about as technology and therefore being rated as eager.
Whereas I think I would certainly be uncomfortable with cyber security being rated as eager as
opposed to cautious where I think it should be.
Just to clarify, that's where it should be and we can make that amendment.
.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:28:35
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:28:36
I'm happy to take that way and make that amendment if the committee is content with that.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:28:39
Thank you.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:28:52
And perhaps in similar vein on 204, fatality is an open or high risk appetite to fatalities,
which again seems somewhat odd.
So whether that's a little bit of a gremlin in there.
I think yes, it's going to be taken away.
No, thank you for spotting the gremlin.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:29:23
Thanks, Jack. If we are actually on appendix 4 now, I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with the appendix.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 1:29:26
If we can do that one first then.
Right, members are you happy to approve the risk placement framework which is appendix 3?
Yes, thank you. Right, so the risk appetite statement is appendix 4 and I think some of the questions come out of that.
Councillor Pollard, did you have something on that one?
on the appendix floor.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 1:29:52
The risk appetite on property is described
as eager, which vaguely worries me in terms of dramas
that various local authorities have had in respect
to property and the sometimes less than robust assessment
risk on property development, et cetera.
I was just wondering just a little bit of narrative there on why we've adopted an eager
stance towards property risks, embracing opportunities to innovate, and what sort of innovation are
we actually looking at there?
Thank you.
Ben's going to answer that one.
Cautiously.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:30:46
So we did have debate about this as directors.
The approach is based on being open to looking at different ways to invest in regeneration
projects.
Traditionally, the combined authority hasn't done that very much or has taken a very risk -averse
approach, but in the context where the combined authority is the main funder, because more
government money is being channelled through the combined authority that previously would
have gone through other routes, we need to have a risk appetite that is reflected, that
reflects those of our partners as well as ourselves.
And in the context of projects like Bradford City Village, where you're effectively looking
to restart an urban economy, you need to have an open approach.
Just having an open approach to -in terms of risk -affect, that doesn't mean that you'll
automatically take risky decisions.
It just means you're being prepared to look at the different range of finance and funding
opportunities that there are.
So in particular, that's looking at different ways of funding things, use of private sector,
capital, use of equity, use of those kinds of financial
things that we haven't previously done.
That's where it's coming from.
Thank you.
Yes.
Yeah, just a question on the risk scores, I guess,
or heat map.
Cllr James Homewood - 1:32:19
So are those risk scores sort of like where we've got
a very high one, say on security, is that an inherent score
and do we have a risk assessment on presumably we've taken steps to reduce that risk and
just trying to understand where that, sorry if I'm looking at the wrong papers.
In terms of the scoring, we will come back to some of that in the exempt item but in
terms of the scoring of it.
It's much generic to understand if that's just the inherent risk because obviously there's
the risk of security or the legal challenge on any item, but then do we score it both
Cllr James Homewood - 1:33:02
inherently on the inherent risk of security as well as after we have taken controls to
reduce that level of risk to the organisation?
the decision.
Lastly, the opinion, or sorry, not the opinion,
Natalie Rotherham - 1:33:21
the view is not to be looking at what the risk measurement
would be after controls.
It is following through in terms of the actions
that have been, the risk that's been identified,
the measures that have been applied to understand that risk
and how that can be ameliorated by any further controls
to then manage that risk within limitations
that would ensure that the decision could be made,
but people were confident that they had taken
a robust view of what the implications to that risk were
and measured how they could control that
through the duration of the project
for which that was a risk attached to it.
I suppose what I'm getting at is, is that the right, I mean maybe it's one of the previous
Cllr James Homewood - 1:34:16
stuff on the actual policy but to me you would need to, we need to understand, so you've
got a risk on a particular item which is inherent risk because it might be a legislative compliance
requirement for example which if we're in breach of is significant to the
authority but we will have taken steps to reduce that risk and I think it's
important that we understand what the level of residual risk there is to the
organisation because that is dependent on what actions and controls we put in
place so I'm just getting at is that if we see something on here
that's very high or whatever what I'm assuming is that we've taken steps to
mean that whilst that inherently is high it shouldn't happen because we've got
and we need somewhere to be able to see both of those things, if that makes sense.
So in the risk register it would include the measures that were being put in place to absolutely
Natalie Rotherham - 1:35:07
do what you're talking about. And there is regular reviews of risks to ensure that they
are tracking as planned and if they are deviating from that what additional controls are being
put in place to bring it back within the acceptable tolerance
that you would expect for that risk.
OK, thanks.
David.
So just to that point, I thought one of the strengths
of the material here is actually it
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:35:36
seems to focus more on the risks after you put in place
what we've currently put in place,
and assessing where that is rather than going
through the usual sort of two -step process of what
would it be if we did nothing, and then what is it now.
So I think that's one of the strengths of this material
I think it does focus on things we ought to be focusing on, which is where is it after we put in place those
Mitigations is that still enough is then the question. So I mean I was quite comfortable that it
Had the right balance and they're focused on the right things
Yes
Can I just add Thank You chair to your point to councillor?
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:36:15
Homeward those that assessment is then reviewed as well regularly to see whether or not it's still
remains relevant if that helps.
Thank you. Any other questions on the risk appetite statement? No? So do members
approve the statement as it stands? Yes. Thank you. Okay, Appendix 5, that was a
evaluation effectiveness framework. Councillor De Kloet.
I'm sorry but could I ask that we just have a short break?
We can, yes that's okay.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:36:59
Yeah, yeah.
Everyone's in agreement, we'll, you can just pause recording for five minutes.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:37:07
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:37:12
Thank you.

12 Risk Management

So we're now on to Appendix 5, the Control Evaluation Effectiveness Framework.
Anything that officers want to add about that?
Any questions?
Questions from Rob, thank you.
Thanks, Chad.
I think just emphasises the importance of having this workshop where I think we can
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:37:53
sort of see and feel how all these different elements of the risk management process are
implemented, integrated, how they work, how they flow through the organisation, because
it's great as David said it looks fantastic on paper, there's no substitute for seeing
it and feeling it and getting some feedback from directors who are key risk owners to
see how it is actually practically working.
Yeah, I think the workshop's key really, isn't it?
But getting the content of the workshop right will also be key, so I don't know what the
proposals are to develop what that might look like.
Thank you, Joanna.
I agree with that point completely, and I think there's a co -collaboration piece on
this in terms of committee members as well.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:38:38
So the broad content will be shared with members, and I would very much value members having
their views in terms of any areas that they would like to include as well we
can do that outside of this committee thank you thank you
council Pollard thank you cheque yeah just as an alternate on this committee
obviously have a full grasp of what's gone before but just just an idea under
Cllr Mike Pollard - 1:39:03
on page 211 the assess control maturity level I mean of the effectiveness levels
Can I be reasonably assured that we don't have any sort of operations of WICA which
would fall, certainly fall within score one as ad hoc and I would hope that very, very
few would have a score of two defined as initial, i .e. in place but informal, inconsistently
applied or not well documented.
Thank you.
Did you want to come back on that or not, Sally?
Sorry, I missed the last bit.
Did you want to repeat?
Yeah, it was just that these control maturity levels.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 1:39:50
I would hope that we don't have any sort of functions of WICA
which fall with a score level of one, i .e. ad hoc.
In other words, we haven't a clue what's going on really,
and risk management is completely uncoordinated.
And very few which would be defined as initial,
i .e. controls in place, but informal, which always seems a bit hazardous.
That might be something that's worth tracking through the dashboard, actually. I can't recall if it's on there, but there.
I think it's a good question, and I would certainly hope that we're talking three and above.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:40:30
I think the interesting thing is you can see some issues coming over the horizon.
For example, in the devolution bill framework around the combined authorities competence
area over things such as health and safety, separate categories.
And you think, actually, we don't have any of those controls in place for how that would
work.
So actually, as we work with government to understand what those accountability are like,
making sure that the control processes are being built in, alongside the standard ones
that the government authority already has, is pretty critical.
So this is helpful in terms of thinking that could well be in the ad hoc space if we don't
get this right.
Thank you.
Any other questions on Appendix 5?
No.
So can I ask if members approve that?
Yes, thank you.
That's approved.
Appendix 8 is the risk management training framework.
So again, we're asked to approve that.
Anything you want to add, Schindler?
No?
No, beyond, as I mentioned earlier.
Thank you.
Questions from members?
No.
Do we approve then the framework that's detailed in Appendix 8?
Yes.
Thank you.
Appendix 9 is a risk management procedure suite.
So any comments, questions on that?
No.
Okay.
Thank you.
So can we, does the committee approve that?
Yep.
So that one's approved as well.
Thank you.
So in more general terms, the committee's also being asked to approve the rollouts and
the embedding of the new risk management framework from autumn 2025.
So I'm assuming, well I shouldn't assume, I'm asking if the committee approved that
they move ahead in rolling all of this out.
Yeah, thank you, so that's approved too.
And the other thing before we move on to the risk register is that the cover paper I mentioned
earlier at 1 .3 details the documents are being proposed to bring to each of these committee
meetings. Has anybody got any comments, reflections on that or any content that we run with that
and then see how it goes and adapt as necessary? Rob.
Thanks, Chair. I think that's probably something for the workshop as well, just seeing how
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:43:12
the risk management process can be how we can access it and what reports we actually
need rather than committing ourselves to receiving something at the moment, just to look at that
as part of that workshop.
There will be a timing thing then, won't there, because we don't have to be left at the next
committee without a suite of documents. I don't know, have you any idea about proposed
timeline?
Okay, and then there will be the other thing that whether there's time to change things
before then as well.
So in the interim, I think we need to agree.
So is everybody content?
And we agree that is a starting point and then we can adjust as we go.
Lovely, thank you.
If we can move on to the risk register and take any questions on the risk register except
for anything that's going to appear in appendix 7.
David.
Not really a question, just a comment.
I think the ropes of the risk on a page work very well and the format, once it's fully
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:44:26
populated and once it's fully up and running will be really good.
Thank you. Did you want to talk through any of the research in terms of...
No, just to say that for committee members this has arisen out of office comments provided
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:44:45
previously in relation to the Excel spreadsheet that was used. This is very much a work in
progress, subject to and from my perspective needing to have committee members' comments
and there will be further versions of this as well so just to emphasise to
members this is not the final version. Thank you. Okay any other questions on
the risk register before we move to the closed session? Yes Councillor Dacre.
Sorry so it might say somewhere and I've lost it but so when will the final
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:45:22
version come to us and there never will be a final version in some ways will there because it will always have to be under review.
Just to be clear in terms final version in terms of not the the risks that are reported but the format so this is but the this is the first time that this is being reported in this way so would welcome committee members comments in terms of the formatting any areas you think that it's missing or could be highlighted because I've already had
comments from senior colleagues, for example, in terms of the section in the top right hand
of that page.
I was just going to say apologies for my earlier question because I think this is what I was
looking for and I was probably confused on which items I'm looking for. I think this
Cllr James Homewood - 1:46:12
is useful because what I was wanting to see is what our current risk rating is, what we're
about it, what our target is and that's what I was kind of talking about earlier
without looking at the right item. So yeah this is kind of what I think is a
useful way of presenting it definitely. Thank you.
Any other questions on that? Yes, Councillor Pollard.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 1:46:38
Just a little bit of comment really on the capability and capacity constraints to
capital programme delivery.
That's a current risk rating of very high.
There's a reasonable bit of narrative there.
But at the moment, lots and lots of capital programmes
are struggling with capacity and capability.
And do we think that that has a significant knock -on effect,
too?
Mass transport type stuff as well, really.
because a very high risk suggests to me that kind of things don't happen in a timely manner,
usually.
Thank you. Who wants to take that?
Ben?
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:47:30
Thank you. It's a good question. So I think specialist resourcing is always a challenge.
And at the moment, the key mitigation is that we're using specialist companies to provide
that expertise.
That's particularly the case for mass transit, which this risk isn't explicitly about, but
it isn't.
You've touched it on it in your question.
And the plan there is over time, as you would expect, where we see an ongoing need for a
degree of specialism to swap out the consultancy with internal recruitment -sorry, external
recruitment.
I think on the capital programme as a whole, the -I think we should take that away, Cindy,
because I don't see that risk in quite the same -in quite the same way, in the sense that
the -we have -there are resourcing challenges within the sector, whether they are specific
to the combined authority, given that two thirds of these projects have been delivered
by other partners, I need to cheque.
So can you come back to us?
We'll come back with a little bit.
Any other questions?
Councillor Daycare.
Yes, thank you.
Just on the tender services and bus enhancements being withdrawn without notice, any assurance
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:48:51
on control number six to be confirmed.
I just wondered.
Have you got the page number you're looking at Councillor Zafi?
No, page number on it.
227.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:49:15
It doesn't have a, oh there it is, I can't read it.
I think it's 227.
221.
Thanks.
I think it's 227.
Yeah.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:49:34
In my copy, 227 is Incident Management Business Recovery.
It's 221.
I'm sorry, it's not the one you were looking at.
No, it's the... I don't know whether the numbers are different, but it's...
Yes
Yeah, the risk that commercial tended services and bus enhancement will be withdrawn with little notice
So I think Councillor De Kloet is saying is it is page 221 on the operator bus services
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:50:19
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:50:21
risk. There's an existing control which is agreed
allocation of 2 .5 million in bus service improvement plan or BSIP funding
phase 4 for protection of services and the assurance on that control is to be
confirmed is that is that your question
great I need to come back to you because I'm not entirely sure of these I thought
that had been confirmed through the spending review but it might be subject
to further process point by the Department of Transport so we'll drop your note back on that as well.
You just appreciate that that's one that's dear to our heart.
Very high and increasing.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 1:51:00
Any other questions on the corporate risk register?
I've got one observation. I would personally still welcome a helicopter view,
something that cuts across the silos, so I know what's happening as an organisation
as opposed to individual elements of it, but we could touch on that maybe at the workshop.
Just to say completely agreed and I have in mind that overarching cover report with these
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:51:31
as appendices if that helps you, Chair. Thank you. So if there's no other queries
on that, if we move to closed session for Appendix 7.

12 Risk Management

So, agenda item 13, it's compliance and monitoring dashboard report.
The new members of the committee, this is a standard agenda item and it was requested

13 Compliance & Monitoring Dashboard Report

by the committee to provide us with a concise picture of the effectiveness of the internal
controls and regulatory environment.
What we're looking at here is a current dashboard and you will see that in the next gender item
there's the proposed changes to that dashboard.
So again, as with a lot of things that this committee looks like, it's something that's
under continual review and revision based on how it works.
There are some technical terms in this report, so if any of the members are unsure on anything,
please do just ask.
And, Stinda, anything you want to draw attention to on that, I'm not sure.
No? No? Okay.
Any questions on the dashboard and any of the detail within it?
Rob?
the
paragraph three point six point seven
now near misses
obviously
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:53:11
driver
is using their mobile carriage way
that's obviously a prosecuting
prosecutable offence
we find the relevant operator but do we know what the operator does with that
driver
I think we probably want assurance that they no longer drive a public service vehicle if
that's what they've been found to be doing.
I don't know who's coming back on that one.
I raise it just as a point that that follow up of seeing the implications of if we found
something and then how does it get seen through from a CA point of view so that we get assurance
that it's been properly done. So that's the question there then is how are these
follow through so this committee can gain assurance that appropriate action
has been taken. Thank you chair I can pick that up please if I can come back
to the committee in terms of what is essentially being requested is
application of our other policies and procedures for example HR matters.
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:54:22
It's just really a little query on budgeting process really.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 1:54:36
Page 277 under expenditure, item section 3 .16.
Staff costs are favourable to the budgeted position by 5 .8 million pounds primarily due
to timing relating to recruitment, ongoing restructures and turnover.
I'm also a member of the West Yorkshire Fire Authority and it is a perennial thing on monitoring
reports for expenditure that recruitment lag always, repeat always, results in an underspend
which suggests that the assumption as to the timing of recruitment lag is invariably very
much on the safe side I can only assume that the same thing applies with with
WICA is that regularly looked at in terms of the realistic budgeting in
terms of recruitment process I guess that's one for Kate is it?
I think Kate's taking this one yeah. Thank you chair. Yes we do it is one of the assumptions that we look at every year we do
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:55:44
currently have built in an assumption around vacancy factor which we look at
every year just to look at trends. Obviously it is a little bit, it moves up
and down so there can be various factors involved in that but it is one that we
look at in terms of that. But historically I would say everywhere that I've ever worked has
slightly undercooked, you're absolutely right, that piece there is always and
You know in the scope of the spend that we have on staff is our biggest expenditure base
So actually the variances can be quite significant quite a small percentage
Thank you Rob, thanks chair, it's just the the use of the term favourable
Yes, it's an underspend on pay
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:56:34
But I'm not sure it's favourable because we intended to have a full establishment of staff and we've not done that
So actually it's an adverse
operational implication it might work well for budget monitoring and underspending but from an operational point of view is not favourable as far as I
regard
You want to come back on that one there I
Think I think that I mean I agree
But I agree. I
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:57:01
Think it's I think it's the whole census though, isn't it favourable to the budgeted position? I think is that is that?
from an accountants perspective
But the sense of duty point is well made.
Yeah, Councillor Goulton.
Can I ask for clarification as to where you get your data about complaints, casework and correspondence?
Cllr Stewart Golton - 1:57:22
And are you assured that it covers all of the inquiries that come to the combined authorities?
I think as an elected member, one of the frustrations that we have is that there isn't, as far as I can see,
a formal customer engagement operation.
So, forgive me, this is an assumption on my part.
So, I would imagine that our corporate complaints procedure will deal with those to include
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:57:52
Rob Forrest's team as well.
And I don't know Natalie
Natalie or Chris you can help in terms of any further detail on that, please. Yes, so
Thank you, counsel. The
Chris Thompson - 1:58:11
Information comes directly from the CRM system, which currently manages case where complaints and correspondence
so everything that goes into the team which
Manages that level of correspondence
Is logged within that system and those figures represent that
So counsellor Gordon I've discussed this issue in the past what I think I think the issues
that we're dealing with here is
Questions that come into the combined not necessarily complaints but casework that comes
into the combined authority
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:58:41
Via officers or directors don't do the question really do they always find their way into
the casework system?
And I think is something that we've asked a question about making sure that that gets
I think what Councillor CASSIDY has asked was assurance that it does, and we need to
just cheque that. That is a very good point because it does
raise the question of quality of data, doesn't it?
So if we're looking at this data, we need assurance that the data is accurate and timely,
et cetera. So, yeah, I think that's probably another
the challenge to think about, isn't it, how we get assurance on that. And we're not looking
at stuff that's way out of date or doesn't represent a true picture. Okay, thank you
for that. I've got a couple of queries, if I may. One, it is around the complaints. There's
continued increase in the number of complaints. I was just wondering if there's any work being
undertaken to understand the common themes, if there are any. And the other one was the
in the number of in quorum meetings still seems to be high, which is a concern in terms
of governance. So I was just wondering again what might be being done about that.
Can I come back on in quorum meetings? So it's really an observation that one of the
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:00:08
things that the government has recently announced is looking again at having local government
meetings held online. At the moment we're not allowed to do that. We think that directly
impacts on quality matters, particularly for the combined authority, given the distances
that we draw members from. So I think if the government does institute that, that will
be a major plus in terms of getting better quality.
And just to give reassurance that the Committee Services Section are working extremely hard
Natalie Rotherham - 2:00:45
in establishing whether a committee is quarantined by checking responses to meeting invites to
committee meetings and ensuring that if people are unable to attend that the substitute is
lined up to attend the meeting, hence the quaritacy rates have improved dramatically
as a consequence. Thank you.
Any further questions? Yes, Councillor?
Cllr James Homewood - 2:01:15
Just on the core of the meeting I was just going to say, and I don't know how, not a lot of experience here, but I did note that when there was a lot of discussion about meeting dates and stuff, there did seem to be a lack of looking across, from a Council's perspective, looking across the different authorities, where there was potentially things like full Council meetings at authorities, which in clashes, I don't know if they can be more done on that, because I think obviously it's not possible to make everything fit.
I think if you have a council meeting you can't have a combined authority meeting that
day that you would expect council to come to.
That's a fair point.
I think the schedule of meetings when dealing with constituent authorities is a bit of a
nightmare if I'm being frank about it.
Natalie Rotherham - 2:01:54
We are looking at ways that we can deliver a timetable which works for the combined authority
and for the constituent authorities that are sending members to the committee because what
we would like is that members are able to attend the meetings well prepared and able
to participate in those meetings fully and if they're subbing at short notice, which
sometimes does happen in relation to your point, it does mean that members are kind
of having to think on the hoof and we would prefer that that wasn't the case. So just
to give reassurance that we are checking if there are other ways that we can arrange the
schedule that is better accommodating.
Thank you.
Just to build on that, to save Natalie and Sarah's blushes, they do do a lot of work
to try and avoid council meetings.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:02:42
And I think that is resulting in the clashes that we're now seeing are more about other
commitments that councillors have rather than the formal meetings.
So it's progress, but there's still work to be done, as Natalie says.
but ultimately what we need to ensure is that the combined authorities meeting dates are
sufficiently stable that Councillors can also take those into account when making their
diaries as well. There's a two -way street here. I'm just conscious,
Debbie, that we didn't answer your question about themes in complaints and casework. So
we do have, I'm just thinking, when we see that internally, it is themed at least by
subject area so we could certainly provide provide that we know we know
what whether what the majority of case what relates to not necessarily what the
topic is within that but at a high level we can provide that if that's helpful I
think I think it goes back to council today because earlier point we don't
want to get too into the detail but we need assurance I suppose that these
things aren't being looked at yeah thank you any other questions on this
dashboard. No, thank you. So we'll move on to agenda item 14, which is a proposal for
the revised monitoring dashboard. Members have been commenting on the effectiveness

14 New Compliance Dashboard

of the original dashboard quite a few times, so this is a second iteration of it for comments.
So has anybody got any comments about this? David?
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 2:04:25
I guess I'm less interested in the mix of current risk ratings and more interested in
what's out of appetite. So I think that's maybe what the focus should be there in terms
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 2:04:34
of the reporting. And then secondly, I think last time around I asked a question about
an ICO incident that was reported. So I had a data security incident that reported the
and then in the meantime I got the information back on what that was.
I think if we're going to report the incidents you need to have where there's an incident report of the ICO,
just a brief explanation of what it is and what's been learned from it.
Otherwise, I'll just raise the question.
Chris, did you want to add to that?
Yeah, that's something that we will include because what we're aiming to achieve with this new iteration of the dashboard
Chris Thompson - 2:05:10
that we provide both qualitative and quantitative information for you to be able to really get
in depth into that information as opposed to sort of seeing the numbers if you like.
Thank you. Any other questions on this? And then there's an agreement that this is introduced
in autumn and again we see how it goes. Natalie?
Just briefly to say that what we would propose undertaking is that there would be a workshop
Natalie Rotherham - 2:05:45
prior to the first meeting of the committee to enable the members of the committee to
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 2:05:51
have a run through the dashboard and be able to utilise the additional features that it's
Natalie Rotherham - 2:05:53
got rather than you having to do it realtime in committee.
So that would be the what we would also like to get a sense of whether that would be agreeable
that we organised a short demo where Chris could walk people through what the new dashboard
contained and how it was going to be supported by the narrative report but also the ability
to investigate certain elements of it to get that additional level of detail, not the granularity
because I'm picking up the message that you really want to see, the kind of by exception,
what are the trends, those kinds of propositions to enable the committee to focus in on what
is really the necessary activity.
Thank you. I support that introduction to it. Other committee members welcome that too.
So if you say yes to that. Rob, did you have a question?
Yeah, thanks, Chair. Just one thing to perhaps think about is one thing about producing stats.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:06:52
It's the so what. What are the implications of poor compliance? What's at risk? What have
have risks increased because of this compliance
and some narrative, not for every single line obviously,
but the ones that pose the most significance
because of poor compliance.
I know it's hard to draw out the implications
of that from the dashboard.
It's all a bit sort of data driven
rather than the so what, if that could be thought about.
So maybe the answer to that is just a covering note
pulling anything out of significance.
I don't think it has to be too technical, does it?
It's just, yeah, yeah.
So maybe if you could take us away
and just give us a bit of thought.
Thank you.
Okay, so we're in agreement that we try
and introduce this in autumn,
and we'll have the workshop beforehand
to introduce us to how it's going to work
so that we can challenge effectively at that next meeting.
Is that okay with everybody?
Yes, that's fine. Thank you very much
Okay, a gender item 15. That's a draught statement of accounts

15 Draft Statement of Accounts 2024-25 & Annual Governance Statement

Kate are you leading us through this one?
Thank you chair and so you have the draught statement of council 24 25
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 2:08:13
Presented to you they are draught as the report says because they are subject to audit and they are currently out at public inspection
as well
for those. So the statement of accounts themselves comprise of the primary
statements and notes, also the annual governance statement which just to note
was approved by the Combined Authority Board yesterday for that. These will come
back to you early in 2026 as a final set accompanied by the external auditor
opinion as we've just discussed in there and the accounts will remain open until
that point for assessment of post balance sheet events.
Just to note, the accounts were not published by the 30th of June deadline in there.
We did duly issue a delay statement and that was in conversation with Ms Arz and with Alistair
around that.
That was due to issues in the movement in reserve statement for there.
You will see within the accounts there is a statement of responsibilities which I am
required to sign to certify that these accounts give a true and fair view, I cannot let those
accounts go out and sign that statement until I am assured of that and those issues within
that statement didn't allow me to issue that at the 30th of June deadline. We have since
reconciled all of those in there and issued the accounts as I say so they are now out
there. In terms of torture on some of the issues and some of you who have been on committee
will be aware of the WICA kind of journey around accounts in previous
years so while we are extremely disappointed that we kind of missed that
deadline actually this is a significant improvement from where we have been in
previous years within there. We are continuing to review the process we are
talking with Bron around a piece of advisory work actually to help us in
there and looking at further enhancement. The only other thing I'd ask to know is
just that the accounts you will see two sets of figures in there there is the
single entity WICA, which is effectively everything that happens in this building piece in there.
And then there is the WICA group, which effectively consolidates the police numbers in there and
adds those together to create the group accounts as they shall be within there, which includes
both the police and the National Police Service as well. So West Yorkshire Police host those.
So because of that, we also contain the assets for that service of helicopters, etc.
So I think the committee took quite a deep dive, didn't we, into why the accounts were
late and received assurances around changes to process which should avoid that happening
again.
And so we covered that over the last couple of meetings, so I think we got to a point
where we were comfortable that next year should be on time.
So yeah, any questions on that? Council Pollard.
Thank you, Chair. Again, I must apologise for being merely an alternate on this, so I'm not entirely clear as to the who does what bit.
Cllr Mike Pollard - 2:11:19
But in terms of the police fund, it may not be a question that can be answered here, on page 11,
I know that the the net cost of police services in terms of expenditure
Was an underspend in excess of 10 million pounds and there is mentioned on page 306
Net out to a position that's been contributed mainly from savings arising from staff vacancies
So is it the case that the recruitment drive much advertised?
is
Stalling a bit
I could get that for you in terms of and just for full transparency I took post
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 2:12:02
on the 19th of May so my historical knowledge of 24 25 is somewhat perhaps
lacking in there in search of that so we could certainly get that information for
you from the police obviously those are the police's numbers in there and that
yeah that information. Thank you so if we just come back to on that and we'll answer
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:12:34
I think it was said that the AGS has been agreed at full authority but this committee
has got within its terms of reference approval of the statement of accounts.
I perhaps thought that we would have the opportunity to comment on the draught of the agreement.
the proposed final one before it went to full authority because as I say we might have a
view on the accuracy of the AGS and with that in mind on page 328 of the pack where it identifies
significant governance issues I don't recognise some of those as having come through the governance
an audit committee. So if we'd had a problem about White Rose, and I was on the train past
it this morning, if that is a governance issue, what were those governance issues and should
we not have been cited on those given that we are a governance and audit committee and
that might flow to other aspects of what is deemed significant governance issues, hence
why I make the point of us seeing the draught and having the opportunity to sort of comment
on it and correlate between things we've seen and what officers have deemed as significant
governance issues.
Thank you. Who wants to take that one?
So Kate will back me up on this as well. So it's a really good point, thank you. But just
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:14:12
Just to reassure this committee, absolutely your terms of reference require approval of
the annual governance statement.
What happens during the municipal year is that it travels through to combined authority
in draught form.
It is not in final form yet.
It will come before this committee later on this calendar year to pick up those points
that have been referred to earlier, if that helps members of the committee.
I seem to think we saw it last year, didn't we? I think it is on our schedule of business, isn't it?
That's maybe a timing thing.
We can certainly take that away and I just have a look around the timing.
I think it is a fair point, so Tinder is correct though, that in the same way that the accounts stay open,
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 2:15:00
in theory the annual governance statement so if there was something that came to
light that later before the accounts and the annual yes finally being signed off
that are kind of in relation to 24 25 we would have to make consideration of
rather we'd need to review that in terms of I know the phase around certain items
certainly white rose went to combined authority board and has been through
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 2:15:25
So I guess my question is when there's an issue with the project along the lines of
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:15:43
the White Rose project, is this committee one that would expect to be informed of those
project specific issues? Because I think we're flagging it in a government thing because
it has been an issue over the course of the year and it has been picked up by the combined
authority and by the relevant members and officers.
I suppose what I might try to ask Rob is what's the nature of what you want at this committee
so that we can make sure we provide it.
Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Ben. It was a good example that if it's been regarded as a governance
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:16:22
issue, something in the CA's governance has gone wrong that led to this issue, if that's
the case then clearly with our oversight of the governance of the CA just to understand
what aspect of contract management, whatever it was, that failed, not the detail obviously
and obviously there's a timing issue, but for it to be regarded as a significant governance
issue warranting inclusion in the AGS, it just felt this was the first time we were
hearing about it as a governance committee and it's just our input to understand why
it was a significant governance issue and therefore what bit of governance allowed it
to happen or didn't work properly, what we're doing about it so we get assurance that it's
not going to happen again.
So I think in my mind I quite agree but I think the route I would see that taking is
that you would expect some sort of audit work to be done if it failed and for us to see
that and the outcome of that because that would then show that the governance system
is working because you wouldn't, I mean it may be flagged at one committee but there'd
be an action as a result of it wouldn't there?
Yes.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:17:43
I'm looking at my colleagues because I think what I'm, I don't see the reason that it's
isn't a failure of governance.
That's probably what's going on here.
But I suspect there is a nature of colleagues
to be transparent about the issues that
have been bubbling up.
So it probably would have felt wrong not to mention it.
But equally, I don't think it's actually a governance issue
that's taken this, while it's not entirely.
And I couldn't read in that reading that bit,
I couldn't pick out that it was a significant governance issue,
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:18:14
Which is why you know, why was it there and if it was there why we haven't been made aware of it
Yes council for
Again on page 328 and this is something which may have been discussed in this committee before
Because it relates the second of accounts for 22
Cllr Mike Pollard - 2:18:32
23 24
the
consolidation issue arising in producing group accounts of the combined authority and the West Yorkshire Police
I'm not a trained accountant so I literally don't know what this means in terms of transfers of what between which account and
If you could just give it a little bit of narrative and what the issue was there whether or not it was a material
It was material I believe it was brought through this committee as well in terms of effectively there was a double count
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 2:19:10
of the police expenditure and that was brought through this committee and disclosed.
Clearly we have put in a significant amount of quality assurance processes as part of this year's process in there.
So I am absolutely comfortable that has not happened this year for us.
But it was material but it was an accounting treatment.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:19:40
No actual, there were no real actual impacts on services.
Okay, Councillor Daycare.
Yes, and on that point it was covered in that training that we were given over a week ago
where they explained how it had all come about.
I know.
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 2:19:54
Right, okay.
I mean I'm sure we can come back to you outside this committee if you want a bit more detail
on what it was and how it was resolved. It is minuted though as well from previous meetings.
But the actual point that I'd intended to make was about the asset management approach
and Bradford Interchange and my understanding is that a lot of that has gone through the
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 2:20:23
transport committee but it's a bit like the white rose in that I think it would be helpful
that if it isn't necessary for us to see it, to have seen it at the time, it would be helpful
in those two, in cases like White Rose and Asset Management for there to just be a comment
as to why it's something that hasn't maybe come to us during the year because it's being
dealt with in another way instead of us ending up asking why on earth are we suddenly finding
out about this now. I think it's I think it's a similarities to White Rose.
What I'm again what I'm struggling with with is I don't we the closure of
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:21:07
Bradford interchange was was due to in effect the condition that the building
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:21:13
found itself in. What is it a failure of governance is the question but I think I
and hence watch for all of this committee as a new to this committee is the bit that
I'm struggling with.
But I think what you're saying as committee members is we probably need a mechanism as
things are arising over the course of the year that could have a bearing on GNA's interests
that you're made aware of them so that you know what's going on just in case you think
actually can you explain about what the governance or the risks of the controlled relationships
are here.
Does that, is that?
Well actually I wasn't even saying that, I was just saying that if it did end up coming
into the governance statement like this, just a further sentence explaining why it had never
Cllr Silvia Dacre - 2:21:57
come before would perhaps be enough. But it might be more appropriate to note it at the
time. I think it's a bit of both. I think it needs
noting but we also need assurance that anything that reflects a breakdown in governance is
the government statement and the statement of the account 2324 notes that double counting
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 2:22:29
it doesn't say anything about the accounts being published late the year before nor that
was then a productivity factor and then being unaudited and then a disclaimer opinion on
them. I think that's all governance issues relating to the process that we ought to be
I think a little bit more clear about.
Plus there's not much, there's no commentary in here
about the number and degree of audit points
that are still open.
And therefore in the plan going forward,
I would expect to see something about the commitment
to clearing those audit points in a timely manner
going forward as well.
And so just for complete sort of openness and transparency
about what issues we've had and what we're still
dealing with in terms of audit points,
I'd expect those issues to be raised in that section.
Thank you, so can I just take us away
just reflect on that, naturally. Not to respond to the immediate question, it's just to reassure
the committee that the annual governance statement did come to the main meeting of this committee.
Natalie Rotherham - 2:23:25
We have seen it before, so we did have an opportunity to comment on it then. I don't
know if there is opportunity to change it now or if we just have to go with it and then
and sort of reflect on that for next year.
Yeah, you'll have to take it away and give it some thought.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Okay, so if there's no further questions,
then we will move on to item 16.
We have got 10 minutes left to conclude
the rest of this meeting, Kate.
So if there is anything, I think it's for notes only,
isn't it, the draught regulations at this stage?
They are. They are for noting and they will then go on to, so it is an opportunity for
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 2:24:14
you to comment and then they will go onwards to combined authority board where they will

16 Draft Financial Regulations

be approved because they are part of our constitution effectively so that is what combined authority
has to approve then. Thank you. So any comments on the document?
No.
Okay, thank you.
So if it can be noted that the committee has considered the regulations, that takes us
on to agenda item 17, which is an update to the whistleblowing policy.

17 Updated Whistleblowing Policy

Again, Katie's issue.
No, Bron, okay.
So I'm back again.
So effectively, the whistleblowing policy, it's not just a review and a minor update.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:25:00
We had quite a lot of learning out of experience of dealing with a number of whistleblowing
complaints that led us to do a major revision of the policy.
We did in doing that, we've consulted a lot internally, we've done full DPIA's and, sorry,
data protection impact assessments, quality impact assessments.
We have also taken it out for some external consultation with some organisations that
we use for doing investigations to see whether we are hitting the mark now.
What we have is a policy that is very much in line with PEDA, with the public disclosure
legislation.
It also, hopefully, gives a lot of clarity around what does and does not constitute whistleblowing
and what should go through other policies and procedures in place in the Combined Authority
as appropriate. What we do have though, this has been seen by our performance board and
approved by our performance board subject to some amendments. Given that we have made
a few amendments, one of which was to put in the process map, we are open to comments
from this committee if there is anything you feel it is missing or it would benefit from
having there is an opportunity for us to take back to performance board with those amendments.
So it's not a done deal at this point. I know it says for noting and comment but I would
like to know if there is anything that we could do to enhance this policy further. So
open to any comments or questions. Rob.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:26:40
Thanks chair. The one thing on the section regulatory and compliance in terms of the
you know, reference to the Public Interest Disclosure Act.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:26:46
I've seen in many whistle -bone policies reference
to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act, which
changed the requirements to make sure
that any whistle -bone was in the public interest,
and whether that's a statutory sort of reference that
ought to be included.
The other thing which I think might be worth thinking about
is an FAQs annex.
again that enables staff who need to understand, you know, it just helps them appreciate what
constitutes a proper whistle blowing referral, how it would be dealt with, perhaps a few
scenarios of what is and what isn't. As I say, it just potentially helps staff understand
properly. I just say that because I was a whistle blowing officer where I used to work
so live and breathe this stuff. The other thing I didn't actually notice, and I'm just
skimming through it again, was contact details for how somebody actually made a referral
and assurances that in doing that it was a secure means. I just had a separate bat phone
as it were on my desk for referrals, a separate email, separate number, voicemail, 24 hour
voicemail to enable that breadth and range of referrals but I couldn't actually see anything
in here that said how anybody would contact you.
the others are going to speak.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:29:22
internal audit colleagues should be trusted partners but if somebody is contacting, making
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 2:29:29
use of this scheme and want to talk to you personally, I would have expected it not to
be operated by the internal audit team unless that's just the way you've described it.
It's only you that has access to that.
Thank you.
Any other questions on that?
Okay, thank you.
So if we move on to our final agenda item, which is item 18, and that's the revised officer
code of conduct.
Is that Stinda?

18 Revised Officer Code of Conduct

Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
So not a huge amount to say in addition to the content of the report, but just to highlight
Satinder Sahota, Interim Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 2:30:42
some primary changes or substantive changes that have been made, those include the requirement
and for officers to make annual declarations of any interests they have to the organisation
and the updating is in relation to language and also taking into account best practise.
Thank you.
Any queers on that?
No?
Thank you.
So if we can note that the committee has received that report.
Thank you.
So that brings us to the end of this meeting.
The next meeting is 24th of October.
I'm aware that there are a number of actions and matters

19 Date of Next Meeting

that various officers are going to come back
to the Committee on, so it'd be useful just to make sure
we're really clear at the start of the next meeting
that those have been covered off,
that we've got a record of what they were
and that they've been addressed.
Okay, thank you very much.