Governance and Audit Committee - Wednesday 19 February 2025, 11:15am - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance and Audit Committee
Wednesday, 19th February 2025 at 11:15am 

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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  2. Aamina-Noor Shah Committee Services Officer
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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  3. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  4. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  6. Cllr Rebecca Poulsen Bradford Council
  7. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  8. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  13. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  18. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  19. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  20. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  21. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  22. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  23. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  24. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  25. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  26. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  27. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  28. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  29. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  30. Cllr Rebecca Poulsen Bradford Council
  31. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  32. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  33. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  34. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  35. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  36. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  37. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  38. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  39. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  40. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  41. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  42. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  43. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  44. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Webcast Finished

1 Apologies for Absence

Right, morning everybody and welcome to the Governance and Audit
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:00:18
Committee, 19th of February.
The meeting is now being filmed and recorded.
So, agenda item one, apologies for absence.
Apologies for absence have been received from Councillor Alan Lamb,
Aamina-Noor Shah Committee Services Officer - 0:00:33
Leeds Council, Councillor
Jane Scullion, Coddedale Council and Councillor Denise Jeffrey, Wakefield Council.
Councillor Rebecca Paulson is attending as Councillor Lamb's substitute, Councillor Scott
Paton is attending as Councillor Scullion's substitute and Councillor Matthew Morley is
attending as Councillor Jeffrey's substitute.

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:00:56
Okay, agenda item two declarations of interests anyone got anything they wish to declare

3 Exempt Information - Possible Exclusion of the Press and Public

No, thank you that we noted
Agenda item three is exempt information. We haven't got anything on the agenda today. That's exempt
And and that brings us on to a gender item four which is minutes of the meeting of the governance Nordic Committee

4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 20 January 2025

Which was held on the 20th of January has anybody got any comments or questions arising from those?
No, thank you we can note those been accepted then please

5 Final Statement of Accounts 2023-24

Agenda item five is a substantive item today
and that's to look at the final statement of accounts and this item has been brought back to the committee today and
because we were
We were due to look at them and approve them at the last committee meeting, but just before then and they were presented
Some accounting errors were found and they required further investigations. So that works now being done
I've been brought back to the committee today and
Asking the committee to receive the external auditors opinion, but also to approve the statement of account
So we've got those two matters to look at
By way of background, I think everybody on the compete should have received various supporting
documents.
So you should have received a report from the SARS, the 23 -4 audit opinion and letter
representation and we should have also had all had a note from Damon which included the
final version of the 23 -24 accounts and progress on prior accounting issues.
So can I check that everybody's had all of the documents?
Yes, thank you.
Okay, so David, you're up to introduce the item
and take through.
Thanks, Chair.
So at the last meeting, it was agreed that I would brief
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:55
the Chair of Scrutiny and his health chair, which we did.
At the same time, we were concluding what we believe
the adjustments that are needed,
and they're contained in Appendix 3.
However, we do reserve the right to make any adjustments
further prior adjustments which is standard practice in organizations when
you come across anything that's needed to be adjusted you know as part of the
close down for the following year for 24 -25 so there may be some prior year
adjustments at this point in time some work needs to sort of continue to
conclude what they potentially are we are up against the deadline of the 28th
February. So we wanted to make sure that this committee went ahead. So I just wanted to make sure that people are aware that there might be some prior adjustments and they'll be reported in due course.
And with that, I felt it necessary to adjust my statements, having been not responsible for the statements of accounts produced back in May last year, and having joined the organization in December,
I just wanted to make sure that that was referenced in the statement of accounts
so that there is a clear audit trail and we can actually document the
improvements and the changes that have made and with that I've brought Helen
Malum -Hulong who recently joined the organization and strengthened the team
so if we have any questions that are raised on the changes to the statements
of accounts in Appendix 3, we've got the technical expertise to make sure that those explanations
are in place. As we thought, the main issue was the material issue on the intergroup transfers
in the group accounts and then there's some presentational issues. However, I do believe
that the usable reserves was an omission that we should have included. And I think if we,
you know, the post -mortem continues as we have a set up,
a mazars and an internal close down workshop in March
to make sure that, one is we're on the front foot
with regards to timetabling, to make sure that we've got
adequate quality assurance, internal quality assurance
built into the process, and two is we learn lessons further
by interrogating the previous year's statement of accounts.
And there might be other things that we want to improve on
from a presentation point of view and an explanation point of view.
So I think building more time in, building the resources in,
the post -mortem will continue.
However, we're just about to embark on what the close down process is for 24 -25.
So then we then start to close down the accounts for this year.
And that's where we then obviously opening balances,
we'll be reviewing to make sure that if there is any prior adjustments,
it's needed at that point in time.
But, Chair, the report outlines the changes that have been made and I'll take any questions and the team will take any questions.
I don't think, if Alistair, you want to add anything, I know that you've got your opinion reports as well.
I'm happy to add now or after you take any questions.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:06:15
Shall we take questions on that first and then come back to your opinion reports after?
Sure, that's fine.
Yeah.
Thanks, Chair.
Just one minor thing.
I think there's a date that's been missed
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:06:25
on page 16 of the pack.
There's a 22, 23 that's still in there
that probably ought to be 23, 24.
Service concession arrangements at the top.
The main question was, obviously there's a combination
of external audit, building back assurance,
and obviously the specifics of the CA,
reestablishing capacity and expertise.
and I know you referenced the workshop, just wonder whether there could be something back
to the committee that would sort of give us that action plan, the results of that self -assessment
and judgment from both perspectives from the Mazaars, sorry, the Forest Mazaars and the
CA that obviously we can then track and help build our assurance ready for the whole shenanigans
again in a few months yeah the next meeting is scheduled for the 28th of
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:07:21
April and we can send a note out prior to that and then we could have a
discussion on the day of the committee I think that's a good idea
that Councillor Paulson yeah Thank You chair maybe I can just ask to
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:07:37
some maybe
this has been discussed previously but there's a number of alternate members on
committee today some clarification on process here because I've come to this
Cllr Rebecca Poulsen Bradford Council - 0:07:46
with open eyes new eyes to it and I was quite frankly pretty appalled to see
what's been going on as somebody who sat on the board of Wicar we've had no
knowledge of any of this has come to the board and this is public money and quite
frankly it's really shocking how badly internal audit and getting the account
to the external auditors seems to have gone on for a number of years this
doesn't seem to be a one -off this year.
To not actually get the audit completed now because
of the backstop legislation is dreadful.
I'm not criticizing Bizarz for that,
because if I understand from the report,
the accounts were sent very, very late yet again.
So I think there's a lot to look at of this going forward.
But on the process, we've got this backstop,
which has to be signed off by this committee, I believe, by the end of the month.
What happens if we're not happy to sign off these accounts today, because we don't have a full external order in place?
Will the government sign them off and take the responsibility for
poor accounting here?
Because this is public money, we have a responsibility to residents here, who it's their money that we're spending.
and auditing. So if we refuse to sign them off, what is the process over the
backstop? Will it go back to government to MHC, LG or the Treasury to actually
take responsibility? Is the external audit still continuing? It's not very
clear in the report. Have we just written it off that we're not having it
completed or will it be an ongoing audit that will be delivered late? And
obviously there's an impact then on the cost of the audit.
Where are we up to on the costings of the external audit?
So that's sort of the process stuff.
The specifics in the report I'm sure will come to
as we go along, so maybe you can help me with those.
Yeah.
Oh right, so do you want to come in first and then.
Can I just deal with one point before, sorry.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:09:56
Can I just deal with one point before then comes in.
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:09:58
Councilor Paulson, I just wanted to clarify
one particular thing in what you've said,
which is that the CA's internal audit function has no role in auditing the accounts.
And I know this has been previously said at prior committees where there's been an assertion
that internal audit have missed this, they haven't.
That's a really important point to make for the reputation of the function.
Okay, so there's a, the accounts are signed off within finance and then there's the external
audit process.
There is no role for internal audit in auditing our, in auditing the accounts.
I just want to clarify that.
The bit on, the other thing I just wanted to say is, and Damon will come in on this,
that there has been no loss of public money.
All right.
I'm not, there's an element to which, you know, we have to hold our hands up and say
that mistakes were made here and then are being addressed.
But there has been no loss of public money
to the people of West Yorkshire.
There's a mistake, and a big mistake in the accounts.
We're not gonna hide that.
But we don't have less money than we thought we did.
We haven't misspent money.
It is an accounting mistake,
which Damon is now seeking to address.
There's been no loss of public money
to the people of West Yorkshire.
We haven't got less money than we thought we did.
I just wanted to make those two points
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:11:28
before Damon comes in. Yes thank you so when I make reference to internal
quality assurance that's where you have your chief accountant your technical
accountant produces a draft statement accounts that's where the head of
service then would check those accounts ask those questions do all the due
diligence that's where the finance director would then challenge that head
of service that's internal quality assurance and that's what we're making
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:11:52
ensure that we program in that there's adequate time because it does take time
and it is a to and fro it's and and I feel that last year that wasn't probably
adequately done so that's why we're doing and making sure that that's in
place I think the secondary point and you've well made it is the fact that the
issue was a material issue on the consolidation of group accounts the
The police accounts are correct, the WICA combined authority accounts are correct.
It was in a consolidation piece of work, so there is no loss of public money.
So quite confident that both position statements are fine, it was in the group consolidation.
And in terms of the meeting deadlines, I don't know if Gary you want to respond to that because I wasn't here at the time.
but I think we did miss the deadline by a number of days in publication
and I think in hindsight, and it depends on who was going to be around at that time,
you do everything that you could to meet those deadlines
and that's what we will be doing this year
because it's up to the leadership in the organisation to make sure that the results are in place
that you meet the deadline.
So, unfortunate that the deadline was missed last year.
In terms of the backstop and the audit world,
then that is clearly something Alistair explained at the last meeting but you
may want to elaborate on some of that now. It is unfortunate that we are in the
public sector in all organisations facing a number of years where
assurance levels for our external audiences are not in place, it's not
unique to this combined authority however I think Alistair it's probably
your domain that you would want to respond. So, Katja?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:13:41
Alistair do you want to come in on that and then we've got a question from Councillor Morley.
Yeah, I will I'll pick up a number of points relating to those
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 0:13:47
questions so in terms of the external audit, external audit is not continuing and
my reports have been
clear to the combined authority that there's been insufficient time to complete the external audit of the combined authorities
accounts and as a result in line with the government's backstop arrangements
I'll be issuing a disclaimer opinion on the combined authorities accounts and a disclaimer
opinion provides no assurance on those accounts.
My audit opinion makes that clear and my completion report likewise makes that clear.
So there is no continuing audit work on the 2324 financial statements.
The backstop arrangements that the government have put in place require the combined authority
to publish its audited financial statements by the 28th of February. That puts a deadline
on me to issue the audit opinion, the disclaimer opinion on those financial statements in sufficient
time to enable the combined authority to publish those audited accounts on its website by the
28th of February. Those are the key dates and the key requirements. Your responsibility
As the governance and Audit Committee as those charged with governance for the combined authorities
Financial statements is to receive consider and approve those financial statements
Which enables Damon as your section 1 5 1 officer no section 73 officer apologies
Your section 73 officer as the responsible financial officer is able then to sign his statement of responsibilities
and at that point you have a set of accounts.
If that doesn't happen, if you don't approve those accounts,
Damon is not able to sign his statement of responsibilities
because you have not adopted your accounts
as the combined authorities accounts.
If you don't do that, I can't issue an opinion on them
because they do not exist as your document.
So the consequence of that, if that was to be the actions
and where would they end up.
I can't issue my opinion by the 28th of February.
You can't publish audited accounts by the 28th of February.
So the combined authority would then be in breach
of the regulations that set up through the backstop
arrangements to publish those audited accounts.
I can't comment on what the consequence of that would be
because that's very much in CLG's remit
as the department responsible for this.
But that is the inevitable conclusion from you not approving the set of accounts that are before you.
I would make it clear as well, your Section 73 officer as your responsible financial officer is stating to you with one caveat that he's added to his statement of responsibilities that he believes these accounts are a true and fair record.
You as governance, governance committee should take Damon's views on board in your consideration of those accounts that your financial officer is signing a statement to say they are a true and fair record.
One other point I'll pick up that you asked about was the cost of the external audit which is a good question.
The external audit is, I am appointed by public sector audit appointments, who are the body who are charged with appointing auditors to all local authorities.
They determine the audit fees for each year. I don't, it's not a matter of my consideration, it's their audit fees.
They have published, I think it was last week,
they made a public statement around resolving the issue
of what is the cost of delivering disclaimed audits,
which are not the normal cycle of audits.
So there is a fee that's been published
to deliver an audit of your accounts.
I'm not delivering an audit of your accounts
for the forementioned reasons,
so the PSA are considering still what the impact of that is
on those stated fees.
So it is a to be determined and it's very much in PSA is remit to
Conclude those discussions and then engage with all authorities as to what the impact of that is
Does that help answer all those various points?
Answer that in terms of
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:18:37
So at the last audit and governance committee,
the agenda and the papers had been published.
And on the Friday before, I think it was the Monday
of the committee, these adjustments came to light.
So in terms of at the time of the previous combined
authority, the statement of accounts was to be published,
go through the normal process of governance, i .e. the last committee, so there was no issue.
It was only on the Monday that we disclosed, that we discussed what the potential issue is,
which we are discussing today, and we had the debate and discussion about briefings
and having another committee of this position.
At that same time, on that Friday, I had extensive conversations with Alistair from Mazars,
I also spoke to the police and committee and ensure that they were aware that the police weren't in questioning the police accounts.
We were just basically detected that there was a group consolidation issue.
So we make sure that everyone that needed to be briefed was briefed at that time, including the mayor, the deputy mayor.
I can't remember, it seems a few weeks ago now,
any other combined authority members at the time.
And so I think everyone that needed to be in the position
apart from the wider extended combined authority, sorry.
So also Damon, at the last meeting
of the combined authority, which as Damon says,
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:20:19
happened right in the middle of this process taking place,
a question was asked about this
in the combined authority meeting as part of the paper on the budget approval.
And it was asked by Councillor Lamb and Councillor Lamb was good enough to let us know that he was going to ask the question.
So we were able then to report verbally to the combined authority about this incident.
So the combined authority has been informed about this and there is a written record of them having been informed
which will be published in the minutes of that meeting which, and those minutes are published later today as part of the PAC for next week.
So I am confident that the combined authority
has been informed appropriately of this matter,
noting the different roles that governance and audit committee
and the combined authority board have.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:21:21
Has anybody got any other questions on this paper?
Could you take us through that then please?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:21:38
I will yes and so there's a bit of a collection of extended loaded papers on there so just
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 0:21:43
to be clear in the published papers you have, just referring to it, you have the letter
of representation which Rob has already thankfully pointed out the typo. I'll take that on the
chin, that's me missing something. You've also got our audit completion report at appendix
2. That was presented to the last meeting so I wasn't proposing to talk through that
report in detail. But that's sent out separately. You have my audit opinion, my proposed audit
opinion and also the auditor's annual report which Damon circulated to members yesterday.
Was it yesterday? This week is already a long week. I think it was yesterday.
And that document that was circulated summarises the output from the external audit work we
have done.
And reiterating the response that I've just given to the previous question, no work has
been carried out on the financial statements, so a disclaimer opinion is being issued.
However, as a result of the work that the Combined Authority has done since the last
meeting and making the corrections that are in appendix three to the report there are
still further material internal discrepancies in the accounts that will take longer to resolve
which Damon has referred to as being those matters that will lead to next year adjustments
to those figures. The resolution of those matters is more complicated than the simple
adjustments that were able to be made.
So as Damon said, that work is ongoing
at the Combined Authority to identify
how the discrepancies have arrived
and what the corrections need to be.
My audit opinion will refer to, does refer to
those material inconsistencies as well as
providing a disclaimer and that's a technical requirement
of my audit reporting and the auditing standards that underpin my audit reporting that I need
to refer to things that otherwise would have been matters that I would have qualified the
accounts on.
So that was all I proposed to say on the accounts.
The auditor's annual report that you received yesterday also summarises the work that we've
carried out on the authorities arrangements
to deliver value for money,
which is the second of my responsibilities
as your external auditor,
and that work has been completed as planned, as intended.
The backstop arrangements make no allowance
for the value for money work to be deferred or delayed
in any way, quite rightly, and we've completed that work
and included our commentary on those arrangements in that auditor's annual report.
It is a very similar position to the previous year that we reported.
So in the previous year we reported, looking back, in a timely and appropriate way, a significant
weakness on the arrangements to produce the financial statements by the statutory deadline.
And I think the conversations that we've had over the last two meetings have highlighted
the need for the authority to address that weakness and thus that recommendation, because
that underpins having high quality timely financial statements underpins the work that
I do as the external auditor and means that I can complete that external audit on a timely
basis.
We have also highlighted the work and the progress made on the two what we call other
recommendations in last year's report which are both around the focusing financial plans
on the medium term and the budget reporting that goes alongside the medium term financial
plans.
So I think that's all I intended to say Chair, I'm happy to take questions on any of the
reports, the collection of external audit documents that are in there.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:26:22
Thank you. Any questions? Yes Rob.
Thanks Chair, it's sort of a question prompted by Alastair's report
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:26:31
but I guess it's back
to Damon. On page 12 of the report that came out yesterday in reference to the CA not having
developed an MTFS yet, although it's probably getting developed as we speak, and that table
above, from a governance point of view, and I'm not interested in the detail because you
bit about when any sort of budget, there's a surplus on it, then something hasn't been
achieved that was perhaps planned by either its efficiencies that have led to an underspend
or additional income or whatever. And equally with the capital programme, albeit a capital
programme that's 88 % delivered is probably pretty good, there are obviously things that
were planned to be done that weren't. So from a governance point of view, other committees
are naturally going to see the detail of those, but from a governance assurance perspective
about the financial management arrangements, it's perhaps picking up in the workshop session
that I know we've got planned, is to just understand the mechanics of budget monitoring,
capital program management, so that we can be assured that there's robust financial governance,
even though inevitably there will be underspends, overspend, slippage, etc. occurring. But I
suppose it's hard from this committee's perspective to see the mechanics of financial
governance and financial management with what we see through the account. I wouldn't want
to cut across any other committees. It might be a matter of recycling what goes through
the committees that would shed a light on those financial management, financial governance
arrangements. Thank you. I think that's a very good idea.
did you want to come back on that, Daniel?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:28:18
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:28:20
Thank you. In terms of the prior year's
MTFP recommendation, this was a position statement.
We moved, I think, quite a way forward with the budget that we set early on
a few weeks ago in terms of looking at a multi -year budget plan.
So that's probably not reflected at this moment in time
and they'll be reflected in probably 24, 25 VFM work.
So there is a timing of these recommendations
at a certain point in time,
and the work that we've done to set the 25, 26, 26, 27,
27, 28 budget, the NTFP, that was in January,
and that'll be reflected in 24, 25.
So just bear with me on that one.
The budget monitoring and the capital monitoring,
The Q3 report that's going to FRCC this afternoon starts to include further information and further detail.
However, it's not what I want it to be.
Q4 is where it will start to be a lot more detailed, a lot more analysis.
As we strengthened our business partnering, so we've got better at our forecasting and we've got a lot more intelligence
I suppose over the capital programme with strengthening of a capital programme director in transport and various other appointments that have come in.
So we feel that now actually we've got the resources to do that to get the deliverable and the output that we want.
So I certainly think Q4's monitoring report will be a better reflection of the type of detail you would expect.
And certainly from Q1 next year, we will virtually have a report that's been zero based.
And with that zero base in, we've looked at how the budget is constructed, how the chart of accounts is set up in the system.
Because we've just resurrected the CIA project, which is a systems project, to really look at all the improvements that are needed.
That system itself has been in development really and hadn't concluded and it's not where we want it to be.
Because we will need to look at the reporting and the output and we need to make sure that by the 31st of March
when we set the new budget for 1st of April in the system that it's got everything it needs to be.
So that zero basin has actually started but it will only manifest itself in actually a budget construct in Q1 next year.
But can I just conclude, so if you need any more detail on that I would suggest that I could wrap that up in the briefing on the 28th of April at the next meeting.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:31:05
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:31:06
Because I can actually show you the improvements and maybe the pack might reflect the direction of travel.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:31:15
I don't want to create any more work because it's just showing us what exists and I know
there's obviously a difference between the management accounting that you've just described
and the financial accounting but actually for us to get assurance around that general
capacity for the team to be able to manage both would be useful and if that can be picked
up at that next meeting that would be great.
Can you make a note of that and we'll make sure that happens.
Thank you, it's a good idea.
Is there any – yeah.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:31:45
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 0:31:48
I just wondered if I could just jump in and in response to Rob's appreciating his question
wasn't at me but the earlier question on Damon's item as well around the follow -up
and the assurance that the committee would seek and look for.
From my perspective I'm very happy I bring an update report to meetings where I don't
have a formal plan or completion report,
I'm very happy to bring my observations
and my thoughts to the committee as well
as the external auditor on the progress that I see
and the development that the authority is working on
to address those weaknesses.
And I think a committee charged with governance
that is high performing would expect that
not only of its external auditor but of its officers to be, your role is to be assured
that those matters are being addressed, that you have those strong governance elements
and I would expect that not just in April but I'd expect that to be something you would
be assured on a going forward basis as well, Chair.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:32:56
I think again that would be really useful if you could do that because I was slightly
concerned to read in the report that some actions from last year haven't been taken
forward so I think to get regular reports on that would be really helpful.
Rob did you want to come back in again? Yeah thanks chair obviously appreciate
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:33:11
Alistair's contribution to an independent view of the CA's capacity
and growing that expertise but not letting four vismas hours off the hook I
think the committee want assurance around your capacity and ability to meet
the deadlines because obviously not every external audit firm has been in
the position to do that so there's two sides of this assurance picture I think
we need in else and from focus mazars. Thank you. Any further questions? Yes
Councillor Paulson. Yeah probably along similar lines and going through the
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:33:46
Cllr Rebecca Poulsen Bradford Council - 0:33:48
report we got late yesterday on the overall commentary on governance it says
obviously in 22 -23, Mazar's raised significant weakness
in the authorities' financial reporting arrangements
back then.
And then you go on to say you confirm,
you consider this weakness is in place for the year ended,
end of March 24.
So I really would like to know what's
been going on in the interim, really,
why this has been still an ongoing issue.
What are we doing?
Can we have some assurance here that the accounts
for this next year will be signed off and ready to go by,
I think it's at the end of May is the deadline.
End of June for next year.
End of June for next year, thank you.
They will hit the deadlines and they will be accurate
and get to the external auditor
because this seems to be a recurrent theme.
It's coming up in the value for money report yesterday.
It doesn't seem to be being addressed in the report
and I'm hoping it is being addressed
and give you some assurance here
because it is a big concern if this has been allowed to run and run year after
year.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:34:56
Again, it's about the report is on the 23,
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:01
24 position and the recommendations from 23,
22, 23 and 23, 24. If they haven't been implemented,
I can't really comment on why.
All I know is that as of now and certainly for 24,
25, we're pouring in the right resources.
We're building in time, we're building in expertise and if you like, learning, not only the Mazar's workshop, but we've got some other intelligence elsewhere that we're drawing on.
So I can give you assurance, there certainly is the interim finance director and I'm responsible for this close down for 24 -25, that we will meet the deadlines.
I can't talk about if there's going to be prior year adjustments that I'm not aware of.
You don't know what you don't know, but as we look at the opening balances for 24 for 25,
it gives us the opportunity to reflect on the evidence to support those opening balances.
So there might be something in there.
But for 24, 25, close down, we have the timetable,
we've got the commitment from the team,
and I think from the leadership that includes myself and colleagues to make sure that we do everything that's possible to
produce a statement of account that I can sign off in a statutory capacity that the external auditors can give an opinion on
that we want and we need, that they are a true and fair view and there's no material discrepancies.
We're constantly learning lessons from the past but some of the references in this VFM report are for 22, 23, 23, 24.
So when you see the 24, 25 VFM report which will be around, and look at it Alistair, will that be about September, October, I don't know exactly when the...
Two week term index, let's get 23 for that though.
When we get the VFM report for 24 -25, I'm hoping that there won't be any legacy recommendations that remain outstanding.
Because everything we're doing is to make sure that they're being satisfied.
And I welcome Mazarz's commentary at the next order committee that there's a recognition of the progress we've been made.
And we have regular meetings and if it's not going where we want it to, it's my role to intervene.
So we'll make sure that's in place.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alan.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:37:30
Thank you.
If I could just build on what Damon said in noting that there's already been a commitment
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:34
that at the April meeting there'll be an update to the committee around the work that's being
done to improve the capacity and capability within the finance function.
Following these recommendations over the last couple of years, there was then a piece of
work done about what the capability – what capabilities was required in finance, which
which resulted in a wholesale restructure of the finance
team.
So for instance, and I should say
that that has resulted in a changing of some roles.
It has resulted in some new recruitment and new skills
being brought into the organization,
but it's not complete yet.
So there are still some vacancies,
which we are looking to recruit.
We had a particular challenge around a key appointment,
which was for a group financial accountant, which
which remained vacant for a number of months,
which we struggled to recruit to,
which has now been filled,
and which is Helen.
And also,
the role that Gary previously played
as head of finance across the entirety
of the organization's finances
has essentially been split into three.
So because of the scale of the operation
that's now required,
the CA is now not far off a billion pound a year
organization and the financial capability and capacity
needs to reflect that.
So Gary's role has been split.
Gary is now the head of corporate and strategic finance.
That we then have someone at Gary's role
who leads on everything to do with economy in place,
including policing, and someone at Gary's level
who leads on everything to do with transport, which
reflects the scale of the operation that's required.
And that is all work that has been taking place over
the last six to nine months.
So it's not complete, but there it gives you,
and we'll do a comprehensive note on this for the committee,
but it's to highlight some of the key things
that have been done in response to some of the challenges
that we've been facing over the last couple of years.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:39:34
Any further questions?
No?
Chair, not a question, but at the risk
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 0:39:43
of unnecessarily elongating the discussion,
I just wanted to pick up on the comment made around 2425 and I've just to give the committee
an update or a lack of an update on what the rebuilding assurance looks like for 2425.
As I've reported to committee previously regularly I think through the last year the plans for
rebuilding assurance where there are disclaimer opinions as here is something that we are
looking as an audit supplier and all audit suppliers are looking for central guidance
and central determination from the stakeholders nationally to inform us what direction rebuilding
needs to take.
So there are some very specific and detailed matters
that need to be consistent across all local authorities
and audits of local authorities.
You can't have one audit supplier applying one approach
to rebuilding assurance and another audit supplier
taking a wholly different view
because that would not build assurance in the sector.
Those national discussions are still going ahead.
I've reported previously, I think, my frustration and the lack of progress on that,
because as I come to sign 2324 in the next week, I still don't know what rebuilding assurance looks like
for the Combined Authority for 2425, and I don't actually know when I will know that.
So I will be starting to plan my 24 -5 audit in a bit of a vacuum in that case.
I will obviously, as soon as the position becomes clearer,
as soon as there is clarity from the national stakeholders
as to what that looks like, I'll report back to this meeting
with a clear view on A, what that national framework
looks like, B, what the impact is on the combined authority,
and an accurate view, an accurate view, excuse me,
on the timetable that it will take for me to get to a
position of giving an unqualified opinion
on the combined authorities accounts.
Acknowledging without any of that knowledge, I don't know if that's next year or if it's
the year after or if it's two or three years hence until I have that framework, I don't
know what that will be.
So commitment that I'll bring back to this meeting and probably not for the minute is
my frustration in the fact that I'm not able to say something further to you.
Thank you, I'll stay.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:42:23
Any further comments?
Alan?
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:42:30
Just a final point reflecting further on what Councillor Paulson said earlier about notification to the Combined Authority.
I did say it was reported last time but the Combined Authority meets next week and my suggestion is that the Mayor and Damon provide an update to the Combined Authority in public next week about the outcome of this meeting, whatever that is about to be.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:42:54
Thank you. Which brings us nicely to the key question. So the committee has been asked
to approve the statement of the Council 2324, so is the committee prepared to approve the
accounts based on the assurances we have been given today?
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:43:15
I am, but I just wonder whether in the same context of not qualifying it, acknowledging
from the committee's point of view we have not had the benefit of the full audit and
therefore we are placing significant assurance which is perfectly reasonable on the section
73 officer's statement.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:43:33
I think that's a fair point and a fair request and I would second that.
yeah yeah okay so on that basis are we prepared to accept sign off the accounts
yeah can we okay
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:44:02
that's fine thank you guidance kind we does it carry sorry chair yes it does
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:44:08
Just a question for Councillor Paulson whether you want that recorded in the minutes.
Thank you. It is carried.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:44:13
Thank you. Okay, so if you can note that that has been carried and note that Councillor Paulson didn't support the decision.
Thank you everybody. I think that brings us to the end of the meeting. Thank you very much.