Governance and Audit Committee - Monday 20 January 2025, 11:00am - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance and Audit Committee
Monday, 20th January 2025 at 11:00am 

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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Aamina-Noor Shah Committee Services Officer
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  1. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
  10. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
  13. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  14. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  16. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  17. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  18. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  3. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
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  5. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  18. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  19. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  20. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  21. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
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  1. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
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  4. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  6. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  8. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
  9. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  15. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  16. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  17. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  18. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  19. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  20. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  21. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  22. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
  23. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  24. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  25. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  26. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
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  28. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  3. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
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  5. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  4. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
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  3. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  5. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  6. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  8. Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  16. Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  17. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  18. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  19. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  20. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  21. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  22. David Merrett (Independent Member)
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  24. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
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  1. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  5. Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  11. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  12. Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  13. Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  15. Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Webcast Finished

1 Apologies for Absence

Right, good morning everyone and welcome to Governance and Audit
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:00:12
meeting on the 20th of
January, 2025. We are now recording and filming this meeting. Okay, so agenda item one is
apologies for absence. Have we had any apologies? Apologies for absence have been received from

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

councilor Jeffrey. Thank you. Agenda.
Aamina-Noor Shah Committee Services Officer - 0:00:33
Item two declarations of interest.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:00:37
It's any declarations today? No.

3 Exclusion of the Press and Public

Thank you very much. And agenda. Item three,
we've got one exclusion today and that's in the agenda item 10,
which is risk management. And, and here,
officers have recommended that we take, um,
Part five of that and paper that sorry the appendix five from that agenda item
That's a private session. So we will take questions on a gender item 10 and
But then we will take that separate appendix after we've done the other business at the end of the meeting
Can I ask if all the officers are content with that?
Yeah, thank you a

4 Minutes of the Meeting of the Governance and Audit Committee held on 4 December 2024

Agenda item four is minutes of the last meeting. Any comments or questions on those?
No, thank you. If we can take those as notes, then please. Thank you.

5 Governance Arrangements and Forward Plan 2024/25

So moving on to agenda item five, that's the governance arrangements and forward plan for 2425.
This paper has been presented to this committee before, but we were in quorum then.
so it's been brought back today mainly for noting and so Caroline did anything
to add to that at all or yeah I think the report is self -explanatory but happy
to take any questions that there might be thank you any questions on that for
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:11
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:02:11
today bronze just one item check the forward plan suggests that we were going
bring an internal audit draft plan to this meeting but the discussion we had
last time was given that we are still business planning getting to the end of
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:28
that process we haven't got a draft plan ready yet we're going to bring it to
April if the committee are content with it that will be agreed and that will
become the final audit plan so it's just to amend the forward plan to that effect.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:02:43
Thank you.

6 Governance, Empowerment and Accountability

Okay, moving on to agenda item six, that's governance, empowerment, and accountability.
And this paper seeks to update the Committee on Changes to Internal Governance Arrangements
following an internal review.
And the internal review was done with a view to supporting the delivery of some substantial
programs of work.
I think it's an important paper, this committee, to be comfortable with and the proposals within
in it because they do relate to the decision making processes.
And so it's quite critical that we're comfortable that those changes to the,
to the processes, um, are sound.
So in this respect,
the committee is being asked to endorse the new officer board structure and
changes to the office of decision making arrangements. Caroline,
are you going to introduce this paper?
Thank you, chair. Yes. Um,
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:38
Yeah
Jay you've already provided a
Really helpful and succinct introduction as to why this has come forward and why it's important for this committee
And but just to build on that this was these steps that we've put in place in relation to officer decision -making
We've been recognized for a little while and reflect the changes that have been made particularly around
scaling up the senior structure and officer structure to
to reflect the challenging set of ambitions and priorities that the combined authority
has. And so our governance improvement plan for this year that was approved by this committee
earlier in the year actually highlights that and it's set out there at paragraph 3 .3. So
we recognized at that point that we wanted to look at our office of board. When I say
our office of board structure, this is very much around the format for taking formal decisions
and exercising delegations. And have we got that? How do we cut that? And have we got
that right? And tied in with that is the actual sub -delegation scheme from the chief executive.
So broadening out in reality the delegated authority that executive directors and directors
and down to heads of service have for taking forward their areas and their business plans in their areas of the corporate plan.
So the two elements have been worked up in tandem.
It's been very much a collaborative piece of work led firmly by the chief executive,
I think in terms of his vision for how this would work and reflecting some of the new director posts that have come forward during this year.
it. We have gone live with it from this month from the sixth of January. We've done it as
a we've sought to do it not as a big bang, but very much as a as an evolutionary process
that we continue to work with our offices at all levels. Change this change this some
of this is very much around a culture change in terms of how we work as well. It's it's
days were only a couple of weeks in so I'm don't want I'm not going to jinx it
and say everything's everything's fantastic it has very much gone as a as
an as an easy start but I think it's as we start to rely on it more so in
practice over the next few months that will tease out some of probably the
challenges around it I think some of the key changes we've made on the officer
boards and you'll see that appendix one we've actually set out the new board
of structure. Um, we've looked to introduce three,
what we've called pan organization boards.
So a strategic leadership board, um,
chaired by the chief executive with the most senior, um,
office of structure there meeting, um, on a, on a bi -monthly basis,
really trying to get that meeting simply say simply to focus very much on that
strategic horizon scanning. What are the big things?
Where do we need that space to actually check and challenge and look forward without that becoming, I suppose, a time being eaten up by operational matters.
So stripping that out and having that strategic focus. The first meeting of that board is due to happen next week.
So that will be that will be when we start to put some flesh on the bones in terms of how that works.
The investment board and performance border, then both boards that are shared by the exact directors.
So, executive director transport chair, the investment board and the CEO Allen is a CEO to chair the performance board.
Complementary boards and potential for overlap between the two of them, which we are aware of.
So that will need to be managed in terms of in terms of items that come forward.
But the investment board very much focusing in terms of directors bringing their portfolio board escalation points or the sort of the key issues that flow from those investment strategies and that that longer term.
and I'm about to say more about these than I am sure matters for that board.
And then performance board being more so around organizational performance
and resources and budget, of course, will transcend both of those boards.
So the investment board and performance board
have been operating in shadow form over part of this year
and are starting to really firm up.
But the key thing, I think, is that both director
membership and above, but they, so we do have that cross -organizational input.
So previously, certainly in terms of organizational performance, we tended to put under Alan's
chairmanship, it was very much the corporate center that was membership of that and driving
the issues and then taking them out to other bits of the organization.
We realized we were missing a trick there because actually you want that buy -in, that
changes what we're going to do about it cross organization so I think that's the
strength of those boards we then have a tier bill a tier that's the at a
strategic level in terms of economy and transport and under each of those we
have directorate outcome boards check where each director has their
responsibility and for their own business plan and part of the corporate
priorities. Some of the key principles behind all of these boards is that at each level,
those membership is cross -organization. So we are moving, if we take the directorate
outcome board from that being a meeting where the director will sit with their senior management
team, they now sit with their senior management team plus professionals from the corporate
of centre and whether that's finance commercial HR legal as members of the board all committed to driving forward and the priorities of that directorate and that business plan.
So we're trying so in terms of ways of working, we're really trying to step change that and have the right people in all of those discussions.
The structure isn't a hierarchical one. It isn't one where something has started to direct to a board and then has to go all the way up to the strategic.
You know, we're trying to avoid that. There's escalation routes in there where it's appropriate.
So if that's around risk resource or budget, they can that can then be earmarked for the appropriate board.
But they're not. It isn't a whole set of five tiers to go through to get anywhere.
It is the board structure that we're looking to for formal decision -making to be exercised.
So we ensure that there is an effective report template, there's a standardised template,
the right people around the meeting table for that decision to be taken and then we've got a centralised system for the recording and storing of those decisions.
We are also trying to build stronger linkages through this officer board structure between
member and officer decision making so that as a collective at each of those levels there
is that sense of, okay, so what operationally are the forthcoming decisions at an officer
level?
What does that mean in the member arena?
Where are those key milestones that we need to bring this back to a member arena?
And are we, in terms of that forward planning, alerting our committees and our members to
that much more?
So, so rather than thinking of it as two separate decision -making streams actually integrating
that to make sure that we are alerting members to things at the right time and, and ensuring
that the steps are in place.
The other key change I think for the, certainly for the Strategic Leadership Board is the
Chief Exec is, is very keen to bring in non -executive directors into that meeting structure.
And so that will be a piece of work which will be happening over the next
month or two with the aim to have those in place for the next financial year.
And that is really to bring check and challenge both on the financial side and
the organizational side through those roles. So that is a key change to that
internal approach. I'm conscious I've talked quite a bit and we've got a very
agenda so I'll speed up but it's the in terms of the chief execs of delegation
scheme that is very much aligned to business plans each director at level
has a business plan and a service level below that so we are the the scheme that
is in place now provides authority to take the decisions necessary to take
that business plan forward subject to a number of thresholds and controls the
obvious one being no it's within budget and then we have the controls in terms
of contract standing orders and our constitutional arrangements and also
the fact that this is about operating and taking forward proposals that have
already had that strategic approval from members whether that's through the CA
or a committee so it's implementing that member approach. It's new, it's
Then we are looking to we're saying we might get some of it right. We might get some of it wrong. We've very much got a program of monitoring communication. We've got linkages in with officers that support each of these meetings, whether that's through the PA support team or whether it's through our governance team meeting regularly sharing feedback.
and we'll continue to look at this and adapt it and change it as necessary over the next few months.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:13:45
I shall stop there. Thank you, Chair, but happy to take any questions.
Thank you. Any questions? Councillor Scullion.
Thank you. Not so much questions as seeking reassurances, really, comments and seeking reassurances.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:13:58
I very much welcome the outcomes focus on this in this report.
And actually, this really has got to be delivery, delivery, delivery, really, as the organization
matures.
My feeling was very much in terms of the report that, and it's a clear report, thank you.
And it does, I think, make things clearer and makes the lines of responsibility and
delegated decision -making clearer.
But it has to be available to flex and to change.
and I suspect we may be coming back to look at this again,
because I'm conscious that the new government has just produced
a white paper on devolution,
which mentions existing combined authorities
in different states of maturity,
and seem to be quite keen, if not gung -ho,
to make all kinds of changes,
which will shift the remit,
even where it doesn't actually expand the role of the combined authority,
and we need to keep an eye on that in terms of scheme of delegation, those kind of things.
And perhaps just one or two observations in terms of it is clear from this and from other
things that we look at that transport provided the genesis of this particular organisation.
That was our heart and our being in terms of passenger transport and so on and is still
a very large part of our work and as we move towards the bus franchising system
it's going to be almost all -consuming and I wouldn't like to lose sight of the
importance of the other directorates and the work that we're doing on housing, on
climate, on economic regeneration and I don't want to see those being and or
tagged on to transport really important that I want to see that being much more
integrated and I liked very much the attempts in terms of the board to be more integrated
and have fewer silos but to try and get some of that cross -cutting thing. I wanted to just
provide a note of caution and you would expect that from us politicians really that a scheme
of delegation which gives a lot of responsibility in the public sector to a chief executive
of taking decisions, you know, of course we understand that there are areas where that
has to be exercised between meetings, but obviously in consultation. So, you know, we're
always watching in terms of, you know, how many decisions have to be taken in that way
and we'd rather there were fewer, I think, than more. And we understood during COVID
why there was a reason for that being a larger number, but we'd really welcome that relatively
small number of decisions which were taken by the Chief Executive rather than coming
into the more open democratic forums. You used the word, Caroline, step change and I
think it is about shaping and firming the organisation up for this next bit and that
makes setting the strategic plans so important and the budget so important of what we do
within those. And I'm just wondering, Chair, whether there's a role for this committee
in terms of we look at the forward plan for audit and various other things that are to
do with, you know, annual government statement and so on. And I wonder whether we should
have a bit of a briefing, perhaps one of our informal meetings, which looks at the formal
plan for the organization. Because some of us as leaders get to see a lot of the detail
about bus franchising and so on. If we're going to audit what's ongoing and what's after
the fact in terms of governance and finance, I think it'd be good if we all had a sense
as a committee of the big forward plan, what's ahead of us as an
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:17:59
organization. So I wonder
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:18:02
if we could fit that in rather than always feeding slightly after the event. I'll stop
there almost as long as Caroline, but not quite.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:18:07
Thank you for that. I mean, I would certainly endorse that proposal. I think that's a really good idea because it sets what this committee does in context, doesn't it?
So would other committee members support that as well?
Yeah, so if we could note that, please, as an action, I think that's a very good idea.
Caroline, did you want to come back on any of that before we get to the next question?
No.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:18:28
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:18:30
No. Okay, so Councillor Lamb, you've got a question. Yeah.
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 0:18:35
Thank you. Well, I endorse what Councillor Scullion said and I won't revisit it.
I just wanted to clarify that I've understood correctly what we're doing here,
which if I've understood you and the paper, it's really an internal tidying up and streamlining process.
It is not about changing the schemes of delegation and what decisions officers can take.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:19:03
It doesn't change the current relationship between the delegations from members to officers.
Yes, you're correct. This is about how then the chief executive uses his senior team to take decisions on his behalf.
But no, it hasn't changed the parameters in terms of what we've already got.
And I did hear Councillor Scullion's points in terms of how that delegation is utilised as well.
But no, this is a little bit more than tidying up.
But I think the paper's been brought to give some assurance,
I suppose, to this committee in terms of what the fitness
for purpose of the internal officer decision -making
arrangements.
But you are correct.
Just to follow up quickly.
So the one point I would echo, particularly
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:19:49
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 0:19:49
from Councillor Scullion, is the importance
of getting the balance of democratic oversight
right in this which is yes we want to make speedy decisions we want things to happen
quickly but we've got to make sure that it's done properly and not lose sight of the fact
that this is a democratic organisation. Thank you. Rob and then I'll take them.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:20:14
Thanks chair. I completely understand the reason for this organisation is need to be
agile as much as they can obviously but recognizing the democratic element of this.
I just wonder, it's sort of a question for Bronwyn I guess, is your input into the development
of this from an independent perspective that what's been established should work, if you
know what I mean, and then it would feature as part of next year's audit plan to be giving
us independent assurance that it is indeed working and there's some consistency and the
record keeping is what it should be.
So yes, I have been involved in the development of all of this.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:20:59
Caroline has an internal governance
work stream that she uses to test out, check and challenge as things develop. Alan has
also made sure that I have a place on both the investment board and the performance board,
not to make operational decisions, but to look at the decisions as they are being made to consider whether we need to do any further assurance around those and to make sure that that context feeds through into the audit work that we do.
And I am already finding them because Caroline did suggest that we develop this over time and we have a number of shadow boards.
It is hugely helpful to our work to be involved at that level.
So yes, yes and yes.
That's what we like to hear. Thank you. Damon.
Chair, just to come back on the forward plan discussion.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:21:47
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:21:49
We had a conversation, Chair, about looking forward this year and trying to get briefings, timely briefings,
between committees on the statements of accounts, on the command authorities' priorities and the budget,
treasury management in more detail,
The role of external audits, there was a number of briefings that we wanted tabling and I think committee services have started to plan those.
So you will start to see some invitations go out to you for these briefings, they're not mandatory, you know, you've all got busy workloads.
But what we've tried to do is do them, we're a couple of weeks ahead of the committee, so it's not just piled on, so there might be follow -up actions or queries.
So we've tried to build in a series of briefings for the whole year.
Now, if there is anything that you feel that's actually missing that you feel would be of
value, then, again, we're open to making sure that we put those briefings on.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:22:45
I think that's a really good offer.
Thank you very much.
And if any of the people want to come back on that, either get in touch with me or, you
know, the office of support or, yeah, and we'll make sure that those are diarized for
us.
I've got one question, and it's really around the check, it's around the new structure.
I know Bron's been supporting in this in terms of making sure it works, but what measures
have you got in the interim sort of outside of the annual audit program to make sure that
the check, the challenge, the transparency between these various layers is there?
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:23:26
So, we have a small project team that worked closely on the first phase of this, and part
of their program of activity over this next three to six months is to do that regular
monitoring. We have the, we'll certainly take feedback. Obviously, we have representation
to each of the boards in any event. But we will, we are both meeting with the
secretariat that support and have the central register and so we've got access to that.
We can check that we will be doing some, I suppose, dip sampling in terms of reports
and decisions taken in terms of the robustness of those.
So, a number of measures, I think, and then we will be reporting back to performance boards.
So, we will do regular reporting on that monitoring in terms of what we found and any recommendations
for change.
Thank you.
Any further questions on that paper?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:24:30
No.
So, can I check if the committee endorses the structure first?
Yes, thank you.
And do we endorse the decision -making arrangements, too?

7 Internal Audit Progress Update

Yeah, lovely. Thank you very much. Okay, so we move on to agenda item seven and that's a standard agenda item which is the internal audit progress update.
Ron, do you want to take us through this, please?
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:24:59
Thank you, Chair. So I've just been reflecting on the content of this report, which is very much about continuous improvement, as I'm sure you will have picked up from looking at it.
I did hope to have a more formal feedback opportunity on the results of our EQA, but
they haven't completed it yet.
We've had no major showstoppers so far, so I remain confident.
And we are about to start the peer review process in reverse.
We're about to do TFGM's EQA ourselves.
And as I explained previously, that then goes for moderation to make sure that none of us
have stepped out of line or there's been any undue conflict.
So at the April committee, I'll be able to give you the formal outcome.
But for now, we're looking pretty good. So I'm confident at this point.
I'm also confident and I'm sure I'm going to say this before anybody asks me the question.
And Alan asks me this every time we meet. How confident am I,
given where we are against our plan, that we will deliver enough to give a clean opinion?
I'll tell you what I say to Alan and then I'm going to back it up with some evidence.
So I am confident still that we will deliver enough work to not limit the
opinion by the amount of work that we've done. I'm confident because we've had our
two new starters who came to us from Calderdale Council so I feel I owe them
an apology but we're really pleased to have them on board and it really does
give us a little bit more coverage in terms of getting through that plan. We
still have three posts that we are trying to recruit to and we are still
struggling with that national shortage that is impacting not just us but everybody.
And we are looking at alternatives that I've discussed previously with the committee.
But I also then did a little bit of looking back at where we were this time last year.
And we are at 16 percent of our plan now, which sounds terrible, but I promise you is pretty much
where we were last year. We were at 19 percent delivery at this point last year. So when I
I'm confident, I do have an evidence base to say we can deliver this and we do have
more results this year than we did last year.
That is obviously offset by the fact that we have a more ambitious plan this year, so
we do still have quite a lot to go at.
But we have our plans in place for delivering that, so I remain confident.
The other bit on the continuous improvement side is, I mean, in the papers you'll see
we've put our current quality improvement plan in.
It's a requirement of the standards that we have one.
It needs to reflect on both the outcomes from previous EQAs
and our own self -assessments against the standards
every year.
I've put that in this time round because once we get our EQA
results, that will need quite a big overhaul and refresh
to make sure we accommodate anything that comes out of that.
But also, just thinking about quality assurance
going forward for the audit function.
We self -assess against the standards.
We have lots of peer networks.
We do lots of comparisons with other audit functions
to see what they're doing.
But I think there's room for improvement.
And I wanted to suggest to the committee
to sort of take a temperature check
on how everyone would feel about us
putting some proposals together for the next meeting
on where we think we can enhance reporting.
If the committee has some ideas here today
as to what they would like to see us do.
I'm happy to take those on board to consider that
and bring a paper back to committee next time.
It is timely, we've got new global audit standards.
We have to do a review against those to see where we are.
I think it's a good chance though to make sure
that we're not just doing what we are statutorily
required to do, but we're doing what this committee
would find helpful.
So I throw that out there as a kind of a,
this is your chance to raise any things
that you would like to see changed, improved, developed, enhanced.
And also to give you, obviously from the papers,
the sense of where we are at this point in time.
I'm not going to say any more than that,
because I think I've given quite a bit of food for thought there.
But again, happy to take questions on the paper
and happy to take any suggestions about where committee members
might have some thoughts for the future.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:29:15
Thanks, Ron.
Any questions from anybody or comments or suggestions?
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:29:25
as Bronwyn's just asked. Rob? Thanks, thanks Bron. Having been in your position, getting the balance right of reporting detail and opening a window into audit matters is not particularly easy.
I think to help for the committee to help you, I think there's probably a little bit more information within the report that would help us identify the key issues arising from audit work
to then be able to look clearly in the eyes of management rather than yourself
and the extent to which there is scope potentially for almost a different agenda item that would,
picking on Alan, that Alan would present that would demonstrate management's response to
internal audit recommendations or findings that places firm accountability and responsibility
on management to respond and sort of remove that. You're finding what you're finding,
saying what you're saying, over to you management to explain and be accountable for that. And
I think with the outstanding recommendations, that little extra bit of granularity in terms
of us getting a sense of the ones that have been delayed, what are the particular risks
associated with those delays and how are management dealing, again not for you as auditor, but
as for management, how are they accepting the risk and is there anything in the interim
they might be doing to mitigate that risk until the full implementation has been affected.
So I think there's one or two things that possibly we can talk about and look at your
and doing.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:31:24
Thanks, Rob, and I would support that.
Would other committee members find that useful to have that greater degree of granularity
around this, if you support the development of an extra gender item?
Yeah?
Lovely.
Yeah, so if we can try and work that up, Ron, that would be really helpful, thank you.
Any other questions from any of the members?
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:31:53
I mean it's a bit of sort of detail, apologies, but I noticed in the QAIP action plan and
I had this in my role, the issue around data analytics and whether you considered or got
a draft data analytics strategy for us to understand exactly what you're going to do
with idea what you're going to do with this bit of technology that's going to enable you
to do more with less, different audits, give a different perspective on fraud, threat,
compliance, whatever it might be. So I think that would be something I'd welcome to understand
how that is going to affect audit coverage moving forward.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:32:39
Thank you. Bron.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:32:43
I was just going to say, one of the requirements of the new global standards is an IEA strategy.
So I think my proposal would be we can bring something soon on data analytics because we
are really motoring on with that.
And a lot of that is about running some very standard testing around finance controls and
reporting to see whether there are any things that leap out that we need to be raising with
management while we are in a somewhat difficult position
with external audit coming some of that chorus,
as they did previously.
So I think we could bring a data analytics paper
to the next meeting as well.
Really happy to do that.
It is absolutely what we're working on currently.
But then I think that needs to be positioned in that wider IA
audit strategy that comes out of the review
against the new global standard.
So it's all seemingly coming together.
It's almost like somebody thought about this
and is trying to enhance and improve the way audit responds and reports to its governance
structures.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:33:46
I sort of raise it not only just from a pure practitioner perspective for internal audit,
but almost not bridging the gap, but in the absence of understandable limitations of external
audit work, there is scope for complementary assurance to be provided on behalf of Daymond
there, direct hello there. Obviously such tools can be extraordinarily useful to use
for that. Thank you. I have got a quick question for
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:34:21
On 5 .3 on the audit chart it talks about unfettered access to the CEO.
Is that sort of reinforced with a formal dotted line in the organisation chart and equally
do you get unfettered access to this committee in terms of having discussions about concerns
you may have?
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:47
I think that would just – I think it would be helpful in terms of just reinforcing that
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:35:20
that message. So in terms of an informal meeting with Bron between this committee and Bron
just to talk about audit matters, any concerns she may have, would the committee find that
useful if we schedule something? Yes? Looking around the table. Yes. Yes, Rob, do you want
on it?
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:35:42
Linked as part of the next agenda, whether it's either a formal meeting or a briefing,
on your arrangements for meeting the new standards.
I mean, they're not – they're an evolution, not a revolution, are they?
So, good internal audit teams won't have to fundamentally change everything, but I think
it would be useful for us to be assured that whatever you need to change, you've got plans
to change it and what the implications of that might be.
I think that would be helpful, Chair.
Okay, so we can take that one forward.
Thank you.
Any other questions on that paper?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:36:32
No.
So can I ask to commit, sorry, yes, sorry.
Thanks, so it's just in response to what Rob said about
management response, okay, so completely support that.
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:36:47
And we will find a way of kind of separating that this is
audits view and this is management response view.
And then as you rightly say, it's management who should be
holding to account for the actions being taken.
And the other thing just to flag is that,
Caroline was talking earlier about the new government
structure so all of the recommendations from audit are considered that will now
be considered going forward at performance board which contains all of
the directors where directors will be held to account for progression of them
and the other thing to flag is that at the moment our arrangement is that we've
got we've got three ratings of internal audit report reasonable limited and
minimal any minimal report automatically once it's gone through in our internal
processes comes to this committee with the attendance of the relevant director so that
they can be held to account in this forum for the progression of the recommendations
in response.
But what you're asking is that we broaden that out so it's not just the minimal stuff,
it's the wider recommendations as well.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:37:54
If I may, Chair, obviously there's one aspect of accountability for internal audit things,
they may well and due course be external audit matters as well, you've got your own internal
governance improvement plans, you're developing a risk, a far more sophisticated risk approach
which in itself will have actions and mitigations. I just wonder whether there's something that
you could consider that almost, and particularly that would link to the new board structure,
that periodically there's almost a governance compliance report that comes out from that
board or that director or head of service that captures internal audit stuff, governance
improvement stuff, risk stuff, any other sort of inspection actions as a catchall that would
demonstrate compliance and accountability for things. It's not replicating a performance
board because that's something else but the reflection on how that particular part of
the CA is complying, it's meeting its corporate responsibilities, it's up to date with its
risks things, it's responding to internal audit and then that can afford the opportunity
for the committee to see and have that director head of service in front of us. It can work
as a quite efficient way of brigading all the compliance and governance things in one
place, not just insisting on it but something perhaps to think of as a way of bringing management
and the committee together. Thanks Rob, so maybe we could consider that
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:39:36
as part of the other changes and do some extra agenda items and work that into a proposal?
I think that's a really good idea.
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:39:44
We have an annual governance statement at the moment which covers all of those areas
but it is only annual and is extensive.
We also have a regular report to this committee which is the compliance and monitoring report
which is later on the agenda which is in more detail about the last quarter's data.
What you're asking for I think is something that is in between.
So more frequent than the annual governance statement which is dealing with the live issues
across the range of things that you've just described but isn't as granular as this is
how many health and safety incidents we have this month.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:40:18
Exactly it's sort of connecting all those corporate things but relating them to an area
of accountability that a director or head of services is responsible for because at
the moment it's very corporate as a whole it'd be hard for us to know which aspects
of the CAEs, you know, the good ones and the bad ones and the indifferent ones, so it's
just that granularity to just get inside a few things a bit closer.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:40:51
Thanks. Sorry, just linking into that, one of the other areas of development, and we're
not there yet, is introducing what we've called Director's Assurance Statements. And so we
We have got a draft version of that.
We ran a draft version in the summer.
And then our priorities have shifted onto the office of board work,
and that's been caused.
But what we are aiming to do is for each director on a six -monthly basis.
So in October, and I'll take your point.
This is something more frequent.
But at least sort of at an October point and an end -of -year point,
we've now got a template assurance statement,
which we are happy to share with the committee, which is looking at all those areas of compliance
responsibility and either saying in my area I am complying, yes, no, partially and then
comments and then using that information for us to either say we have got a training need
here, we have got a resourcing need, what is it that is meaning that those areas of
compliance are not being met, but then using that information to feed into our annual governance
statement. So we are actually bringing it down to that directorate level rather than
it just being organizational. So we've been along the same lines in terms of that, but
what we might need to do, I think, is to look at something, at sort of the regular updates
that come to this committee and how we tie that in. But I think the areas of the assurance
statement are probably a very good start. So we'll share that as a template with the
committee outside the meeting.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:42:29
I think that would go a long way to answering your question on that.
And then if we find it works, if we can embed that in our schedule of business, that would
be really good.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:42:40
What I wouldn't want to do is to create another process, just use whatever exists and is created
for management purposes to recycle into the committee.
I don't create another industry just to serve Aussie or to be recycling.
Thank you.
Any other questions?
No?
Okay.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:43:03
So can I ask if the Committee approves the updated Internal Audit Charter?
Thank you.
Okay.

8 External Audit Update

So we move on to Agenda Item 8 and that's the External Audit Update.
The Committee has been asked to receive an update on the External Audit and receive the
external audit opinions on the 2324 accounts, which the committee has previously considered.
We have been asked to approve the accounts as well, but there have been some facts come
to light which Damon will take you through, which means we probably can't do that today.
So instead we're going to ask the committee's permission to delegate authority for me to
work with Damon and approve the accounts when some matters have been explored and resolved.
So Damon, do you want to take us through?
Thanks, yeah.
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:43:53
I think Mazarz gave an update at the December meeting
with regard to the backstop and the approach
and the fact that for the 22, 23 statements of accounts,
they give a disclaimed opinion.
So that's noted in this report.
It's also notes if you like the approach to fees
for any work that's gonna be undertaken
and the role of the PSAA.
They're still committed to continuing, you know, to analyze and to challenge variations.
So this report briefly talks about the backdrop, backstop dates and also the fees.
It also, as Chair, you just rightly pointed out that we were hoping that the statement of accounts could actually be signed off today.
However, on Friday, and it's literally hot off the press,
and we realized that it was actually detected
that when you've got the combined authority accounts
and you've got the police accounts,
when you consolidate and produce a group position,
there were some material errors
that was in that consolidation
that would normally be picked up
on a statistical review.
If there was a full external audit going on,
you'd expect internal audit to pick up
as part of their quality assurance role.
So this was literally on Friday
and Alistair and I had lengthy conversations on Friday
about the debits and credits and the impact.
Bear in mind, you've got your police accounts
that are intact, that's been reported,
their INE is fine, the balance sheet is fine. The same with the combined authority but it's
at the group level, the consolidated level. And we are still working through the detail
to actually say, you know, how did we double count? And that's what we think we double
counted the police INE into the group accounts. How we unravel that will be a series of debits
and credits that I will ensure that our excellent auditors
are comfortable with.
They have obviously got a view because it's not,
because their approach.
The chair and I will, will,
I will brief the chair in terms of actually,
this is how to correct the position.
We will look at, if you like,
the impact on the following year,
if there is any material impact.
So when this report came out,
he was asking to approve the accounts,
however we're not in that position so that's why the delegation is in place.
And I think, Alistair, do you want to comment on that because we've had conversations on this?
Yeah, thanks Damon, I can do.
And also I also wanted to talk you through my completion report,
which I think came out separately.
Alistair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 0:46:48
Can you all confirm you did get that completion report? Thank you, that's good.
It should have been in the agenda papers,
but it's good that you've had it in time to scrutinize it.
If I discuss the matter that Damon's highlighted
in terms of the accounts, I think for me
this highlights two really important things.
One, which Damon's touched on,
which is the importance of robust internal
quality assurance processes around
the statement of accounts, because the combined
authority has a complex set of accounts.
there are group accounts, but they're consolidating
to big complex organizations themselves.
So having that knowledge and understanding
of how to do that consolidation
and pull those accounts together is important,
but also that confidence that your finance director has
that when he brings a set of accounts
and publishes a set of accounts,
as these are the accounts of the combined authority,
they're confident that those have been scrutinized internally and they're
confident with that. So that I think when you have issues like this it does put
that focus on the after the event kind of consideration of what happened
and why and why could we have avoided how could we have avoided this and how
will we avoid this next time. I think the other thing that it focuses on is as I
I said in December, as you recall, those of you at that meeting, that we give a disclaimer opinion on 22 -23, and because of the lack of time to complete the audit between 22 -3 and 23 -4, we'd be giving a disclaimer on 23 -4.
So there has been no audit work carried out. I give no assurance to Combined Authority as a result of external audit.
This was picked up by a simple look, if I can classify that,
for a different purpose, which identified there were some discrepancies
which are highlighted to Gary and Damon so that they could investigate.
And as a result of those investigations, they're getting to the bottom of it.
So I'm confident it will be resolved and we'll be able to issue the opinion
by the 28th of February, which is our deadline for the 23 -24 opinion.
In terms of my completion report, which I – it's important that it comes to you
to scrutinise and give you the opportunity to discuss the external audit with me, albeit
that there is no formal work on the accounts.
It does include the value for money considerations and the arrangements on VFM.
So it's important that you've had that.
From my perspective, other than this matter to be resolved, there's nothing to report to you as a result of that audit work.
In terms of my value for money arrangements, considerations will bring that commentary to your next meeting.
It will, there are no new weaknesses that we've identified from the work for 2324.
We are highlighting the continued weakness which this issue highlights around the arrangements to produce your statement of accounts by the statutory deadline to a compliance standard.
So I think that what's happening now reinforces that focus of the organization going forward.
So I'll pause at that point if you've got any questions on that.
There wasn't one other matter I wanted to touch on, but before I move on to that,
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:50:42
I'll give you the opportunity to comment on that, Chair.
Thank you.
And just before we move on, Caroline's just pointed out we may need
to bring the accounts back to this committee, so I can work with you certainly.
Damon, I'm looking at it if I can, but yes.
And I suppose my immediate reaction is that that's very concerning.
and I'm asking myself or asking the audit team how it was missed in the first place,
especially given the level of materiality. But I think in terms of moving forward it
would be important for this committee to see the lessons learned out of this and
what actions are going to be taken to prevent a reoccurrence.
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:51:23
If I can respond to, I think it is good practice and it's something we're putting in,
that in March, once the backstop date into February is out the way,
both the external audit team and the internal audit team will be meeting to really undertake a workshop
in terms of the lessons learned, what improvements can be made.
Starting much earlier in the process, we've actually strengthened the team.
We've got a colleague that's here today, that's recently joined us in the last week or two.
We're looking at the resources to make sure that we've got adequate resources.
it's all about rebuilding assurance and that's the process that we're in. So that workshop
I think is a really important addition and it might have happened before but I think
it's really, we've got a strong focal point on what needs to happen this year.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:52:09
Thanks. Bronte, do you want to come in?
Just very quickly, what we can't be is a replacement for external
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:52:17
audit unless we triple the resource
of the team, which I'm sure is not going to happen.
So I think what we need to be clear about is what the second line of defence is in all
of that in terms of the checks and balances, because a lot of that is dependent on people
having those skills and understanding to understand the consolidation process, to be able to effectively
check and challenge that work.
I would hesitate to say that that exists currently in my team.
What we can do is look at the processes that are in place to do those checks.
Why didn't they happen?
what can be done. So we're very happy to be involved in the lessons learned,
looking at what the controls are that are in place, etc. So we need to keep it
in the domain of what internal audit can reasonably do and make sure that that's
effective and we're happy to commit to doing that. What we can't do is an
external audit. So I just wanted to go on record to say there are some constraints as to exactly how much we can do.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:53:13
I appreciate that, although I think we do we need to understand the impacts as
don't we of all of this and quite a few questions so if you can take council
and then councilor scullion and then Rob yeah thank you chair and can just help
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 0:53:24
us understand the scale of the discrepancy we call it that
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:53:36
statement for the police with you know you're looking in circa 852 million so
it's the full double count I mean yeah the way Alistair described is that you
we've probably double counted that into the group position and it should have been knocked out.
So it will be a simple adjustment, we believe.
There are a couple of other linked adjustments, but it's on the group level that's where the adjustments need to take place.
So once I've got the debits and credits all lined up and then I'm assured that we've asked all the scrutiny
questions that you'd expect me to ask and colleagues to ask. Then I'll present that
picture, but we believe it is literally, um, you know, consolidated I and E that's the
issue. Would you concur with that? I mean, we've still got a couple of linked adjustments,
but in terms of the quantum of the size of it, I think.
Yeah, based on my, let's say, scam of it, because I haven't ordered it, because I'm
Alistair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 0:54:45
giving a disclaimer opinion that's what I would concur that it appears like it's
a consolidation adjustment that hasn't been taken out which is double counted
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:54:59
something. Thank you Councillor Scullion. Thank you and really pleased that you've
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:55:02
you've found this error when it comes to the consolidation of the books not
exactly surprised that we have been flagging up for some time in this
committee the difficulty of having the police accounts and the combined
authority accounts to a set of complex accounts. So, not quite better found now than found
in retrospect, so thank you to the officers and the external auditors in relation to that
and look forward to seeing that accounting error adjusted. I just wanted to say a little
bit though, if I may, about the audit completion report that you touched upon, Elster. As I
I read each section specifically thinking about
the combined authority at this precise moment.
I was actually assured, heartened really,
to see each section in terms of the view,
in terms of what was found, in terms of the,
in spite of the disclaimer opinion,
that each section actually was not exactly comforting,
I can't say not comforting, but gave assurance
that actually things were as they should be in relation to what we are actually doing.
And in terms of having to issue the disclaimer opinion, I've just sat through a very similar
report in my own council and Virtually Every Council up and down the land in this position
because of the whole backstop arrangement. I would really like to see us getting through
all of this and the new governments arrangements have been helpful not
entirely solving the problems but helpful really in terms of we now know
where we are as a set of public sector organisations and we'll work forward
from this but thank you for the detail in the completion report. Thank you. Rob.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:56:53
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:56:55
Thanks chair. Obviously it's not a position any of us want to be in
not having the benefit of that external scrutiny. It just occurred to me from no problem whatsoever
in yourself, Chair, working with Damon to get us over the line, I suppose from my point
of view, for the committee's point of view, is understanding the extent and range of assurances
and information that's available to you that gives you the confidence to be able to put
pen on paper to put your name to the accounts. Now obviously we get the section 25 letter
of representation from the director of finance and those assurances, but whether there has
been work during the year, either taking Bronwyn's point entirely that internal audit is not
external audit, but presumably have done some work on the core financial systems that have
come through this committee before I join PAPs and there's a sort of a patchwork of
different bits of assurance and information that you've been party to during the year
that supports sort of slightly independently your confidence to be able to put pen on paper.
Because normally you'd have a very detailed external audit report, you'd have, you know,
there's a huge amount of reliance, an audit committee can chair, can place on that. That's
not, you haven't got that. So just leaving it with all greatest respect to a director
of finance, but normally you've had some independent assurance, so in the absence of that, what
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:58:36
are you, what are you going to access to, to supplement some of that information? Very
good question, and Dame could probably answer, but if the paper has to come back, if the
bring all of that detail with it to give the whole committee that shows.
But have you got something you want to respond to?
I've got a couple of points. I think, first of all,
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:58:55
as mentioned earlier by Caroline,
the annual governance statement should actually bring into account the statements
of internal control, the reliance on internal audit.
It does actually make reference to what external audits roles and
responsibilities are. The, if you like, role of the audit and governance committee,
in terms of what is reported, what actions are taken.
So that annual governance statements,
I remember when it was first introduced 15 years ago, whatever it was,
it was like a one paragraph. Now it's like 15 pages, you know,
it's grown and right and proper because you know, public sector funds, you know,
this is what it's all about. So, um,
there's an annual governance statements role. Uh,
there is the briefings that I have and started with the chair.
Um, let's undertake the post mortem or, you know, one is how did we miss it?
We need that. That'll reveal lessons.
How do we correct it and how do we make sure we don't do it moving forward?
So, you know the three parts and how I always try to solve something like this now there is national recognition
that the role of all the
bodies that was in place the former Order Commission and you know
NAO and all this type of all these organizations sit through and they're like and and a document did come out
just before Christmas about if you like the approach and
And, and, and, and also nice talks about that. So we've got a few words.
I mean, obviously you can sort of, you're closer to this than,
than probably I am,
how the world is moving and where we're moving to it. You know,
we're not in a position to give you a full briefing.
You will get a full briefing, but you want to give some highlights really of,
if, if, if, don't mind you on what that is looking like moving forward.
Yeah, I can do. Um, and, and it links in with that whole rebuilding pace,
Alistair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 1:00:40
which is which is crucial to you and your role as as overseeing governance of the organization and
Just just if I touch on the rebuilding first
because I said in December we didn't have the
The key understanding about what rebuilding looks like for us yet
And that's still the position and it is with the system leader
So the local audit system leader is the financial reporting council and it is with them to
to establish that guidance.
It's still with them.
I've had a meeting this morning with colleagues
at Forvis Mazars and we're still no nearer
getting that outcome as to what rebuilding looks like
in order for us to, as a firm, to issue our guidance
to our team so we can start those conversations
with you and with Damon.
So it's a watching brief,
which is a very unsatisfactory answer
and I'm not comfortable with that
because we're a little over,
a little under six weeks away from the end of 23 24 order and I need to be starting that 24 -5 conversations, but we are
recipients in that and that is the position
which links on to Damon's and points around the
It's called a statement of intent
it is also a consultation but very pointedly has been called a statement of intent and it was a publication from the
ministry of
MHCLG, the ministry, before Christmas, which was around local audit reform.
And it was to give the governments clear, I'll say it again,
statements of intent as to what they intend to do to resolve the local audit difficulties
that have transpired over a few periods now.
So that publication is something I will highlight to you
as being in the future, being a really key document,
because it'll drive changes in the world
that I operate in and impacts on you.
It sets out, I'm not gonna go through
in great detail for you, but it sets out six key areas
that the ministry wants to see reform over,
and I will read those rather than do them from memory,
because six is too many things for me to remember.
It sets out reforms on the purpose of local audit.
It is proposing to establish a local audit office.
If you think national audit office, change the first word,
it's the national audit office with a local audit focus
rather than a central government focus.
It's looking at reform around the accounts that you produce,
financial reporting and the accounts that you and
organisations produce.
Also, the capacity and capability
of both your finance teams and the system
within local authorities, but also audit capacity
and capability.
And it's looking at relationships and ultimately tackling
that local audit backlog.
So as Damon says, we'll, at an appropriate time,
we'll bring you something a little bit more detailed
that sets out what that looks like.
In terms of timeframe, it's looking like engagement through this calendar year with legislation next year
And the local audit office being established in late next year to be operational from the following year
So it's a probably a two -year window as you'll understand a lot would need to happen for all that not just legislatively
but organizationally, but it's helpful I think for you to see that direction of travel that
is planned and we'll come back and talk to you in more detail once we know a bit more
Che.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:04:27
Thank you for that. Rob, you had a point to make.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:04:30
It might be really helpful to circulate a bit of a presentation that Rosie Seymour did,
the Deputy Director at MLCLG at the LGA Finance Conference a couple of weeks ago and it sets
out and makes reference to what Alice has said but it also provides some really clear
useful information about the establishment of the local audit office but also what the
government is committed to do and what's actually open for consultation. I mean it's
aimed largely at English local authority councils but there will be a significant read across
into the CA world I'm sure but I'm sure you've got access to that is publicly
available but it was the 9th of January at the LGA finance conference from Rosie
Seymour but it's a really useful document to shed a bit of light and
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:05:24
background to this. Thank you so I mean could you make sure everyone gets a link to that please.
Thank you. Okay any other questions or comments on that particular agenda item?
Yes, Councillor LAM.
Yeah, thank you. Just two quick ones.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:05:40
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 1:05:41
One, just for completeness, can we be assured this is a one -off for last year
and the same mistake wasn't repeated in previous years?
And the second point was just to add, given it's quite a big scale mistake,
I wonder if it would be appropriate to include Councillor Anderson as Chair of Scrutiny alongside you
just so that there's an understanding of scrutiny of what's happened and why,
because there may be implications beyond this committee that need exploring.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:06:15
And I wonder if that's an appropriate addition to the...
Do you want to come back on that?
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:06:21
I think on both your points, I support, I think, in terms of finding out if it's a one -off,
that's part of the post -mortem, to make sure that we haven't repeated that for the previous years.
no, it was literally Friday afternoon.
So it's been work as we speak on, on this. Um,
and in terms of being included in scrutiny, I'd welcome that type of, um,
input. Thank you.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:06:43
Let me just to give the committee assurance,
even though I'm not giving assurance, but if I can give assurance, um,
Alistair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 1:06:51
having done my scan, um,
and very conscious that I signed an audit opinion, um, uh,
a little over a month ago on the 22 -3 accounts,
that same issue does not appear to be in the 22 -23 accounts.
I reassured myself that I didn't sign something
that was incorrect at that point in time.
If it's helpful for members as well,
just to kind of complete the loop on that
and just picking up the things around approval of accounts.
So just for clarity,
and this, I'm confident from what Damon said
that it will be resolved.
If it isn't resolvable and before the 28th of February, which is the deadline for audit opinions on this
Set of accounts. It's something that I'll draw attention to in my audit report
There isn't any further consequence from that it will be resolvable
subsequent to that and then corrected in future years and so it's not as though there is
There is no other way out from this. I'm confident it will be but just to
highlight to members that it's something because of the value of it. It would be something I'd have to refer to in my audit report
even though I'm disclaiming the audit opinion.
I know there's a material discrepancy in the accounts. I have to draw attention to that.
And the other thing just in terms of clarity of approval of accounts, again,
if the accounts need to come back to this meeting, and if that is for subsequent approval,
i .e. they haven't been signed because of the internal governance processes, that will be
after the 28th of February. So that will need Damon and I to work through the consequences
of that and who needs to report what to CLG because these are the statutory deadlines
that then there are consequences from missing those deadlines. So hopefully we're able to
resolve it, you're able to resolve it in a way that doesn't lead to that. But I just
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:08:46
that I'd highlight consequences to you so that you're really clear on that as a committee.
No, thank you and Caroline you can guide us, can you, in terms of how we can get that back
to the committee.
At the point at which we're in a position for the accounts to be brought forward for
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:08:59
approval, we would look to call an additional meeting of this committee to do that. We wouldn't
wait for our scheduled meeting.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:09:08
Okay, so if there are no further questions on that, can we just note
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:09:16
that the committee
has received the external auditor's opinion and we will bring the accounts back to this
committee once these matters have been looked into.
Thank you.

9 Draft Treasury Management Statement and General Reserves Strategy

Okay, so moving on to agenda item nine, that's the draft treasury management statements and
reserves strategy.
The committee has been invited to comment on the content of the strategy prior to their
inclusion within the budget paper which is going to be considered later this month, I
believe.
Sir Damon, is that you again?
Thank you.
Yeah, I think it's pretty standard practice.
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:09:49
So I think each year the Treasury Management Strategy has come to this committee and the
calculation of the general reserves balance.
And I've made reference since in the budget paper that's going to the CA that that all our reserves are
under review
Particularly now more than probably previous years and that's because
We've got a medium -term financial plan that we're really looking at the assumptions looking at how it integrates
How it reflects if you like the resources allocated for for the business planning
We're mindful that we're heading in the direction of a single settlement for the year after next.
But in terms of our reserves, general reserves level, it should always be based on some risk assessments.
And I'm bearing in mind that where the public sector is in terms of finances is getting more volatile to his commitments.
We don't know this year, you know, what announcements are going to be made.
So whilst I'm comfortable with the general reserves policy, if you look at the cross reference to the budget paper, it does say that this is part of that zero basin approach.
I'm working on starting earlier on the medium term financial plan.
It might reserve general reserves no stone unturned and so any comments that you that you may call on
The strategy and the general reserves policy I can then reflect
In the paper, but I've literally got a day to do so so any immediate feedback is great
Anything after that might not necessarily be reflected in papers as we publish them in the next day, so thank you
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:11:32
Thank you any questions or comments
It's, yeah, Councillor Lamm.
Yeah, it's a wider point, sir.
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 1:11:37
I think that the appropriate place for me
to make my comments on this are in the main board.
And a comment I've made,
issue I've raised repeatedly privately,
but I don't think I've raised it here,
is I think it's an odd situation
that the members that constitute this committee
are also members of the main board.
And I think it's something that needs looking at,
because effectively we're marking our own homework here.
and where to raise it, I don't know,
but it seemed an appropriate point,
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:12:09
and I think it's something that needs considering.
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 1:12:10
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:12:12
I quite agree in its conversations I've had with Bron,
and we've had just this morning actually,
trying to make sure that there is that separation
so that whoever sits on this committee
can give constructive, independent, impartial,
challenge to things, so I'm not sure
where it's gonna be picked up, but yeah, Alan?
Yeah
Alan Reiss, Chief Operating Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:12:35
We also have discussed this and I've discussed with Councillor Scullion as well
Absolutely recognize the issue and we are going to we are proposing to bring forward changes to the to how the committee is constituted in time
For the combined authorities AGM which meets in June
Thank you any other questions or comments on that paper
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:12:58
I've just got one general query. It's on 3 .7. It talks about it not being helpful to maintain
a high level of reserves given pressures on LAs. I didn't quite understand that.
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:13:31
Every risk register up and down the country and every authority will have financial sustainability

10 Risk Management

as the number one corporate strategic risk, certainly over the previous years. And there's
been approaches to using reserves and being mindful of the level of reserves that's being
held. So I think that comment was just in recognition of that. I'm not making or advocating
and any recommendation on that.
Fine, thank you.
And then same area, actually contracts and plan inflation.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:14:04
I'm just thinking that given the size of the capital scheme,
the reserves seem really low.
So is there a policy on what percentage you keep in terms of reserves?
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:14:15
So this gives a general reserves picture.
The earmarked reserves are in the budget paper and in the earmarked reserves,
we have an inflationary reserve to deal with the capital program,
particularly on transport schemes that have gone through the roof in terms of inflation.
And I make reference in that paper that it might not be adequate, but there's a review
on actually the capital programme to see the adequacy of that AMAT reserve. Each year several
million is actually moved from what we get interest on balances and our investments into
that reserve. So we've been building it. But as part of that zero base exercise, looking at the
the adequacy of reserves, we want to make sure that we're heading in the right direction.
And whilst it was set up and we believe it's the right and proper thing to do, we just
want to make sure that the right contributions and what the impact is.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Rob.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:15:08
Thanks, Chair.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:15:13
Obviously looking at this in isolation from the budget report and the wider perspective,
but my observation was the overall level of general reserves seemed low in the context
of it, but obviously with the other earmarked ones.

9 Draft Treasury Management Statement and General Reserves Strategy

I know obviously audit committees don't have the specific role in monitoring the budget
per se, but I just wondered whether access to that budget report and perhaps even a separate
briefing because setting the financial context of 24, 25, 25, 26, I think is important for
stresses on governance, what's capable, you know, it should link to the annual governance
review and a forward look in terms of where the pressures might be and the major projects
and programs.
So, whilst we would have a different role, understanding the financial context, I think,
would be useful.
and then it joins a few of these things up,
certainly from my perspective.
It's sort of looking things in somewhat isolation.
It'd be useful to have a few of the joining documents.
Don't do that.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:16:17
That's the briefing that we've scheduled, I think,
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:16:20
for March ahead of the April meeting on the budget
because we'll have had it finalized.
And then it gives everyone the opportunity
to actually understand the priorities
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:16:28
for the combined authority,
where the resources are, and the MTFB.
And also, it gives me an opportunity
to talk about the program of work that we're undertaking.
Thank you. Any other questions? No? Thank you. So note that the committee has considered

10 Risk Management

Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:16:46
this report. And if we can move on to agenda item 10, and that's the risk management paper.
So as stated before, we will consider and take questions on everything apart from appendix
five and the committee's got several matters to endorse here the roles and
responsibilities the staff in relation to risk management the development of
risk appetite categories and ratings as per the orange book the placement
decision -making framework and also a revised format for the corporate risk
register I appreciate it was quite a significant paper this one and so I'm
I'm going to look to you, Caroline, to try and pull out the really key points because
I've read it several times, but I'm just very aware that I may have missed some key points
and I'm sure other committee members may well do, too.
Thank you, Chair.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:17:44
And I suppose I think on reflection, being sitting here to speak to this report today,
I think we've just tried to do too much with this paper.
I recognize that and I will, you know, we will look in terms of future papers to actually
be much more succinct so that the key issues that members need to be aware of are more
easily addressed.
There is also – the report went through a few iterations and with apologies, there
are some cross -references in the report which aren't correct and you'll have had in
in front of you for transparency, a little table put on,
a piece of paper in front of you
with the correct cross -references.
So apologies for that as well.
One of the things we are proposing,
we've heard, we're going to be keeping this committee
very busy because we are proposing a risk workshop as well.
Really to start, some of this is better done
through conversation and questions and answers
in an informal setting to actually to drill through
approach the areas which are important for this
committee to enable it to carry out its role. So
there may be areas I think that we've tried to
address in this report with which I think with
hindsight and say actually it it's it's useful
background. It's useful reading, but actually
we'll put we'll press pause on that and one area
is perhaps the risk appetite statement. I think
there's so much in that we sort of say helpful
context in terms of where we're going. We aren't
there yet anyway as as an office as an officer
the level that would be something that we'd really look to pick up in the workshop. So I'll try and focus in on on the key things for the committee at this point, but obviously we've put it out there.
And, you know, I will take questions on any part of it. So I think the first thing the report tries it seeks to do, it shares back with the committee at Appendix one, the risk management strategy development plan.
We have brought that to the committee before.
Again, that's a context document to say, actually,
what are the steps we are working through,
and where are we on that journey?
And the first part of the report here
actually looks at the work that's
been undertaken between October and December
in terms of that maturity assessment and evaluation
phase.
And what that's meant in reality is a number of workshops
that our risk and compliance manager has carried out
with senior managers and also separate workshops
that he's held with directors and above
in terms of looking at where are we,
what's our approach currently in terms of risk.
And he's also done an e -survey across those levels
and he's taken all of the information
that he's gleaned from that and he will pull that together
in terms of what does that mean, okay,
Where are the gaps? Where are we at the moment? What training support toolkits do we need to help individuals and teams?
So that really, I suppose, granular information gathering exercise has happened during that period,
and the team are taking that away to actually look at those next steps as part of that risk management strategy.
key part of that will be this risk workshop that and it's really keen to do with this committee and focusing really on that and how do we enable you to hold and offices and you know the organization to account and around risk so that that workshop will be used to delve more deeply into that so I think that's that's the first part of this report is just say
It's just bringing the committee up to date, say actually we brought we introduced this strategy. We are underway with it
This is where we are in terms of that first phase
of doing so
This the second thing as
the second part of the report then looks at how we use how we align with
The ISO standard how we utilize what's known as the orange book to those in the trade?
It was new to me, but I now know that term and what it means.
How do we use some of these tools, these industry -wide tools out there, to help us with this next
stage in terms of setting risk appetite in our approach?
There are some appendices there that have some more detailed information.
For me, I'm going to leave it at that stage at the moment.
I think this is basically saying we are on a journey with how we do that, and work is
I think I'd be asking you to note where we are on that because I don't think we're in
a position really to seek that endorsement.
So in terms of the recommendation 2 .3, I would ask the committee to note where we are with
that, recognizing that we will have continued discussions with this committee and we will
in different forums for doing that.
So that is quite a big chunk, and it's
really helpful information in terms of risk appetite.
It's really helpful background information,
but it is perhaps a little impenetrable as part
of the committee report.
I note that.
Moving on from risk appetite, we then
have a section from paragraph 3 .27
onwards, which is still part of our journey,
But it's saying okay roles and responsibilities for risk management. Let's lever these out in terms of our and
right the way from member involvement through to all staff and
This is something that's been tested, you know at officer level through the workshops
And he's been written it brought to this committee
Certainly for views from the committee
endorsement if the committee feels they're able to in terms of saying what part of those roles play in terms of that
wider risk management responsibility. It may be the committee of fields that you just want to note that again at this stage.
But it I think it is certainly as an internal tool is helpful to us to say actually if you are a head of service
what's the expectation of you in that role if you are a manager and a team leader and
and for all those areas, actually draw out that transparency, because that will really help us as we look to embed our approach to risk management.
The report then moves on to the corporate risk register. That's sections 3 .29 onwards in the report.
And we have two versions of the two view versions.
And I appreciate it's what these things are always quite difficult in terms of the size
of it to actually see, especially if you're on a small screen rather than a big screen.
I recognize that myself.
Appendix four is a redacted version of the corporate risk register.
So there are certain controls which for sensible security reasons aren't in the published version.
And appendix five is a confidential view of that, which does have more of that information
in it for members.
I think this is a view version, and what the report says at paragraph 334 is that there
are an awful lot of other columns, a lot of other information within that risk register.
So there's a whole set of bullet points of info which isn't on that view that you have
at the moment, which has been hidden from that view, but is there.
And for those of you that were able to join the private session we had, I think after
the October CA meeting, we went through some of this on the screen.
One of the questions in the report is, is the information that we're providing in that
corporate risk register snapshot sufficient for this committee?
Is there other information that the committee would like to see as part of that view?
Do you feel like that's that condensed view gives you?
That correct line of sight of this so I'd welcome welcome that approach. I think the
Report goes up explains
Talks through some of those changes that we looked at in that private workshop
So how we've moved to controls and further controls so you will have a risk will be assessed in terms of the existing set of
Controls and what are the assurances with how that those controls? What do they look like in practice?
How can we evidence that we have those controls and then as you move across the risk register, there are further controls identified
Which of them which are the ones yet to be?
Embedded once they are they will move to the other column
So we're continuing to develop the corporate risk register.
We have – it is much more detailed than it was previously in terms of those controls
and that ownership, and that is reviewed on a monthly basis by our performance board and
will also go up to our strategic leadership board.
But I think the question for this committee is does this give you the information that
need in that risk register or is there missing information which we need to bring forward
for future occasions.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:27:34
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:27:34
So I shall pause there, Chair, but very happy to take any questions.
Thank you for that.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:27:37
Dave, you've got a question.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:27:43
Just to respond to the question on the contents of the corporate risk register and what it
includes or not, I think it seems to include a little bit more than suggested in the report,
I think it's good and I wouldn't take anything out of that.
I think it's a good picture.
There's two things I think you probably could do with it.
One is a very simple one, which is the review overdue flag.
I think that's an important one to have in there,
to flag up anything that hasn't been reviewed when expected.
The other one, which I suspect is because it's work in progress,
is the overall target appetite, the rating we're trying to get to.
I think that's really critical because you've then got a set of high
or very high risks in there that we're told not to worry about.
without where we're trying to get to, I think it's difficult to have that context.
Yes, you're quite correct. The first one we can easily do, the second
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:28:28
one is where
this next piece of work will take us to, because you're right, without that you've only got
a partial picture.
Can I take Alan and then Rob? Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:28:44
Cllr Alan Lamb Leeds City Council - 1:28:45
Thank you chair. I think you're right to acknowledge there's an awful lot going on here and in my 18 years as an elected member one of the rules I've developed is the bigger the report the more suspicious I should be.
So when it's a big report I really start to dig in and think there was nothing particularly to make me suspicious I have to say other than there's a lot.
And it's a bit, the challenge, my point is really more recommendation or suggestion going forward.
Because it's difficult in this committee, we've got some people very expert around the table looking at this kind of thing.
I can speak for myself but I wouldn't call myself an expert but I've developed my knowledge
over time of looking at things like this and where to look.
But it's a bit like driving a car that I'm never quite, I know how to drive now to fill
up the petrol and the screen wash and things, at a push I could change a tyre.
But when the lights start flashing at me I'm never quite sure whether the indicator's faulty
or what the indicator is indicating is the problem.
And I feel a bit the same way sometimes about looking at these things.
And so my suggestion is going forwards,
I think there's just too much to get into in a session like this.
And a workshop approach would be useful, perhaps to help with understanding
where you can ask more simplistic questions.
but it just feels to me that if I was to ask every question I had on this we'd be here
for days frankly and it's not because I think there's something alarming, I just want to
clarify that I've understood it properly and I'd be doing that a lot on this.
So maybe that's something we can use the workshop for isn't it?
Yes, totally acknowledge that.
Thank you. Rob?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:30:49
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:30:53
Thanks chair, similar to Councillor Lam. There's a bit of a tsunami of information isn't there when you have a risk register in this format.
So my appeal would be through the workshop to develop something that was easier on the
eye.
I worked in risk management a long time and the spreadsheet format just does not work
in the context of this and little screens.
So developing something that is a risk on a page and you can just look at one thing
at one point, like Alan, there's a number of things that I'd question about additional
information, you know, who's doing the actions, when they're going to be, how do we know if
it's going to be effective, the appetite definitely will be what David said. So if there's that
risk workshop, I think the next evolution of this can hopefully be a little bit more
suitable for this committee. As a general point, I don't like the phrase on a journey,
but it feels as if this is a journey that's going at the speed of light and I'd just be
concerned about how practical going from very little or fairly unsophisticated to trying
to get all this in, whether that is actually achievable and sustainable. Now obviously
you can get assurances from management that it is, it's understood and everybody's compliant
with the processes. A few of us have probably been around, note these sorts of things where
there's that initial enthusiasm but to sustain the input to it, to make sure it remains credible
and has data integrity take some effort and I think there's something I'd want assurance
that it's a nice slow step to get it properly embedded and integrated before we went very
giddy and having all sorts of extra information and reports and things. What matters is what
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:33:07
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:33:07
works and I just worry that this was a bit too much, a bit too soon, a bit too quick.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:33:12
But it's great stuff. It's just how it gets implemented.
I think Tim wants to come in. Do you want to come back and ask her something?
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:33:22
I think just to echo, I think we've had the same reflections have been coming through on an officer level as well as a member level.
and that recognition that actually we just need
to slow this down a little bit, build on the basics,
and embed that and just continue to move forward
because that's incredibly important,
but just ensure that we're doing it at a pace
which we can take the organization with us.
So even looking to present this today,
was just like it's too formidable. So yes, I hear what the committee is saying and we
will definitely take that away because it resonates. So thank you.
Thank you. Tim.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:34:12
Thank you, Chair. Maybe just a few views from both an officer
Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:34:16
relatively new to this process
because I've only joined the CA three months ago but also somebody who actually owns a
of these risks on the corporate register.
I'd certainly endorse them for the points that have been made so far, both in terms
of the target rating, I think that's important that we describe our aspirations of where
each individual risk should be.
Overdue risk but also timeliness of the implementation of controls is really important relative to
the nature of the further control that is being developed.
And in particular, my experience tells me that where those are either too ambitious,
so you put a date in or a delivery where it's just not achievable, or indeed that date keeps
getting moved.
And again, that is an indication of itself that either activity isn't happening in a
timely manner or we've just been in unrealistic in our ability to deliver the changes.
I would also agree in terms of kind of simplified review, give us information which describes
in a way which is engaging for both members and for officers too, but to the point that
other people have made, this will only work if it is consistently embedded across the
organisation and it becomes used as a tool within management conversations, part of the
governance structure that we've talked about earlier, and those conversations take place
on a regular basis and that's where it works and actually then becomes useful for this
committee to ask questions of. Thank you, Chair.
No, thank you for that point. My observation on reading it was I got the feeling that risk
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:35:46
management is being pushed down through the organization, which is absolutely right, and
I suppose my only observation on that is that we then don't lose the corporate picture,
so that everybody's just doing things in silos that sort of impacts or risks that might manifest
in one area that maybe don't meet the risk placement decision -making framework criteria
don't end up in the corporate risk register, but actually it says a risk across all directorates.
So, yeah, that was my observation on it. Just don't lose that rolled up bigger picture in
terms of risk.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:36:25
That's a fair observation, Chair, and there is a piece of work underway to look at that
as well. So one example is where similar risks are flagged up across different projects.
You know, projects and programs will always, I suppose, flag resource. You know, resource
and budget may well be too. So how do we actually have one set of controls for some of these
more, you know, maybe bespoke controls as well, but some standardized controls that
are then just sitting all the projects and programs, and how do we then reflect that
and perhaps on the corporate risk register.
So I think that has been identified
where we're getting maybe consistent themes coming across
and how do we show that.
Good point.
Thank you, that's good,
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:37:11
because individually they may not be of a scale
to appear anywhere and collectively they may well be.
Yeah, thank you.
So we'll, oh sorry, Dave.
Sorry, Rob.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:37:25
Something for the workshop, not now,
but to perhaps contemplate how governance themes can be linked to the risks and actions
which then enable those sort of common themes across different risks, different parts of
the organisation to be collected that form a different view and perspective that exactly
your point, Chair, about ensuring that there is a sort of linkage across the organisation
that an issue in one part could be very similar to an issue somewhere else, and if they can
be joined by some sort of terminology, it creates a very powerful bit of information
that can be used more corporately than just in those sort of silo areas, but I'd say
it's a risk workshop discussion thing.
One final point, I guess, with these things, my experience is one thing that helps people
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:38:28
through these and helps people navigate these is the color scheme,
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:38:29
what it should do.
So you know, focus on the red things, you know, less worried about the green, the blue,
whatever would want to be used.
On this one, so it's a little bit more difficult because they're all red or they're orange.
Now that's, we wanted two things I guess.
One is it could be that we're not there yet in terms of what our risk appetite needs to
and whether that's appropriate or not,
whether it should be worried about those or not.
The other thing I didn't see in here,
anything very specific on how we were defining
the range and likelihoods from very likely to very unlikely
and equally the impact from insignificant to critical.
So that's not consistent and not tailored
to the organization.
You might end up everybody thinking things are critical
or serious, especially in different areas.
That can be very different things.
Equally, somebody's interpretation of likely or very likely
might be very different to somebody else's.
So I think that needs to be part of whatever we discuss.
So we're clear on that.
So it may be that if everybody has a clear view on this,
actually some of these are yellow and blue,
whatever they might be, and we can then navigate
and focus on the red versus the others.
Clearly may well be that they're all red.
But I think unless we're clear on that,
it's not gonna help people navigate through it.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:39:43
Any other comments, questions on the observations?
Just in terms of timing for some of these workshops because this feels
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:39:57
like a fairly
important one to help frame what might flow through in subsequent months.
So, I mean, I know we'll give a date now, but presumably is this one that could be sort
of a bit sooner rather than later?
Yeah, lovely.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:40:23
Okay, so if you can just note that we have considered all those areas, and we will look
forward to receiving the date for the workshop and, yeah, hopefully we can endorse the decisions
on that at a later committee meeting.

11 Compliance and Monitoring Report

So final agenda item is agenda item 11, which is a compliance and monitoring report.
And Caroline, I think that's back to you again.
Thank you.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:40:45
It is, Chair, and I suppose this does come – I mean, there's been some really rich
discussion at this meeting, I think, which is really helpful for us as officers to take
away.
And part of the earlier discussion, I think it was when Rob was talking about looking
at how we bring that compliance information back, not just across the organization, but
much more at a directorate level.
What is it telling us about that approach?
I think that's really something that we can look to.
I think this particular report is probably the report that needs to change, you know,
quite significantly to get us to that point.
And that is something that we've already identified internally.
I think we've just done a priority approach as to the internal governance changes first
and then sort of the compliance aspects were to come forward, just managing internal capacity
for that.
But we have the report and the dashboard here are in a format that members are familiar
with that we look to introduce.
I think it was, I didn't say it last year, but we're into 25 now, so it probably was
It was summer 23 when we started doing this.
And again, I think, you know, we need to get it to a stage which becomes more meaningful to this committee in terms of being able to challenge and being able to interrogate,
being able to look more effectively at trends.
So I introduced the report, I suppose, with that caveat that we recognize we aren't there yet with this.
We need this further work to be done.
But in terms of the report itself, and I should deal with the governance aspects,
I'm just looking over to Damon in terms of the financial part of the report to speak to that.
But we have the dashboard here.
I think in terms of we've sought to pull out some of the key indicators in the report.
I suppose for me in terms of the digital and technology services, just noteworthy, I think
the increase of attempted malware attacks that we've had this year, we were 128 in the
last financial year.
This year we're already up to 350 attempted attacks.
None of them successful so far.
That is the key bit of information, but I do touch wood, given that significant rise in attempts there.
I think in terms of health and safety, I suppose the key win for us recently has been the reopening of Bradford Interchange.
We've briefed this committee and the CA, the transport committee have followed this very closely in the past,
but that was reopened at the beginning of this month which was a key step forward.
And internal, I suppose the other one for me to flag was internal
audits. We've looked, we've talked quite a little bit about the assurance reports,
but there has only been one limited or minimal assurance report this year compared to ten in
total last year. So I suppose in terms of the scale of where we are at the moment that's probably just
worth me drawing out. But it may be that members have got other points that they wish to raise
in terms of the compliance dashboard and the detail in that. So I shall pause for any questions
and then after that perhaps chair hand over to Damon in terms of the financial part of
this report.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:44:24
Thank you. So have you got any questions on the initial part of the report?
No. I've just got one, Caroline. That was on the declarations of interest returned within
28 days, the figure in there, which is not so good. It's dropped, hasn't it? And I just
wondered what is done when, in terms of addressing that, if members don't return those promptly,
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:44:56
and practically we work very closely with the monitoring my counterparts in the local
authorities and their democratic services to get that wider encouragement for members
to complete them. And so it's, you know, I suppose it's taken forward on a one -on -one
basis through our counterparts.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:45:21
And then other than that we're just relying on people to declare things in a meeting.
Yes.
Caroline Norreys, Assistant Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:45:30
Ultimately it is the personal responsibility of the member.
So we do everything we can to encourage and support.
So our governance committee manager will sit down with members.
if this is something that's new to the morale particular form and actually talk it through
question by question, so we do provide that support as well. I think for some members
it's maybe an issue of time and I'll get round to it, so we work with the persuasion of our
local authorities.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:46:03
Thank you, because that transparency is quite key isn't it really?
Yes.
Thank you. So no other questions on that, we'll pass over to Dan for the financial piece.
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:46:12
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:46:13
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:46:14
Yes, yeah, I'd just like to point something out,
and it might be obvious to everyone
who's on different committees.
We have the report that goes to the
Finance and Resources Committee
that shows a monitoring position.
I've got a budget paper that's going to the
combined authority that shows the position,
and then there's an extract here at Q2.
So if you did a read across from one to another,
depending on the time in and out,
they've been updated, they might not all be
all at the same page.
I can give you assurance that in terms of
the revenue account for and our latest virtually Q3 monitoring information that's out this
week and last week from my perspective. We're going to deliver the budget so that our forecast
position, it doesn't actually show a forecast position in 3 .7, 3 .8. Maybe I can work on
that in the future in terms of reporting because it's sometimes when you see a snapshot, you
don't get the full picture of budget variances and budget profiling. A forecast position
is always something I'm looking at and being concerned about.
Because we did draw down some EMI reserves
for Bradford Interchange that was just mentioned before,
about three million.
So I'm confident that we will deliver
the revenue budget for this year.
And that if you look at the CA papers,
you'll see that I'm reporting that message in that report.
In terms of the capital programme,
and I think again, it's probably moving forward,
which I think a fuller picture because it gives a snapshot
as a house to spend profile in to date.
But we've been working behind the scenes quite hard now
that we've got some additional resources to re -profile,
to look at the capital programme on delivery terms.
So that picture of percentage delivery,
I'm not quite sure exactly what message that's given
until I've looked at every scheme in detail
and looked at the profile in every scheme.
Is it on track or not?
it might be 100 % on track, but it's, but in the cold light today,
when you look at it,
it doesn't show that because it's not been profiled in this report.
So it's just a plea really just give me a bit more time to get some consistency
across the, across the patch. In terms of the capital programme itself,
we have a, um, uh,
a new appointment as a director on the capital programme in transport. Uh,
and, and one of his real, you know, urgent, urgent tasks is,
he's looking at all all these programmed areas and we're doing the same in
finance. So I think you'll get a richer picture,
but there's nothing that really jumps out at this point of concern in this
snapshot picture. Thank you, chair.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:48:49
Thank you. That's really showing.
And I think having the position against the forecast will be really useful.
Thank you. Any questions? Yes, Rob.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:48:59
Thanks, just one thing that occurs to me,
Damon and forgive me if other colleagues know this, are any of the funds time
limited and therefore non delivery of them put some resource in at risk because
obviously that would be something to to draw out for our attention if there's
any of that that sort of time limited pressure? I can make sure that that's in
Damon Lawrenson (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:49:22
future report it's a question we ask ourselves especially when we got a
pressing deadline at 31st of March there are one or two and I've been
assurance that the delivery program will catch up and deliver so we don't want to
be in the position to hand back funds so that's the objective however I think
what you're requesting is something that'd be really useful actually in this
Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:49:46
report so just ask as obviously it can throw up some governance issues
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:49:49
of speed
of decisions and link back to the delegations and how quickly things can
move and there's that temptation or risk that certain procedures are circumvented to make
sure that funding is maximised and you start to unravel some of the governance that you
can put in place. I'm not saying that would happen but it's that sort of pressure point
that can exist in those sorts of chasing the money.
Thank you. Tim?
Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:50:16
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:50:18
Tim Taylor Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:50:18
Just very briefly if I can, if Robin answered your question, yes there are. So some of the
listed in here are very much time bound, but for reasons you've just described. That's
why Simon, the Executive Director for Transport, and his new appointment are applying a new
approach to management of that capital programme to ensure we don't perpetuate some of the
challenges that are described.
Thank you. Any other questions, comments? No, thank you. So can we
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:50:47
note then that the

12 Date of the Next Meeting

Information has been received and considered. Thank you
And so that's the last public agenda item. We're now going to move to a closed session to consider
unexpised from a gender item 10 and
The date of the next meeting will be the 28th of April 2025
Thank you, everybody