Climate, Energy and Environment Committee - Tuesday 26 November 2024, 2:00pm - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Climate, Energy and Environment Committee
Tuesday, 26th November 2024 at 2:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  2. Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero
  5. Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero
  6. John Clark (Private Sector Representative)
  7. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  8. Mr Jason WIllis (Northern Gas Networks)
  9. Oluwafemi Omoniyi (Officer, West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  11. Mr Vincent McCabe
  12. Peter Glover, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  13. Guilherme Rodrigues Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency)
  15. David Owumi (Private Sector Representative)
  16. Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative)
  17. Cllr Katie Dye (Leeds City Council)
  18. Myles Larrington, Committee Services Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  19. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  20. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
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  1. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  2. Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership)
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  1. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  2. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  3. Guilherme Rodrigues Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  2. Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. John Clark (Private Sector Representative)
  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  6. Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. John Clark (Private Sector Representative)
  8. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  9. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  10. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  11. Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency)
  12. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  13. Cllr Sarah Ferribly (Bradford Council)
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  1. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  2. Guilherme Rodrigues Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Leah Stuart (Private Sector Representative)
  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
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  1. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  2. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
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  1. Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  2. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  6. Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council
  7. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  8. Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership)
  9. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  10. Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative)
  11. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  12. Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero
  13. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  14. Leah Stuart (Private Sector Representative)
  15. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  16. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  17. Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  2. Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Cllr Katie Dye (Leeds City Council)
  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  6. Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership)
  7. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  8. Cllr Jack Hemingway (Wakefield Council)
  9. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  10. Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero
  11. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  12. Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  13. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  14. Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency)
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  1. Rob Tranmer, Officer West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  2. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  5. Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency)
  6. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  7. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  8. Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency)
  9. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  10. Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council
  11. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  12. Cllr Jack Hemingway (Wakefield Council)
  13. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  14. Cllr Katie Dye (Leeds City Council)
  15. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  16. Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership)
  17. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  18. Rob Tranmer, Officer West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  19. Mr Vincent McCabe
  20. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  21. Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency)
  22. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  23. Oluwafemi Omoniyi (Officer, West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
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  1. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  2. Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative)
  3. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  4. Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative)
  5. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  6. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  7. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  8. Cllr Sarah Ferribly (Bradford Council)
  9. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  10. Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership)
  11. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  12. Cllr Jack Hemingway (Wakefield Council)
  13. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  14. Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council
  15. John Clark (Private Sector Representative)
  16. John Clark (Private Sector Representative)
  17. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  18. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  19. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  20. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  21. Mr Jason WIllis (Northern Gas Networks)
  22. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  23. Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council
  24. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
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  1. Noel Collings, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  3. Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative)
  4. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  5. Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council
  6. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  7. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  8. Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council)
  10. Webcast Finished

you
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:00:55
So dunno IOKI, just ignore it for self - liberation blob.
That's all, just ignore all those for self - liberation.
Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:01
To bring me to order. Thank you chair. So I'm Liz Hunter, the director of policing environment and place
And this is a good opportunity for me to say that we use the microphones for the live streaming
So that the camera can pan to you
And
Yes, you can tell I've been off because I've forgotten how to use these things
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:01:23
May I introduce a special guest a visitor today? I'll let him say something about himself and his role
But this is Selman Brown and he's the Director for Domestic Net Zero Buildings at the Department
of Energy Security and Net Zero.
So you're very welcome Selman.
Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero - 0:01:41
Thank you.
I do feel like a bit of an interloper.
So I run the regulations and policy and the domestic homes programmes like the Social
Housing Fund back in the department.
But obviously you do all the work.
I'm delighted to be here today.
Thank you.
Councillor Sarah Ferriby from Bradford Council.
Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero - 0:02:04
John Clark (Private Sector Representative) - 0:02:07
John Clark, I'm a private sector representative and I work for Cummings.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 0:02:12
Gideon Richards, President and sector member. I work for Consulting with Purpose Limited.
Hi everyone, my name is Adam Ashman. I'm an advisory representative from Yorkshire Water.
Mr Jason WIllis (Northern Gas Networks) - 0:02:25
Hi, Jason Morris, advisory representative from Northern Gas Networks.
Oluwafemi Omoniyi (Officer, West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:32
Afternoon everyone, Femio Manini, net zero, object manager, West Yorkshire Combined Authority.
Good afternoon, my name is Jess McNeil and I'm head of Home Energy
Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:02:42
West Yorkshire at the Combined Authority.
Mr Vincent McCabe - 0:02:46
Hi, I'm Tim McCabe, I'm the Green Economy Lead at the Combined Authority.
Peter Glover, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:02:54
Hello Peter Glover from the research team at the combined authority.
Guilherme Rodrigues Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:00
Guy Rodriguez also from the research team from the combined authority.
Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency) - 0:03:05
Good afternoon my name is Jenny Cook from the Environment Agency.
David Owumi (Private Sector Representative) - 0:03:12
Good afternoon Martin Broadus from the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership.
Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative) - 0:03:16
Good afternoon Richard Goodfellow, private sector representative and partner at Adelshaw
Goddard LLP solicitors. I'm their global head of energy.
Councillor Jack Hemingway, Deputy Leader, Wayfield Council.
Cllr Katie Dye (Leeds City Council) - 0:03:33
Councillor Katie Dye from Leeds. Miles Irish and Committee Services Officer.
Myles Larrington, Committee Services Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:03:37
Noel Collings, Policy Manager for Net Zero and Energy here at the West George
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:03:42
compound authority. Thank you. Leah. I'm Leah Stewart from Civic
I'm a private sector representative. Sorry, I'm late.
And I don't think you're the only one we have been warned.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:03:57
Right, okay. Let's press on then with the business of the agenda.
Apologies first of all.

1 Apologies for Absence

We've had apologies from Jane Atkinson, deputy chair from Infinium.
And I've just note for the minutes well done to Infinium for being recently nominated for an award.
So I'm sorry she's not here to congratulate her in person.
Councilor Minir Ahmad from Kirklees Council, Councilor Jenny Kent from City of York Council,
Jim Cardwell from Northern Power Grid, Neil Wally, but of course Jason You're substituting
for him, and Ian Holmes from the Integrated Care Board.
And as I say, Councilor Patient is likely to be about 10 minutes.
He just rung me from the train.
Okay, can we press on to the main agenda in terms of declaration of disclosable pecuniary
interests?
Welcome, Council patient.
And I want to start, before you, Gideen, if I may, which is that I have a disclosable,
indeed pecuniary and other kinds of interests in the item on the agenda in relation to flooding,
because as you will know in the colder valley we had a very very near miss on
Saturday I myself was flooded but only 18 inches in the cellar so I intend to
remain in the meeting during that discussion thank you Gideon yeah just to
let you know that University of Bradford are doing some development work for me
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 0:05:38
under the sibling S &E funding which is through the West George Combined Authority.

2 Declaration of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership) - 0:05:51
My employer Connect Housing is one of the partners in the solar panel and battery storage project that's being supported by the Combined Authority
and also in a personal capacity I'm also taking part in the solar purchasing scheme.
Thank you. MDLs for interests.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:06:09
Bicunary or close to your heart kinds.
No? Okay. Thank you for that.
Exempt information, possible exclusion of the press and public.
There are no items on this agenda,
which mean the exclusion of the press and the public.
If I could move on then to item four,
minutes of the meeting held on the 30th of July.
Any comments on those folks?
Any corrections?
Leah?
Only that I did send my apologies beforehand.
Julie noted.
Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:06:47
Okay, let's go straight on to the main business of the meeting.
And we'll start, as we often do with the monitoring indicators,
in terms of just getting a sense of where we are with some of the things we've set ourselves.
And it's pages 11 to 34 in this report.
And
Guy, is Guy here? Oh, hello.
Guilherme Rodrigues Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:07:17
So, so good afternoon.
So as you are aware, we update you with the grid indicators when data is new and
we have new information.
new information and insights on this and this time we have data on energy efficiency of our dwellings EPC our estimates on fuel poverty
deployment of EV infrastructure access to green areas and
premises at risk of flooding so in terms of

5 Monitoring Indicators

Energy efficiency the data is analyzed by on s using the deluxe data as of March 2024 and we do observe an
improvement, so 42 % of dwellings are identified of an EPCC or above, up of 39%.
The increase itself is in line with England average, but England's it's above
us. So we progress at the same rate, but around 50 % at the national England's
average as an EPCC or above. And we do have all local authorities
underperforming in that front. In terms of dwellings classified as new, the vast
majority of them as expected perform EPCC or above, but that said we still
underperform a bit the England's average, which ONS doesn't provide
information, it's very likely to be around conversions and things like that
that sometimes are not able to to be within EPCA, B or C, but they are
classified in the data sets as new.
In terms of fuel poverty, our estimates do not take
into account the winter fuel payment at the moment.
We are trying to get a way of estimating that.
But even excluding it, our estimates show fuel poverty rate
of 27%, it's still above, despite the minor improvement
of the levels observed in October 2021, which was 23%,
and also above England's average. In terms of EV charging infrastructure it
keeps increasing as expected the last data from summer 2024 July shows an
increase but at a slower pace than a national average and the number of
charging points also below the national average but in terms of fast and rapid
charging points public ones we are in line with the national average so that's
positive news. In terms of access to local green space, this definition is
very specific so it's people living within 300 meters of a natural green
space with at least two actors and because of this definition the results
sometimes surprise people. We have around one fifth of the population with access
with Leeds having the highest rate of people with access to green space and
is the lowest. Using this definition we are below South Yorkshire and Liverpool
and in line with larger CAs as Greater Manchester and West Midlands.
The premises at risk of flooding we had a little typo in the report so instead of
3 % report is 3 .6 % so rounded to 4 % the the number of residential premises in a
float zone type two and around 1 % of float zone type three.
The geography of it, it's quite asymmetric
with colder realizing the highest rate
and Bradford the lowest one.
The commercial premises at risk of flooding
tend to have higher rates than the residential ones
of 13 % and 5 % for type two and type three respectively.
Sorry, and that's all.
Thank you, Guy. Any particular comments or questions or observations?
Adam.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:11:09
Thanks again for the information and data. I wonder if we might see some targets in terms
of out to 2038, what's the pathway look to 2038? I know over the last couple of meetings
we talked about a number of initiatives. What's the incremental gain from the initiatives?
Is that enough? Is it not enough? There are some of the bits of information I'd like to see next time.
Thank you.
Thank you. I don't know if Liz will know if you want to come back on that at all.
Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:11:45
Thank you, really good question and certainly when we get to the flooding paper
it's one of the things that we were trying to grapple with is, as you rightly say, there's a number of interventions going in but
just how does that actually change the number of businesses or homes that are impacted?
and maybe when we come to that we can give a bit more detail to know we're
also working with the environment agency to try and clarify that. I think the
challenge often is is that sometimes we are reducing the number of properties
in which are at risk but obviously there are more properties being at risk
because the flood risk is increasing. But that's exactly the kind of conversation
and there's some data in the paper so let's cover that in terms of in terms of
flooding. I think you're I think if you then apply that to some of the other
areas we used to be talking about. Again on retrofit we are trying to get a plan
together in terms of what does the what does the plan particularly for social
homes look like and when we get to Jess's paper we can talk about that. So I
think for each of the areas we are trying to get a set of trajectories to
go okay so if that is where we want to be what does that what does that look
like but it's a really good challenge and a helpful one because it's what
we're trying to do I don't think we're there on all of them but we are trying to do that.
Thank you and when we get to item 10 I think we'll pick up some of these issues as well and
in terms of progress on the plan.
John.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:12:56
John Clark (Private Sector Representative) - 0:12:59
In the report about electrical vehicle charging,
you mentioned in there about the differences
between West Yorkshire and other regions.
One of the ones he noticed was in the West Midlands
of how nearly 1 ,000 on -street electric charging points
have been installed, which was almost an order
of magnitude higher than what's in West Yorkshire.
And I wondered, are they doing something differently?
Are they taking a different approach?
Do you have any comments as to why
that's so different to what we're seeing?
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:13:30
Who wants to pick up that one from the officers?
It's a good question.
Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:13:38
We have got James, but he's not sat at the table.
So maybe we could, unless he wants to join us,
maybe we could come back to you on that,
particularly in terms of the West Midlands.
I think it's really interesting, the comparison.
and we are trying to learn lessons from other places.
I think some of it is to do with funding.
I think some of it is to do with having the procurement process
in place, which we now have, as the report talks about.
But let's pick that up and maybe write down
to the committee with some details about the West
Midlands in particular.
Thank you.
John Clark (Private Sector Representative) - 0:14:09
I think it's just if they've done something differently,
that we could learn from, we should do.
Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:14:14
And we had some useful discussions in another forum
this morning really about how you meet those challenges and how those
challenges are already changing and developing over the next few years.
I'm going to take Gideon and then Sarah.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 0:14:35
Thank you for that. On the chart on page 15, the 13 % of commercial properties in West Yorkshire fall within the flood zone, rising to 28 in
I appreciate this is close to your heart.
I was just wondering if there's any way of putting a people number against that.
So how many employees could be affected by that?
Because that will make a big difference to, like if it's big business and that gets affected,
then it can affect a lot of other things on the way through with it.
So I was just wondering if there's any way of actually finding out those kinds of numbers.
Thank you.
I'm going to come to to Jenny on that actually because it's been
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:15:12
something in terms of the environment agency in the way in which we
look at residential numbers and properties affected and property level resilience and
the question of how you calculate some of those commercial properties in the impact on the local economy the devastating impact of the
Flooding on the local economy as well as on the local environment Jenny anything to say on that
My colleague next to me looked like he was about to lean in as well.
Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency) - 0:15:41
So just very briefly on the, yeah, under the Green Book, under the multi -coloured manual,
it helps obviously those that are familiar with it.
It helps you to articulate what the economic damages are associated
with the non -residential property flooding and the wide impacts of flooding.
So that absolutely is a way of capturing that.
In our local flood defense schemes, that is part of the economic case
that supports the investment in that area.
And so absolutely can be articulated
Thank you and Sarah
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:16:12
Yes, thank you for the report
Cllr Sarah Ferribly (Bradford Council) - 0:16:15
I'm just wondering about the building and energy efficiency in the EPC rating
And you did say that marginal decline could be maybe contributed to by the conversions

6 Home Energy West Yorkshire

I mean obviously a new build is entirely different to a conversion and I just wondered is the way of
extrapolating the difference between something that's totally new and
something that's being converted because obviously if it's a mill or it's a
an old farm building etc they aren't a new build they are a conversion I just
wonder if you can pull that out differently so that you don't get what
you could be perceived as skewed data because it isn't technically new but
it's a conversion that's new.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:17:01
Guy, certainly in terms of some of these
difficult calculations about embodied carbon,
actually when you do a conversion,
it's something that continues to exercise
the best data monitoring brains.
Anything to add?
Guilherme Rodrigues Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:17:16
Yes, so the data that ONS cleans and polishes every year,
they don't do that, but we do have access
to the raw EPC data, and that is something
that we've been trying to solve.
There's plenty of information there.
That's why we came out with this hypothesis of conversions,
looking at specific observations classified as new,
that when you go to Google Maps,
the site itself doesn't look that new.
We are still trying to find a way
how we can program it in a systematic way.
But I'm confident we can do it.
Thank you.
I'm not seeing – Leah.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:18:03
Yeah, I had a question about the access to green space.
And again, I think it's sort of similar to what you were saying, that what are we going to do about it and how does that change?
And presumably that's quite a difficult one to change because these
Leah Stuart (Private Sector Representative) - 0:18:17
are quite large tracts of land by the definition.
and there is quite a specific definition.
Is this something where we should be working
local plans or land allocation or something?
I sort of don't know what we're going to do about it.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:18:31
Thank you, just before I bring Guy back in,
officers will know this is a particular bugbear of mine

5 Monitoring Indicators

because Colerdale, beautiful, you know,
six market towns and beautiful countryside,
you know, Yorkshire Water and others.
and I looked to some of the local statistics.
The Rembrandt's Association last year said that
Calderdale had one of the highest number
of footpaths in England.
And it's an artifact of the particular calculation
that they do in relation to that to do with population
density and availability.
I think it misrepresents actually,
and we'll make representation through our channels
to ONS and others, but it particularly irks me about Cauldredale.
Gideon?
I was just thinking on that, can we have a secondary metric as well, I
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 0:19:25
think, because
certainly Kirklees has a really bad reputation in this, but when you look at it, we're in
a similar sort of vote in a lot of respects.
And when you look at the map, I was looking at the map earlier, you think, well, actually,
it's not that much further to that big green space.
So maybe we need to think about a secondary metric that maybe works best for us.
I will wish you a metric. Yes, I'd like it.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:19:53
OK, thank you. I'm not seeing them indicate on that.
I think some useful points to pick up officers in relation to that, particularly in relation to targets.
It is disappointing. We're halfway through the municipal year, as it were.
And some of the things that we're worrying away at, like efficiency rating of sea, etc.,
in terms of new build and conversions, underperforming national average, fuel poverty in terms of
relationship, and indeed how we sort out the muddle and mess that's electric vehicle charging
across West Yorkshire.
there are some real challenges and I hope that the monitoring at the next meeting
will actually show where we've begun to make some progress in relation to those
things. Thank you. The recommendation here folks is simply that members note the
messages and the direction of travel and take it away to their organisations and
and continue to work with the combined authority. Thank you. Okay we're going to
on then folks to the next item which is home energy West Yorkshire and I'm

6 Home Energy West Yorkshire

going to basically say it's it's our regional program and we're focusing
today on scaling up domestic retrofit we've talked before about pilots we've
talked about pace and scale and this is something that we return to and it's
Complex is long term, it's not just West Yorkshire, and it encompasses lots and lots of things
that we do in terms of domestic retrofit and our vision, and Jess mentioned at another
meeting this morning, the vision that the Mayor has, everyone in West Yorkshire can
live in a warm, comfortable and low carbon home.
Now those of you working and living in West Yorkshire will know that many of our homes
are pre 1919 or or even older. Old, cold and stone. Stone are beautiful beautiful
milestone grit but nonetheless we want to change that to warm, comfortable and
low carbon actually. So over to you Jess. Thank you chair. Good afternoon everyone
and I'm conscious of time so I'll dive straight in. So we have a couple of
Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:22:19
papers this afternoon around the activity that we're undertaking in home
and energy West Yorkshire service area.
And these are products and projects
that we're bringing forward to really scale
up that pace of delivery.
The first paper that you've got here
is focusing on products that we've
got outside of the social home predominantly,
where we know that in the homes that we've
got across West Yorkshire, there's a million homes,
and about 23 % of those are social homes.
What are we doing outside of that?
And some of these projects and programs in that first paper
are showing the activity that we've got,
where we're learning, and we've got pilot projects
that's showing us some really interesting data.
And we're coming this afternoon to try and have
a conversation with you and explore where we think
we need to be taking some of those projects further
and enhance our offer to residents across West Yorkshire.
So starting at 3 .26 within your paper
around the solar residential collective buying scheme,
you'll see there the data, and the scheme was launched
on the 5th of July, 24, and we've had some really good
take up there and through the initial registrations through to over 1 ,000
homes and being transferred to the scheme installer and to date we've
completed 500 house surveys and had 51 solar installations already taken place.
The low -interest loan is also performing well it was launched back in July and
we've had 63 applications 46 were in progress, 15 have been declined partly
due to the purpose of the requested loan not to deliver retrofit measures or
people cancelling appointments and we've had two loans already fully drawn down.
To date the average loan value is about twelve and a half thousand and our
delivery partner Lendology have modeled a forecast for demand for the loan pot
based on current interest we could service about 136 loans based on average
loan value of eleven thousand. So the monitoring of the loan and the
residential collective buying scheme provide really helpful indicators to us
where residents are engaging with available products and when they have options, they are making informed decisions.
So we're really keen to maintain this momentum, awareness and strengthen the financial choice for residents through an enhanced product.
This sits alongside
conversations and exploration that we're having on a range of fiscal incentives and the Home Energy West Yorkshire team would welcome views of some of the
initial proposals being explored.
As we said, the loan has seen a really good take -up and members will recall that the original business case was for a revolving loan
utilizing the recycling of repaid loans to service others.
Currently, the 1 .5 million pot projects to close on the 31st of March 2026 or when the 1 .5 has been fully lent, whichever is the earlier.
Modeling completed on turning the current pot into a revolving loan pot and extending this from two years to ten
would see up to an increased pot of about 3 .5 million could facilitate loans of about
between 141 and 705 loans depending on the value of loans secured.
These changes will create a robust scheme to provide sustained access to upfront capital for retrofit, avoiding the cycle of short -term
inconsistent funding.
In addition, we're looking to explore a retrofit barrier support fund scheme.
We need to build awareness commitment
Comfortability of residents to commence with retrofit measures and the home energy West Yorkshire team are keen to explore and test products that offer consistency
longevity of affordable retrofit financing
Barriers to retrofit are across all ten years and that's well known lack of trusted information not knowing how to access quality
contractors feeling unsafe with contractors and homes
The combined authorities commissioned a study with GFI to undertake an assessment as to
the role the combined authority could and should take in the retrofit finance and whilst
the report is not yet complete we are keen to explore what our role should be in that
sector.
In reflection of the changes faced through the delivery, challenges sorry, faced in the
delivery of social housing decaf fund and we're reflecting as Councillor Scullion has
said the vision that everyone in West Yorkshire can live in a warm and low carbon home, we
need to make sure that we're providing solutions and support for residents
across West Yorkshire. Some of the ideas we've not yet done a long list exercise
hence a conversation would be welcome this afternoon and other issues that we
could consider equity loans further demand across aggregated finance schemes
such as a residential collective buying scheme through to more tailored and
responsive support for residents where barriers are broader and more complex
additional community liaison officers outreach activity and covering temporary
relocation costs for vulnerable residents during work. So see these are some of the areas that we're really keen to explore
We're keen to build on the momentum we've got and the awareness of these pilot projects
and seeking conversation with members this afternoon around some of those thoughts that we have.
Thank you Jess and can I say that I saw for the first time in a local
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:27:14
town chat group a reference to
the home energy projects first time I've actually seen and you know it was
has MD Herrod you know there's this really good scheme so some of that
word -of -mouth stuff obviously is working somewhere. Comments,
observations and offers.
Okay.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:27:47
It's a very small amount in terms of the trajectory we've got going back to the targets.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 0:27:53
You know, if we're going to do this, we need to ramp it up very fast.
If Councillor Cooper had been here still, he would have been talking about his recharge
scheme.
I'm sure where that's a charge on the home.
I know we took out PV because of it.
So I think there needs to be a lot more innovation.
There needs to be a very fast take up
and ramping up of all of this.
When I was running the Micro -Generation Certification Scheme
with the government and industry,
one of the things that did make it happen
was the fact that we had the feed -in tariff
renewable heat incentive.
and you know we went from from a few hundred to a million properties in in 10
years that I was in there so the ambition has to be very very high and
the money that is going into it has to be very well distributed for that I think.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:28:52
Thank you and I don't know anybody who was at this morning's meeting with and
which did discuss some of that question of scale and pace of finance at national and
where Yorkshire level perhaps wants to say something in a moment comes to a patient.
Thank you chair and similar to Gideon yeah absolutely needs ramping up
Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council - 0:29:14
by immeasurable
scale and I'm sure given our priorities that's going to be something we can all in tandem
be asking for.
I just wanted to pitch on a few of the barriers as for take -up, but it's good to see that the numbers are high
But clearly it needs to reach more cohorts. So some of the work our registered providers are doing across West Yorkshire like to get the housing
to name one
Is really key I think to understanding by and beyond the sort of private rented sector and to understand that these things don't have necessarily
have to be just disruptive, they can actually improve not just heating and
you know how much your bills cost but also what the place looks like and
actually do some retrospective place making at the same time and I think
that's going to be key to amplifying buying. The thing around trusted
information as well, linking it back to flooding, I do remember post 2015
flooders probably should declare some form of thing as well was that
some of the cowboys that you know pitched up and did some of that work for
residential properties you know as a floodwater in this last weekend going
seeing residents that were able to access grants at that time with products
that don't work anymore or weren't properly followed up in terms of
maintenance and that's something that tracks I think when it comes to retrofit
as well and we've seen we've seen things in our in train I'm sure it's not unique
to Coledale where they've been dodgy retrofit words or someone's come in so
making sure that library and that understanding of who is good and that's
that's not just a local authority level that's a WICA level as well it's gonna
be crucial going forward. The thing around community liaison and outreach I
think is critical too especially as we extrapolate what we're doing here down
to our own places as well that I think we're all seeing whether it's through
voluntary community sector or in other places the idea around retrofit hubs
popping up here there and everywhere so having some read across and having some
key messages that are being shared by us all and an understanding so that we're
not also duplicating work that's happening elsewhere it's going to be
it's going to be key to getting that buy -in too. Thank you that point about
consistency across the region is really important.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:31:36
Martin and then Richard.
Thank you, Chair.
Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership) - 0:31:40
Yeah, I'm kind of carrying on a bit from what Scott said then
about engagement.
The section on the local energy advice demonstrator
and the lessons learned, I thought was interesting,
particularly in terms of disseminating that learning.
But equally, it linked to the following report
on the social housing programmes
where we through the first few waves we've gained a lot of learning. I think
for all of us in the social housing sector we probably see resident
engagement as probably the biggest challenge in terms of effective delivery
of these programs at scale at pace and so anything we can do to ease that and
remove those barriers collectively I think would be a really good investment
at the time.
And as well as the examples in here,
there are other activities going on
which we could bring into that
and share that information around.
Together Housing was mentioned,
they've sponsored a knowledge transfer partnership
with the University of Huddersfield on this very issue.
So I think there's a good opportunity there
which perhaps I could facilitate
in terms of disseminating that kind of information.
The second point I wanted to make on the
solar
collective buying scheme
I noted towards the end of that section that there's been a cost of the to the
authority of nearly 60 ,000 pounds of doing that
And that obviously can't be ignored in terms of continuing those programs going forward
I hope those programs do continue on I'm gonna benefit on the 16th of December when my installations done
But I would hope to see that there was a considerable discount over what I would be paying in the open market for that scheme.
It did occur to me that there were other examples where the procuring authority can put a small levy on top of what the contractor costs are,
which could then generate an income to cover those central overhead costs.
So on the basis of that £60 ,000 split between the 460 odd properties, that's £137 per property, which is about 2%.
So a 2 % levy on top of the contractor costs would effectively cover WICA's overhead.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:34:04
Thank you for that and it's actually often forgotten in terms of the public sector that it costs something to spend money, or to spend money well, should I say.
Thank you. I'm going to take Richard now and then Leah.
Thank you and just applaud the work that's been done here but I'm
Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative) - 0:34:24
going to abuse the
good offices of having Selvin Brown here.
I've been on this committee and its predecessors on and off for over ten years and one of the
frustrations in this area and others is it clearly requires a national policy response
to go to Gideon's point and we're making really good efforts in this space but when and until
There was a clear and simple policy to help drive this and really elevate this forward.
I fear our good efforts are going to be a lot of effort with not substantial gains.
And I don't know what those answers are.
I'm sure there's answers for people who own houses and answers for people who own people
in the social sector.
But it strikes me this is a – this starts as a national issue where a lot of discretion
could be given locally as to how it's implemented,
but I don't see that tax break for those who own houses.
As an example of what you might do for people
who actually own houses where people just see straight away
that they'd be just the stupidest people in the world
not to use that tax break, for example.
And I appreciate that doesn't touch the social side,
but my basic and simple point is one,
if this happens centrally, that would begin to mitigate
the very correct points made about cowboy builders and retrofit because unless there's
a clear and demonstrable supply chain you will not have reputable people doing this
work. It's as simple as actually going to get a call -in response every time there's
a flood or there's something else going on and that cycle of people not being trusted
quite correctly will continue. But if there's a national programme the supply chain will
respond. Thank you.
Those are very good points, Richard, and I couldn't agree more in terms of a national
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:36:07
response.
And the new government have been in for, I think,
it's about 20 weeks, actually.
They need to get on with it.
They need to get on with it.
But we are in a transitional period.
And transition, as we know, is difficult.
I think our efforts here in West Yorkshire
are not in vain, because I think they do help.
And we will lobby to ensure that they do help inform
what the post -transition looks like. Selvin, I'm good to bring you in here.
Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero - 0:36:44
Thank you chair. So Richard, I totally accept what you say. I agree with the
fact that there does need to be a national response and I think the
government has been very very clear. In fact 20 weeks feels like 20 years
because we have announced so many things.
So the first thing I would say is the government has clearly
set out a warm homes plan with an ambition of doing,
or retrofitting, you might notice,
5 billion homes in the next five years.
That is a quantum on what we have been
doing over the last five years.
I always say to the Secretary of State, what we need to do
is be clear about what is the standard by the date.
And we also need to be clear on the technology.
You will see the warm homes plan.
OC things come together the government has already announced its intention to
Regulate or improve the energy efficiency standards through these regulations of all rented homes both PRS and the SRS as you go
There was a previous commitment and that it was changed and and so we are sort of where we are
But those things will come through there's also a public commitment to
Look again and reform EPC
And so there you will probably see a number of measures and metrics which will bring through the warmer home
I won't just be focused on fabric. Although we will not we will not forget fabric to your point Gideon in relation to scale
Well, that's I know we're going to get on and talk about and I was slightly Richard keep my pad
Right, we're gonna get on and talk about so housing fund but over the last four years
We have gone from a 30 million pound program
Nationally to what will be way three or three billion. That's a hundred fold increase
So there is a thing that we need to do at scale and I haven't done that you have all done that
But we haven't compromised quality all of the homes done on the social housing fund are done under the palace 2035
Standards and every single one of them are registered with trust box
So there is a back guarantee in the event that there is something that has gone wrong. So
The last thing I would say is I'm very much looking forward to, and I know you all know
this, looking forward to working with you on devolution.
The Chancellor has announced that West Yorkshire Combined Authority will be one of the four
next areas after West Midlands and Manchester in April 25 to get devolution.
And I think because of lots of things, things that you're trying yourself, the change of
rules where Treasury will be able to allow you to fold money over years that
this will be a better institutional solution than the one that we've been able
to develop nationally. Thank you. Thank you for that. We feel we should have
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:39:29
been in the trailblazer around this time but we'll be patient. We will hang
on. I've got Leah and Gideon and then I'm going to move us on, if I may, to
the next item because there is an overlap between the two.
So Leah first.
Hi.
So building on what Scott was saying and Martin, but just asking about evaluation, how are
we evaluating the success of these schemes.
Leah Stuart (Private Sector Representative) - 0:39:52
And I think there is something about the quality of workmanship that's being undertaken.
And then in terms of the sort of longer term benefits, like the expected household savings,
because all of that feeds back into it being an attractive thing for people to then do.
you know, I've saved 400 quid on my bills this year.
Amazing.
So it's sort of, what other co -benefits can we expect
and are we evaluating and monitoring those
so that we can sort of sell it
and create a virtuous circle.
Momentum.
Momentum, yeah.
Thank you, Gideon.
Yeah, I've got a couple of thoughts very quickly.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 0:40:30
We have a lot of conservation areas
and we have a lot of issues in terms of the properties
that we've got and how to do the upgrades on them because of that and I think that's something we
need to think about very seriously in consideration with planning and that will go for the new build
as well side of it. I was on the periphery of the conversation that Martin might be able to
help better with but there is GB insulation scheme has got these pushing out insulation that may not
work for some properties and we've talked earlier about the skills and the
knowledge and that understanding of what we're doing. There are properties going
to be out there that could fall into the same trap as we did last time with
insulation and have damper mould and things because of what's being offered
and no alternative. Community Energy Big Lottery grant has just been offered to a
group in in Glee's three million pound to help go out to communities particularly
hard to treat our
poverty poor and those areas to to actually look at how we we move that
information out. So it might be worth us talking to them on the way through. And
finally, a plea. Can we decouple gas and electricity? It's probably not the one
that anyone wanted to hear, but it's a huge part
of this whole equation.
Thank you.
And that point is very important,
and one that was made this morning in terms
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:42:11
of understanding the finances and the financial mechanisms
and the way in which some leverage can be applied
in terms of unlocking those financial mechanisms.
We have to celebrate the sell.
We have to separate gas and electricity
In terms of making some of those calculations
Thank you
Can I just say Sylvan don't be too hard on fabric first because we like fabric first here in West Yorkshire in terms of our
Old -cold terraced houses actually, it's actually very important and it's it's it yes
It's a stage along the way, but it's important part of part of important part of our plans
Thank you folks. Um, and in terms of that particular report
We are endorsing, I think, the overall direction.
Jess, thank you.
And we've had some views.
I wonder if we could move straight on then
to the retrofitting social housing.
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you, Chair.
So the second paper here is identifying and setting out
Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:43:16
the live activity that we have across work that we're doing

7 Retrofitting Social Housing

to deliver retrofit measures to social homes
across West Yorkshire.
The majority of funding today has come through across those areas, so this paper is setting
out where we currently are and our future aspirations, particularly through the warm
homes bids that we did submit on Friday for West Yorkshire.
So just reflecting on some of the points that have been made on the previous paper, whilst
considerable progress has been made in terms of understanding and knowledge of the development
of domestic retrofit, the scale and pace we absolutely understand and the funding routes
available to us currently will not realize a target if we are to continue with the same approach.
Hence why we're looking to understand how we challenge ourselves, how we do raise our ambitions in order that we can achieve our net zero
aspirations there.
Funding constraints and other barriers do continue to be a challenge, but it's welcomed
conversation with serving around where that devolution conversation could provide us that full flexibility
In terms of how we balance and and and do provide those full flexible programs for investment
Just in terms of where we currently are we have been successful in our social housing decarbonisation fund approaches to date
We've had a wave one and wave 2 .1 and a booster and between those three schemes
We have delivered or will be projecting to deliver as way to point when it's still live and retrofit measures to about
4 ,500 homes across West Yorkshire. Reflecting on that need to scale up and
step up around where we are in terms of that picture and the need to undertake
retrofit measures to all social homes by 2038 in line with our own ambitions but
also the mayoral pledge, we have submitted a warms home bid through the
social housing fund and we have done that through our consortium partners
with the West Yorkshire Housing Partnership and that consortium has
grown to 30 members from the previous nine and we have scaled up our ambition
collectively where we are taking just under 9 ,000 homes in through that bid and
so we're hoping for a positive outcome of that in January. We're also working
with West Yorkshire Housing Partnerships, some of the members there to deliver
solar PV and battery storage to 1 ,500 homes across West Yorkshire and that
will deliver self -sustaining operation model of solar supply as well as reduce
Harris to tenants and that will be delivered by March 2026 and so there's
some real activity and scale of ambition and pace across social housing and
retrofit measures in the West Yorkshire region and through the delivery and
development of our team at home energy West Yorkshire and hopefully the funding
picture that will improve we will continue to do that at pace. Thank you
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:46:10
that is very good news and certainly in Col de Dale I want to to pay tribute to
connect and to together housing in terms of some of the initiatives they've done
on their social housing in in steep steep deep valleys where the Sun often
doesn't doesn't shine but nonetheless done great work. Questions?
Scott, a cancer patient. Thank you chair and yeah so Martin nodding along
Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council - 0:46:42
there about yes some hidden houses in the Col de Valle which we all recognise.
Not to preempt what Martin might say and I know we have a I know we have the
consultation out around planning and what and what's happening with that a
national basis but I know a big barrier in places like Col de Valle, I'm not going to
get too parochial on this, is the interplay between heritage and being
able to retrofit properly. Now not suggesting for one minute to ride
roughshod over the streetscapes and uniqueness of the places that fall within
West Yorkshire but I know it has been challenging not just for RPs in
this room but elsewhere as well to how they might best apply some of these
especially to some of those pre 1919 stone terraces that are long and
perhaps the idea of heat pumps and deep insulation don't work well within quite
truncated confines of those small homes so I do hope that throughout that
consultation there is a I don't want to say scrapping but perhaps a more nuanced
view about how we apply retrofit in places like Yorkshire. Thank you Katie
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:47:49
Cllr Katie Dye (Leeds City Council) - 0:47:51
and then Martin. Thank you I just wanted to pick up on some of the challenges
that are mentioned in the paper on page 53 of tenant engagement and wondering
and whether the programmers take an advantage of things
like when people are having really disruptive work
on their houses, for example, bathrooms, kitchens,
or void properties and taking advantage of that.
Thank you.
I'm going to take a few questions together.
I'm going to take Martin and then Jack
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:48:23
and then come back to you, Jess.
I just wanted to add, really.
Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership) - 0:48:32
if I've read it correctly the report refers to the social housing
decarbonization funding and the wave three work that WICUS has been directly
involved with but outside that in West Yorkshire other other bids from
Leity council from together housing from other other housing partners that
haven't been part of the WICUS consortium have also sought to deliver a
retrofit on their stock so these figures actually don't represent the full
picture of investment across West Yorkshire. It's a piece of work that the
Housing Partnerships trying to do is to aggregate the figures for the
WICA channel and the other channels and we'll bring those back to the committee
in due course when they're in a state that is presentable.
Thank you Martin. Councillor Hemingway, Jack.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:49:26
Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to pick up the question on page 51 .3
Cllr Jack Hemingway (Wakefield Council) - 0:49:29
.9 about the challenging the variation about the quality of data for housing stock in West Yorkshire.
Are we confident in the figures we've got and do we have a consistent baseline that all of the housing providers involved are working to?
because as we know with any action around climate sustainability we need to
know what the baseline position is really before we can monitor and coordinate
action effectively so just a question really are we confident the baseline
data what metrics we're using and do we need to look in more detail at that.
Thank you I'm going to take Selvin I want to comment myself and then come
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:50:07
back to you Jess. Selvin. Thank you chair I think we we shouldn't
Selvin Brown Director - Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero - 0:50:08
underestimate how
Difficult this stuff is it is really hard and there's always saying to MXC LG this morning
we were talking about devolution and
Probably the best way to build up the capability in the capacity is to learn by doing and that is exactly what you've done
So I want to say look well done for what you've done
So far as Martin says my data shows that you've done a lot more than four and a half thousand homes in this area
In the last four years because that is how long we've been doing this
On your G -Biz point, Gideon, I'd be very happy to look into it and write to you.
G -Biz is delivered under PAS 2035 and has trustmark back guarantees, but Martin, if
you want to get together with Gideon and just send me what other details and we'll look
into it and write back to you to make sure that it is all sorted.
I think on the planning point, I mean, this is something that the Secretary of State is
genuinely grappling with with the Deputy Prime Minister.
obviously a large part of the solution for all of us nationally is solar there
are restrictions in planning on the solar at the moment so that and historical
buildings and kind of not wanting to change the look and feel of places is an
important consideration hence why the government is consulting and to your
question Jess you will be getting an allocation everybody will get an
allocation but to manage expectations the fund has been significantly overbid
had bids well in excess of 2 billion against 1 .3.
There will obviously be a match funding
of another 2 billion that goes with that.
But I am having another go with the Treasury
in SR1 called SR2.
So the intention is in January to make an allocation
to everybody in line with what we can afford
and then work with the Treasury to get a top up
for years two and three and to provide certainty
into years four and five.
So you'll get two allocations next year, one in January for April and a second in September for the following four Aprils.
You have five years of funding and that all rolls into your devolution deal.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:52:16
Thank you. Thank you. So lots of lots of notes there.
Thank you, Selbin. I just wanted to make a comment really in terms of this transitional period as we try to get some scale and pace in regionally and nationally.
And in some ways, although it's not directly analogous, it reminds me of that period in the early 2000s
when you needed to basically, within the social housing world, put in decent heating systems, do kitchens, do bathrooms.
And we went through a painful period, time of Blair, we went through a painful period in terms of do councils keep the housing stock,
Do they have an arms length management organization?
Or do they give their housing assets or deficits away?
And actually, a very difficult period
in terms of housing associations,
registered providers, and councils working out
what they needed to do.
And we're at a point in terms of housing now where actually,
we're needing to redo kitchens and bathrooms.
And one of the challenges about the narrative
that people have touched on before is basically how do we get to the position where you upgrade
your kitchen, you upgrade your bathroom and you upgrade your insulation and your heating
systems as we move away from gas really.
And it's that transitional period that is very difficult to get your heads around because
there are so many things in play really.
And in terms of local councils, speaking for local councils, we are trying to do our bit
in terms of getting your own house in order, decarbonising, reducing the state, all of those kind of things.
Actually, it is a wider partnership in terms of managing this transition going forward.
So not a great analogy, but it certainly did remind me of some of the conversations we had around that time.
Jess, I'm good to come back to you, if I may, just for a last round up on this.
Thank you, Chair. Yes, I just want to come back on a few points.
and just the point that Leah made on the previous paper,
but it is relevant here also around evaluation.
Jessica McNeil West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:54:28
Yes, we've appointed STEERS ED to do a full evaluation
of all of our program currently.
We do need them to do some of that work earlier than others
due to where the funding's coming from,
so we have a first phase of the program evaluation
due in June 25, and then a full evaluation
of everything that we're currently doing in December 25.
But the other point you made around
the longer term co -benefits, we're very keen to make sure
that the health and well -being of retrofit
is also part of that narrative.
And so we have some work streams now working with NHS
to understand where we sign posts and identify people
that are being regularly seen for respiratory difficulties,
which could be due to them living in impor and damp homes.
So we're looking at how we work more effectively
to get that narrative and why the benefits are out there.
And just a couple of the other points made,
Katie, around the programming of works
to avoid multiple disruptions. Absolutely, yes, our registered housing providers are
keen to do the same. It provides cost efficiencies, it's a less
disruptive position for tenants and we're keen to manage and minimize that
disruption in order that we can have them that greater engagement with tenants in
order that they are wanting to be involved and allowing that work to happen.
And just a final point around surveys of properties. Apologies, I can't quite see the name of that point.
Absolutely, we've learned an awful lot around what we've done previously and where that has impacted negatively on some of our projects.
And in wave three, we're in a really strong position in that a considerable number of the parties that have gone in that bid have now been fully surveyed,
which gives us a confidence for that first phase, first year of delivery, and we'll continue to undertake surveys in the first year
and to allow that second year and second phase of interventions to come forward.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 0:56:24
And we'll just let Selvin slip away and we're very grateful for his
attendance at our meeting actually and for the news he brought with him.
I saw various combined authority folks smiling. Okay if members of the committee are
happy can we move on to item 8 which is the flood resilience programs and you
We know that we've had a strong track record in West Yorkshire
of good partnership, good innovation, and really
complex mixture of funding and ways
that we've brought money into this.
But we still face real challenges,
particularly in terms of the finance
and making that stack up and where there's viability gaps.
And we continue to be, I think, quite innovative, really,
and how we try and fill those viability gaps.
I was going to invite Rob to speak on this,
but I think also we've got Jenny Cook from the Environment
Agency.
I don't know which of you wants to start off.
Jenny?
Thank you, Chair.
Yes, if you could just say a few words in terms of context,
showing real partnership between the combined authority
and the Environment Agency.
Absolutely.
So I'll just start with a couple of headlines

8 Flood Resilience Programmes - Update

Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency) - 0:57:44
from this weekend's storm, storm Bert. So from Thursday the Environment Agency
started rostering up and opening the Instant Room and flood alerts were
issued across Yorkshire and flood warnings went out to the Upper
Coldadale on the Saturday afternoon with the flood siren sounding. So a very
anxious and scary time for the residents impacted by these. Now in terms of
impacts, there were minimal impacts from the main river. Now these stayed in
channel, um, which is, which is really good news, but there was a significant
amount of surface watering, uh, surface water flooding, which obviously has
impacted, uh, with many road closures and some properties and businesses flooded
as well. Um, just wanted this opportunity to say thank you again to the flood
wardens and for members of staff, you know, within the EA and within the
councils that were out over the weekend and these, in these terrible conditions.
These are really important volunteer networks. They feed back information to the incident rooms,
helps us to keep our information channels up to date and to keep the public safe.
You know, reiterating messages about the dangers of driving through water and to keep everybody safe.
So the storm, it's an ever -present reminder of the risk that our West Yorkshire communities
live with daily and in the shadow of
Over fifty three thousand properties are at flood risk in West Yorkshire now of those about twenty nine
Thousands are at high risk high to medium risk. It is a real problem a
Very brief reminder of how flood risk investment decisions are made and some statistics around
What works are happening in West Yorkshire now the flood risk program is developed through the Yorkshire regional flood and coastal committee
So each local authority is represented on this committee and it has a keen role in reviewing deliberating and finalizing those projects
recommended for consent on the program and the the role that the environment agency plays is a
Coordination role and to submitting that to government
Within this program. There's a real mixture of environment agency led schemes and our remain led schemes
Now in terms of the consented program of works for West Yorkshire
There are 116 projects within this spending review period so that's from March 21 to March 27
50 those schemes are EA led 66 are may lead now these
116 projects forecasted to deliver around
4 ,000 properties better protected and
2 ,000 businesses better protected in the next two years of this program West Yorkshire is expecting 22 projects to complete
better protecting around close to 2 ,000 properties
Now a little bit on partnership funding for a handover to my colleague Rob of the
344 million that's being invested in this program.
72 % of that funding is directly through grant and aid through dafra with the
remainder provided through local levy, private contributions and public
contributions from local authorities within our current program.
There remains a need to source approximately 50 million of additional
funding and many thanks to the committee for the funding support that has come
through to date on these projects. I'll hand over to Rob, thank you.
Thank you Jenny, thank you chair. The reports to update the committee on the progress with our two
Rob Tranmer, Officer West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:01:04
programs, two so far, and request changes, some flight changes to the management
arrangements and also to update on the progress of the West Yorkshire property
flood resilience for small and medium -sized enterprises. We have two
programs, the natural flood management program. In that program the strategic
case identified nine projects. Two of those projects have commenced on site and one project
has completed and four projects are currently developing business cases which will be brought
forward shortly. Two projects have been withdrawn due to deliverability challenges identified
following more detailed scheme development. On the capital side, the strategic business
case identified an indicative pipeline of 23 projects across three phases. This was
more ambitious program of which a few projects were identified as being a
priority to come forward and the rest will put on a pipeline. Two of those
schemes have commenced on site and the further schemes expect to start on site
soon. In addition to those programs from February this year small to medium -sized
enterprise available to benefit from five million pounds of grant support to
strengthen their flood resilience. Despite an extensive engagement
and marketing plan only 18 queries have been received and three businesses have
received support for survey work. So to broaden the reach and engage businesses
three and a half thousand letters individual letters have been sent to
businesses in affected areas last week and as a result of that further five
inquiries have already been received. The project will be reviewed in
February when we have the results of the additional marketing so we'll come back
on that. Following a view with the alongside the Environment Agency based
on their current program and changes to the funding gap in some cases on the
deliverability timeframes and in line with the combined authorities
endorsement of an approach to revise ways of working that would ensure a
focus of delivery that maximizes available funding. The project pipeline
has been revised to prioritize projects commencing on site before the
end of 27 -28. In addition to additional projects at Heblebrook,
Calderdale and Hebden Bridge have been identified for inclusion of the wider
pipeline at the request of the Environment Agency. Heblbrook can be
delivered fairly quickly or started site fairly quickly and Hebden Bridge is seen
as a key priority. To help manage the program more effectively and to avoid
coming back to committee to give you an updated list, a delegation is thought to
amend the program pipeline in the future and to enter new projects into the
pipeline, effectively creating a rolling program subject to additional funding
being secured. All life projects will of course be subject to the combined
authorities approval as business cases are submitted through the assurance
program, insurance process rather. So the recommendations first are that the
committee notes the progress with both programs. The committee notes the
progress of the West Yorkshire Flood Resilience Grant Scheme for SMEs. The
committee endorses the revised approach for flood projects. The proposal
to deliver those projects that commenced delivery first and entry of two new
projects onto the capital management programs are set out in Appendix 2 and
that the committee delegates approval to the extra policing environment and
placed in consultation with the chair of the Climate and Energy Environment Committee that any
future review and reprioritization of projects on the natural
and capital flood management pipelines, the acceptance of new projects onto the
program and the transfer of projects which place greater risk on either
program to lower down the flood pipeline for consideration as part of future
investment programs. So essentially bringing forward those schemes that can
be delivered quicker, the quickest schemes that can be delivered rather than
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:04:55
holding back. Thank you very much and thank you for those recommendations and
thank you Jenny for that summary of Storm Burt. It's a funny name for Storm
isn't it Bert? But yes and I entirely support what you said about behavior of
the two things particularly an observation from Colderdale from
Cross -Colderdale. One is that people have short memories where flooding is
concerned and of course every flood is slightly different and you know we've
all got flood plans those of us in in the zones and you need to dust them off
But of course, how they sell, tenants change.
Actually, you need to keep at the education thing.
I think the other thing is that even since our last major flood
in Cote d 'Ile in 2020, that it's really, really strange
how people have absolutely forgotten the basic rules,
like don't drive into deep water.
Actually, in terms of behaviour, there are a lot more cars on the road post -COVID, and
actually people have really not, you know, haven't retained the folk memory of how dangerous
flooding is really.
It's just extraordinary.
So there is the point about behaviour, the narrative about behaviour and the continued
education programme.
I should also mention that before Storm Barrett, I wrote, once the new government ministers
had taken office, I wrote specifically to Emma Hardy MP, who's the new flood minister,
inviting her to come to Calderdale to see the work that we do in partnership with the
combined authority, with the environment agency, but also to make the point, and I think this
is particularly important immediately post -Bert, as other communities have been badly flooded,
including those not previously flooded.
Actually, you lose the emphasis on West Yorkshire.
One of the things I have said to her and to the civil servants
is actually we live climate change in West Yorkshire.
We know that this is not going to go away,
that we're going to have more extreme weather.
And therefore, the message of what
we're doing in West Yorkshire in terms
of both the hard adaptations, higher walls, managing rivers
and the environment agency and other assets,
but also the so -called soft things
that we do in terms of adaptability.
It's not going to be like medieval Britain, where
you abandon a community because it floods.
Actually, how can we be adaptable,
and how can people be adaptable and flexible?
And so I mentioned things like flood buddy schemes.
I mentioned our marvelous flood wardens from three to a hundred or whatever it is at the moment
Extraordinary work them that they did on on Saturday Saturday night. I mentioned the ways in which shops
Particularly in Hebden Bridge, but not just there have adapted so that you can press a button the shelves got to the ceiling
You know the Harry Potter esque things that that's happened, but it's all about adaptability. We know there's climate change
We know there's flooding. How can you adapt and still make that community thrive?
And to cut a long story short, and redo my pitch, but the Minister has agreed to come up and visit
and see that adaptability, resilience and sustainability message for herself.
I think it's an important message for West Yorkshire and for us as a combined authority,
is lots of places are going to be flooded.
What can we learn from some of the things that we're doing in partnership here in the
combined authority?
So, rather long.
And I will hear from other people now.
Gideon and then Scott and then Jack.
Yeah, thanks.
Apart from getting gills, I think we'll struggle with the adaptation
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:09:00
side of it in some ways.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 1:09:03
I've got a question really about the ratios that we have and linking those to planning.
So the one in the one in a hundred one in a thousand years sort of events.
And is there any work being done on that to actually bring it up to date in terms of like we know things are changing rapidly at the moment?
So are these ratios still effective and appropriate?
And how's that going to work with what's happening with the planning system and the changes that are going on there?
because it's all about build, build, build.
And we know that they'll try and put it onto floodplains
and they'll putting them wherever they can.
That could be a major impact for us.
Good for you, Jenny.
First of all, I'll caveat my response
Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency) - 1:09:56
because I'm not a planning expert.
However, there is a new NAFRA2 mapping tool
which shows the updated flood zones based on all
of the latest hydraulic modelling.
And it has an allowance for climate change
and includes surface water.
So in terms of that accessibility
to understanding flood risk and what is
and what is not appropriate land to develop on,
that tool will be a really useful resource.
Thank you.
Quick one, Goodyear.
Just come back on that because I think
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:10:23
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 1:10:23
the issue here is that people have,
when they read these things, they have an expectation
and it's not being met anymore
and then they get upset when they buy a house
and suddenly it's gonna flood.
So how do we deal with that side of it as well?
Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency) - 1:10:40
I think it comes back to the educational element
that Ter was talking about.
You can talk annual exceedance probabilities,
one in 200, one in 100, standard of protection.
It's really difficult to describe.
It can happen at any moment at any scale.
It's trying to kind of look at that risk -based approach
so that there is something that we have grappled with
as an organization in terms of how to make that
really accessible in terms of the understanding.
Yeah, always open to ideas.
We just do our best to try and explain.
Be prepared at any point.
Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:11:11
And of course, as we know in the steep side of Calder Valley,
people say, I won't fly.
I'm halfway up the hill.
And watch the surface waters Rob touched upon,
the surface water come in your back door
and go out your front door.
This question of how we manage water really as a nation
is a really crucial one and it's particularly crucial in West Yorkshire.
Scott's next. Yeah absolutely chair we've seen that play out this weekend in terms
Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council - 1:11:42
of the surface water issues that were the main things.
Again I'd like to extend thanks for the money that has been allocated so far
certainly in the village I lived in near Hebden Bridge the £40 million scheme
definitely made a difference in terms of how the river was reacting
and its capacity.
And I know there are others in progress as well
at the same time.
I notice conspicuously,
Colerdale absent from the NFM allocation,
but that probably doesn't tell you the whole story
because there's actually so much going on in that space,
whether it's the likes of Slow the Flow,
Yorkshire Water Landscapes for Water,
you know, VCS groups,
kind of literally like everything that's happening.
So it's a difficult thing.
I know we have always made a case around working with nature and parity of NFM versus large
civil schemes and I think that's something that needs repeating.
It's not just what it does, it's the allowance of communities to play part in their own resilience
that I think is powerful beyond the pervasive nature actually taking part and being part
of the solution is really, really important.
It would be remiss, and I probably need to declare an interest being someone that has
flooded children's schools, flooded and was out as a flood warden on Saturday dealing
with things.
It would probably be remiss for me not to make a little bit of a pitch, but Hebden Bridge
is a place that has got multiple schemes in the mix but has been waiting for quite a while.
I understand the Stubbing Home Road element, which has got 36 properties there, are probably
some of the most significant flood risk and potential issues to life in the
whole of in the whole of Colerdale. I know they've really struggled with the
finance and funding of the scheme. It's a constrained area, there's lots of people
that live there, there's lots of challenges as we saw in Myther & Royter
delivering schemes like this which then ends up accelerating the cost. And I know
they're moving towards full business case. I just know looking at Wicker's
Strategic innovation from principles as their funder of last resort is around their ability to intervene where there are funding gaps
And I'd really ask
Colleagues here to really think about moving heaven and earth to allow having seen what we've seen in the last weekend
That funding got just to be closed. Thank you
Thank you at Jack's next
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:14:11
Thank you chair. Yeah, just to fully concur with council patients comments there and support any efforts
Cllr Jack Hemingway (Wakefield Council) - 1:14:15
we know that anything we can do to break flooding in the western reaches of the Calder will benefit residents in the east and clearly your more profoundly impact in other areas.
So I think we don't politically want to see Calderdale supported with that.
Just to come on to the small business SME scheme, page 62, 3 .28.
It does sound like there's been a fair bit of publicity around this.
I just wondered in terms of the actual design of the scheme itself, are we confident that we've got that at the right levels of support?
can we do anything else around that and have we for instance engaged with a small business
federation or any organization that might have a bit of insight or expertise to offer
as to why we're not getting take up there because it feels like it seems like a good
scheme on paper but for some reason businesses aren't going for it.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:15:02
I'll just take, thank you Jack, I'll just take Katie and then Martin and then come back
to Jenny and Rob.
Thank you. My question was about the two schemes that you mentioned
Cllr Katie Dye (Leeds City Council) - 1:15:14
that were no longer being
taken forward, Rob. And just thinking they must have been on the programme because they
were necessary, so now they're off the programme, is there another scheme that will offer protection
or are they part of any of the other schemes that are going forwards? Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:15:37
Thank you and Martin. Thanks chair. It's really echoing point you made about
Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership) - 1:15:41
surface water flooding now being critical issue. Twenty years ago when I
joined my current employer our focus was entirely on local water courses over
overtopping and flooding properties but now it's basically any of our stock
could be affected anywhere in a cloudburst and what response do we have
to that that's that's that's where our thinking is now. Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:16:06
Well Jenny and Rob I'll come
to you first Rob if I may and have a go at some of those. Yeah sure the first question I think
Rob Tranmer, Officer West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:16:17
was about Stubb in Home Road. I can tell you that the reason why we're asking this committee to
include Stubb in Home Road is because the environment agency are currently looking at
it as a priority and it and it can come forward soon we're expecting to receive
their business care shortly so it's likely to go to the combined authority
unfortunately around the financial year end because of other pressures I can't
guarantee it will get approval then but that's when we're looking to bring it
forward around March April time maybe so we're looking to get something soon into
our appraisal system it's looking for a million pounds which is largely funding
to underwrite the risk which is largely what we're doing here because with the
flooding schemes there is a large element of risk in case the works are
inundated during construction so they have to allow a much bigger budget than
you identify for other projects so we're expecting to receive a proposal that
will suggest a million pounds it's currently being worked up so hopefully
that will kind of get on site next year or later this year so that's the
Stubbing Home row one. The grants I'm going to hand over if I can to my
colleague Vince in a second because Vince is managing the grant scheme if
that's okay chair. The two schemes that were have been removed from the list are
at Whitebeck and Broughton Hall they were from the natural flood management
program. The Whitebeck scheme was I think it was a one and a half million pound
suggested contribution. The cost estimate during the feasibility stage
went up to about three three and a half and some of that was because the scheme
required the removal or the diversion of a gas main and the cost of that was
significant more than expected. The scheme was very much an opportunity
scheme in that the the scheme currently has a large culvert that flows directly
downstream into the river air and the proposal was to divert that stream that
that stream into an existing overflow area to make that the main course that
the river will flow and meander it but we have problems also with a budget and
also with a landowner not not wanting to take part in anymore so we had to
abandon that scheme. The Broughton Hole scheme was reduced in scope to the point
where it was administratively found to be not valued for money. It was a very
small scheme to deliver some ponds at Broughton Hall on the estate there and
in consultation with the Environment Agency it was decided that
because they wanted to reduce the scope and the projects that they were looking
that focused more on biodiversity and didn't meet the kind of fluid criteria
necessarily that we expected so we had to remove that but it was a very small
scheme. So if I could hand over to Vince who can talk about the grant scheme.
Mr Vincent McCabe - 1:19:08
Yeah so we've designed the scheme with a lot of thought to some of the
issues that have been raised around sort of the quality of works that we would be funding
through this.
So we've engaged with the Environment Agency, for example, to use their framework for the
suppliers for consultants and the capital works coming out of it.
So we've tried to design it with a two -stage process so that it's clear that there's sound
and advice followed by sound capital installation basically.
Why it's not been attractive,
we've run webinars where we've directly engaged
with businesses and we've had lots of positive feedback
out of those webinars, but ultimately they've not
led to anything.
It's something we'll probably do more of
over the next couple of months as we sort of
move towards reviewing the scheme and try and get
some more feedback from people that we've engaged with
that maybe haven't followed through,
just to follow up and find out.
I think there's a,
we think really that there's an underlying sort of issue
around investment and economic uncertainty
and businesses prioritizing investment
into other areas that are more directly
sort of gonna make a bottom line impact for them.
So, but it's something that we'll definitely pick up
as we move towards the review.
Thank you, Vince.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:20:35
I wonder if it's a little bit like most of us don't think about our pensions until we're 55 and
Some of the work that we have to do on this climate committee is getting getting people to think about climate change is real
Actually, so yeah and understand there are always other more immediate things
Thank Jenny
Jenny Cooke, Advisory Representative (Environment Agency) - 1:21:01
Should I respond to Martin's question about surface water?
So absolutely, you know, what we always look to do, whenever we look at developing a flood
scheme, is to work in partnership with the council, with Yorkshire Water, to provide
an integrated flood risk solution.
Now, that's not always straightforward, and it really depends on the alignment of financial
programs, priorities within those respective organisations, and that's something that,
you know, certainly Adam and I are sort of working through at the moment, you know, the
absolute utopia is to do it once and do it together.
That's not always possible, but that's certainly what we strive to do.
And this is where, you know, in the interim, until those major programs align, that really,
you know, make that a simpler process, that's where the role of property level detection
and NFM is really, really important, especially with surface water, you know, to slow those
journeys down to make sure that the drainage systems aren't overwhelmed.
So yeah, so we're working towards that Martin, but it is a complex piece.
Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:22:01
Thank you all.
And I should say we focused a bit on the river colder, but other rivers are available in
my short term, especially the river Aire.
And as you know, and as it says in the papers, we have a whole catchment area.
There's no point in looking, the river goes where it goes through our towns and cities
Actually, and we have to have we have to have a holistic a whole catchment area approach to to managing water in West Yorkshire
So thank you all
Our members content to accept those recommendations to include those two new projects into the pipeline
and to delegate authority to
Liz's director in consultation with myself to green any future
reprioritization and accepting new projects into the pipeline
and we will come back to future reports on this.
Thank you very much.
Okay, let us move on.
I did warn you right at the beginning,
this was going to be a chunky agenda.
And we move from water to hydrogen.
And in terms of this particular project,
we've got Femi.
You're going to introduce this particular paper.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
Oluwafemi Omoniyi (Officer, West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:23:22
As members are aware, the Combined Authority commissioned a deep dive and study on hydrogen
deployment and use case in west Yorkshire.
The study was done to help understand using informed and evidence data where hydrogen
fits into the decarbonization story across several sectors within west Yorkshire.
The paper is just to give an update on some of the outputs of that study as well as some
of the key principles, the combined authority from review I've been able to gather from

9 Hydrogen Use Case

the study just to get a step from members on what their perception is on those principles.
And once again, the principles is not an exhaustive list, so we are happy to take some further
feedback on the principles that have been shared.
But before going into the principles, just sharing some feedback from the study.
The result from the study indicates that industry,
aviation, and transport form the majority of expected demand,
or expected future demand for hydrogen within West Yorkshire.
The study also indicates a limited or unlikely role
for hydrogen in domestic heating.
The study also indicates that the demand of hydrogen
within West Yorkshire can be potentially
met by construction of green hydrogen facilities,
as well as getting further supply from other regions
which could be distributed through
the East Coast Hydrogen Project.
Some actions and identified activities
were also gathered from the study
which will feed into the Imagine West Yorkshire Climate
and Environment Plan as well as inform
the Imagine Local Transport Plan as well.
So several key principles were inferred from the study
which I talk about now.
And the business for sharing that now
is because those principles will inform
for their engagement on the outputs of the study
with key stakeholders, which would include businesses,
industry, organizations with invested interest in hydrogen,
as well as local partners as well.
So with regards to the key principles,
one of the key ones is with regards to the type of hydrogen.
So the study shows that only low -carbon hydrogen
as defined by the UK low carbon nitrogen standards should be deployed within the region for the
reduction of emission across the sectors identified.
It also talked about strategic infrastructure planning and said there's a need to engage
with spatial planning and through the proposed regional infrastructure strategy to identify
best location for industrial sites and infrastructure development considering clustering.
And that's just burnt down from the fact that the study identifies the potential of additional
sites where hydrogen deployment can, hydrogen construction, so construction of green hydrogen
facilities can take place within West Yorkshire.
And with regards to transport, the study, one of the key principles was to identify
any public transport routes where hydrogen could potentially support, engage with local
every goods vehicle fleets to understand their plans and ensure that refueling
infrastructure is in place to support them and also engage with the airport
on its plan and decarbonization. On industry and businesses the study found
that it's essential to engage with businesses early and encourage them to
commit to a decarbonization plan also promote collaboration between industry
and other stakeholders such as academia to drive forward potential local production clusters
where businesses and industry have made a firm commitment to an hydrogen business plan.
So it also looked into supporting the development of local industrial clusters
such as the one happening in Bradford at the moment
as well as supporting the development of hydrogen zoning plans to identify areas
where hydrogen can be effectively integrated with end user requirements.
Finally, on leadership, the study also talked a lot about skills and innovation.
Obviously, the deployment of hydrogen would require an investment in skills and development,
as well as innovation.
And it's also talked about the combined authority engaging with key stakeholders,
such as the East Coast Hydrogen Project as well as other hydrogen projects being carried
out across several regions just to understand lessons learned from those projects, time
scales and how some of those projects can be replicated within West Yorkshire. So I'm
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:28:09
open for questions. Thank you. Vinnie. Richard. Thank you. That was again very helpful and
Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative) - 1:28:18
I don't think I mentioned in advance I need to leave at 4 .15.
So I think that's a really useful study as a baseline.
I was able to flick through it in the papers that we got this afternoon.
So I think it is just supposed to be a baseline and I'm sure we'll do a response to it.
To be provocative, I'm concerned that West Yorkshire does not appear to be trying to
a leading position in anything on hydrogen at the moment. We look like a price taker,
not a price maker. And so, for example, the recommendations say support and encourage
future HR applications that the grant you can get from Desnes. I don't know what support
and encourage means. I don't see a pathway here. Maybe this is not the purpose, but we
got some stuff quite late. I don't see us saying this means we're going to be a beacon
in hydrogen transport, we're going to be a beacon in mid -sized industrial support in hydrogen,
we're going to be a beacon in whatever. I see a study of all the areas but I don't see
our pathway forward and I don't think that was the purpose of the report by the way,
But that's what, as I read it, I thought, hmm, I see us being a price taker here, getting
hydrogen from somewhere else, and I began to wonder about the impact that would have
on our industrial base.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:29:54
Can I just come back to you on that, in terms of what is undoubtedly a cautious, investigative -level
paper?
Do you think that we should become an energy leader in terms of energy production in hydrogen?
Richard Goodfellow (Private Sector Representative) - 1:30:12
If you look at our USPs, so for example our devolved transport situation, so we've got
a lot of assets available there.
If you look at, so on that point there were some other authorities, say Aberdeen, they've
already led the way around hydrogen, and buses and so on.
It doesn't mean I have to replicate them, but some other people with much smaller fleets have already ended up with commercial partnerships with entities like BP.
If you look at our mid -sized industrial base, I am concerned what will inevitably happen is that the first clusters are going to happen at the very large scale industrial bases.
but if the attempt is to move from gas to hydrogen across all industry, and if give
or take the industry in West Yorkshire is mid -sized, it seems to me critical we have
some hydrogen base. If we all agree that's going to be the end point, that's actually
by the way not particularly clear at the minute I would suggest globally, but if we did think
that was the end point, I'm not sure what the region's going to be saying to industry
in ten years time if the only place they can actually get hydrogen from is from the northeast
or from somewhere near Liverpool.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:31:23
Thank you, that's very interesting.
Gideon.
Thanks for that.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 1:31:32
I've only just had a chance to slightly scan the report to be honest.
I've got a couple of thoughts on this.
One is low carbon. That means actually we've got to be really careful that we're not just putting off the transition and using hydrogen as an excuse to carry on gas for as long as possible.
and I'm sorry to say that I don't know Northern Gath,
I don't have Luca here, but we've seen it many times
where this is being used as, oh, we'll do green,
but then if we can't really do it,
then we've got this gray to go back to,
and I think that's a real worry for me
that we're not gonna use it as a driver.
If we are going to use green hydrogen,
then we do it in the right place,
we use it in the right way. There's some thought about housing, we've seen what
they've tried to do already with that, that doesn't seem to make any sense at
all at the moment. There's transport, big transport, yes, even buses I struggle
with at times, but certainly for trunkers and the trucks going
across the country it makes some sense but 666k per person for this project
you know that's the that's what we're actually talking about here in terms of
the investment for the number of jobs we get out of it and that is absolutely
phenomenal you know and if we're not going to transition out of it how long
is this thing going to, you know, be gray for,
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:33:19
so it really does worry me that we don't go that far.
Thank you, Gideon.
Sarah.
Thank you chair. Um,
Cllr Sarah Ferribly (Bradford Council) - 1:33:29
I know there'll be quite a few of you that sit on this committee that certainly
say this before because I think, you know, um, green nitrogen,
it is a wave is definitely the way forward. And obviously, uh,
We've had the great news of the announcement in Bradford.
And I know that conversations between WICA
and offices in Bradford,
because there are a number of companies
that are already starting to look at
and invest in their sites
where they can switch from gas to hydrogen.
So there's a lot of work taking place already
with industries and these that demand out there and actually I was having a
conversation with John prior to the meeting and it reverts back to same as
electrical charging points the property I live in have no off -street parking and
it's out to overcome the hurdle that I can have an electric vehicle that I can
that will be able to to charge and actually I'm sort of one eye in in the
future thinking actually what would an hydrogen vehicle be for me and I think there will be
quite a few people that are already thinking that way because a way to tackle change is
by a number of means and reducing our carbon footprint and actually using hydrogen as a
resources. So, you know, I just wonder what conversations are taking place with other
local authorities around their thoughts on carbon and hydrogen production and hydrogen
use.
Thank you. I'll take Martin and then Jack.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:35:32
Martyn Broadest, Advisory Representative (West Yorks Housing Partnership) - 1:35:34
I agree with the comments in the report that says the review of literature present also
indicates a limited or unlikely role
for hydrogen in domestic heating.
But I see that doesn't make its way into the principles.
And I think it should, that one of the principles
should be that the combined authorities does not
see a significant role for hydrogen in domestic heating,
simply so that that gives a very clear steer to partners
that where the future lies, where the financial support,
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:36:09
the policy support is going to be. Thank you. Jack and then Scott. Thanks
Chair. I just want to come up to Richard's point earlier. I think it was a
Cllr Jack Hemingway (Wakefield Council) - 1:36:17
fair challenge and I think as with anything we we try and dip our toes in
and make sure that we've considered all the options and looked at how feasible
things are going to be but in terms of some of our growth areas I'm thinking
particularly in the local context this half leads growth corridor in Wakefield
and the reliance on the motorway infrastructure there, HGV's.
The report doesn't say how proactive
the combined authority is gonna be
and the appetite for that is more about how we can support,
how we can influence, but at some point,
if we're gonna have a sort of regional growth,
regional industrial strategy,
we are gonna have to take a more proactive approach
on what comes next in terms of the green energy solution.
So I think we probably need to look in more detail
at hydrogen and what our ambition is gonna be
and at some point, take that brave step
more than dipping our toes in make a decision about are we going to take a more productive
role with this because businesses are going to need some clarity about long -term investment
in the future. Thank you. Scott and then Leah and then Gideon.
Thank you, Chair, and building on what Jack said, I think that's right. I think we need
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:37:18
Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council - 1:37:20
to focus on what our ask is and agree with Richard to an extent, but I guess I wouldn't
to lose sight of the fact that a brilliant what's been announced in
Bradford and I think I think that's a real sort of possibility of how we do
things going forward especially when it's about large freight but I would not
like to lose sight of the fact that actually this is still working under the
assumption of putting more cars on our roads when actually we do need to be
thinking around all of the things that happening at the moment with mass
transit and we know that's not going to hit all of our areas at once in fact
places like Wakefield, Kirklees and Colerdale are way down the way down the
pecking order in terms of that coming there. Franchising brilliant again a
number of years away so actually let's not lose sight of the fact that
investing in public transport which is being we're being played at the moment
by a lot of the providers in terms of pulling away services and having a
really strong and robust active travel offer which still isn't quite there is
actually key to getting us to where we want to go to so let's talk about
let's not lose sight of the wider thing if we are still talking about carbon and climate.
Thank you. Liam? Just a quick one really. Is hydrogen being considered for mass transit
as a way of powering that? And that's probably not.
John Clark (Private Sector Representative) - 1:38:44
I guess maybe I can answer that one a little bit. There are hydrogen powered trains, so
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:38:49
John Clark (Private Sector Representative) - 1:38:49
There are trains which are using either fuel cells as a mechanism
or even in hydrogen in an internal combustion engine.
So they are being developed in that form and also for buses.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:39:03
Thank you.
Gideon, I think is next.
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 1:39:12
Yeah, if we're going to go for green hydrogen, I'll stress the green bit on this.
We also need to think about the energy that that's going to take
to actually convert to green hydrogen. So if we're going to do that then we need
to think about the the initial energy input in the first place to be able to
convert this. So that takes us down the thoughts of how much thought we've done
on onshore wind and other forms of renewable energy that we're on
electricity in particular that is actually going to create this hydrogen
Because it doesn't come out of its not a thing
But not quite
Thank you perhaps if I could just bring to the party some some thoughts
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:40:01
One of one of the things that
I'm interested in and you touched on it in your verbal introduction for me in terms of
of the combined authorities across the country.
I know, for example, the East Midlands Combined Authority,
Derby, Heavy Rail, and various other large industries
there taking a particular interest
in the potential of hydrogen.
And Rich is absolutely right.
We are not the leaders here, but we
need to basically work towards our position, which
in some ways is what the paper is saying.
We need to do our investigations.
We need to have further discussions.
We need to come to a position as the authority,
as combined authority,
entirely take the points that are being made
and things like the M62 going through
our combined authority area, heavy rail,
those industrial clusters that we've been talking about
as part of our growth and productivity strategy.
So we need to begin to really flesh out
some of those early ideas
and we need to do it at a reasonable pace.
And of course, also the work that's going on
and the interesting work that's going on in Bradford
in relation to hydrogen.
I'm just wondering, in terms of this paper,
we're being asked to note it and consider further.
And we're grateful for the work that's
been done in terms of the investigation.
I do think we need to return to this particular topic, really,
and perhaps some of the view in terms of energy generation rather than energy usage in terms
of across the country, some of that discussion about East Coast and so on, just to take more
of a view in terms of where we might want to go in relation to this, and also whether
there is an opportunity for discussion of this at some of the other combined authority
committees in terms of industrial strategy skills, for example, and growth
more generally. So I think this is the beginning of that discussion. We need a
wider discussion.
Mr Jason WIllis (Northern Gas Networks) - 1:42:22
Jason. Yes, sorry, just a quick comment on that. It was mentioned East Coast hydrogen
and the Bradford scheme.
At NGN we are taking the lead on East Coast hydrogen.
We are, our sister currently, NGN,
is looking at industrial applications of hydrogen
across the region and wider.
So NGN is quite, we're based in Leeds,
we're quite willing to sit,
and our sister company is also based in Leeds,
so quite willing to sit down and discuss this further
and look at the pathways that we can assist with.
Thank you, Jason.
Scott, something very quick?
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:43:04
Yeah, just a very quick one, just topical
Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council - 1:43:06
in different areas.
So we saw a news article recently
about hydrogen being a potential headache for water
availability.
So I'm just wondering if Yorkshire Water are
live to those conversations, given what
we've talked about earlier.
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:43:29
Okay, well let's pick some of this up to be continued, I think.
Yes, thank you.
Okay, it's our last item on the agenda and that's the draft climate and environment plan

10 Draft Climate and Environment Plan

And some of you will have had, on the committee,
will have had a letter from Friends of the Earth
and Green New Deal and other organizations
just in the last, I think, barely 24 hours.
And in Noam's introduction to this,
I've asked him just to perhaps touch
on some of the responses to points raised in that letter.
But clearly, having written that letter,
those organizations will get full written response
in due course.
I'm going to hand over to Noel just to introduce the draft climate and environment plan.
Don't switch me off.
Afternoon everybody. So very quickly, I'll just run you through the paper and some key points.
Noel Collings, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:44:33
As you've seen the paper is really about just giving an update on where we're at with the development of the new climate and environment plan.
You'll have seen that that is split into two parts.
One is kind of reflecting on some notable achievements from the last plan and how that's shaped up and what we've delivered over the last few years.
But the real piece here is really around looking forward to how the new plan is shaping up and what that looks like.
So I'm not going to touch on those achievements because they're all in the paper, you'll have all read those.
But I will give that quick summary, picking up on the points that Councillor Scullion has mentioned in terms of the letters we've had from Friends of the Earth
in terms of the new climate environment plan.
So the approach we're taking with the new plan,
as some of you are aware, is very much looking
to put in place a framework that gives us longevity
up to the 2038 target, so making sure that what we are
putting in place now doesn't mean that in four years' time
we have to rip up the real book and have to go and look
at what does a framework look like,
what do objectives look like now.
So we're trying to, and the figure one within the report
itself covers what we hope will be a framework that has that longevity to 2038. So what is
in there we don't anticipate will change greatly over the time period up to 2038 and what is
relevant there and now will be relevant when we get to that point in time. But it also
will focus on, you know, that's a long way in the future, well it's not too long in the
but it's a time period. The plan also looks at this in a way that says in the next four
years align to the mayoral term of office what are the things that we're going to look
at doing and we've talked about a lot of those already as part of the committee meeting so
it's not as though some of this will come as an absolute surprise to people, you know
it's things that we've already set in train, we're already in motion in terms of delivering
against that. It's underpinned, it's not coming going like that in the air or anything like
that, it is very much underpinned by our refreshed carbon emission reduction pathways, our evidence
base, so you're all very very familiar with the previous evidence base that we did that
looked at how did we get to 2038, what are the pathways. The last time we did that there
was three different pathways that would get us towards 2038 because of where we find ourselves
now and where we think there is more confidence about the technologies that will get us there,
there is only one pathway that we have actually, when you've all seen some of that evidence
base, you will see that we only have one, which is classified as our maximum ambition
pathway. That isn't a completely new thing, it builds on the maximum ambition pathway
that we did last time so it is very much a refresh not a rip up the reel book and
do something different so it's very much following on from what we've done
previously and so just to kind of reassure that and and in terms of that
evidence space the intention is that once the climate environment plan is
published and we're looking at spring 2025 we will also publish that evidence
space alongside it so you can look at both pieces together and see how we have
come to the conclusion and the activities that are actually in that document. This isn't
standalone, you know, it's got to talk to other documents, other strategies, what's
happening at government level, what's happening within our local authorities. Therefore it's
been framed and it's been produced in a way that is aligned with what we have existing
and emerging in terms of our plans and strategies. So to reference a few, the West Yorkshire
plan, our local growth plan that's emerging, but also the local transport
plan and that alignment is not one way. It goes both ways from in terms of the
LTP will take the local transport plan, sorry, will take its lead from some of
the things that are actually in the climate and environment plan. So it's not
a one -way traffic on this, you know, we are designing this in a way that really
does speak to everything that we're kind of doing across West Yorkshire.
It is a slight departure from the previous planning that it's focused very much about what is in the control and influence of combined authorities and local authorities.
So the previous one was broader, it's probably fair to say, than that, but we now recognise that trying to do everything is just not possible.
so we need to be focused on the things that are going to give us the biggest
kind of carbon bang for our buck almost but also the areas in which we can
actually dry fold and deliver change and so it's very much framed in that context
as well so to give you some examples of where that might be particularly around
transport particularly around housing so you've already heard about the kind of
the home energy West Yorkshire programme and the great work that's happening
there but you know on the transport side of things that's equally apparent in
in terms of the work that we're doing there,
to pick up some of Councillor Paterson's points
around getting people out of cars
and onto the public transport system.
Our audience for this, again, is a little bit more focused
than what we did last time in terms of it's framed
for ourselves, our local authority partners,
key stakeholders, and the government as well.
We shouldn't really forget about needing
to position ourselves.
We know we need more to move forward on this agenda.
Therefore, we need to speak to government in terms of what we're after.
It's not just, as I say, us sitting in a darkened room developing this, it's being co -developed
and co -designed with our local authority partners and key stakeholders as well.
So we've run various different workshops, we've gone to lots of meetings in terms of
informing the content and it reflects, as I've said, ongoing activity that we're doing
around the region but areas of need where we think there are market failures there as
well. Although I've talked about us getting to publishing in spring 2025 that doesn't
mean to say that we're just running headlong into that. What we want to do is talk to people,
engage with people prior to publication so when we do get to publication we have a much
stronger and robust document.
So the intention is that we will go out for a period
of engagement quite shortly with our partners
and stakeholders to understand three things really.
Views on the frameworks or does it really have
that longevity up to 2038?
Does it really reflect the activity that we need
to be doing now?
We think it does.
We do reflect what it is that we've heard back
from stakeholders so far, so we think it does that job.
But also, we want to test out how stakeholders, how partners can help deliver the plan as
well to reflect the fact that it's not just the combined authority, it's not just local
authorities in this.
This is a broader piece that everybody has to kind of contribute to.
As I said, we hope to begin kind of that process of engagement very, very shortly and the information
will be shared with this committee outside of the meetings but it will also be shared
on our voice page for anybody to access as well. Thank you very much chair.
Thank you Noel and we look forward to the next stages. I'm really pleased to say although
it sounds like in some ways a kind of downgrading but it really isn't. The kind of more limited
focus I think is really important. I've had this view that there is a real
challenge in terms of committees like this and work like this of mission creep
you know you begin to want to influence the whole the whole world and actually
being more limited in scope narrowing that focus I think really helps and I
think it really helps in terms of explaining to the public because we're a
public sector body and the money we've got comes from national government
they're from our taxis nationally,
or it comes from local government,
from our local council tax.
And so I'm always asking the question,
when we look at each of these schemes where we spend money,
is basically what is the role
of the public sector intervention here?
This is a public sector body,
what is the role of our intervention here?
Is it about market failure?
Is it about levering in different kinds of funding?
Is it about inequalities in tackling poverty
and inequalities and some of the other missions
of both the government and the combined authority?
Where do you spend public sector money?
And the danger is always that you try and do too much
and try and change the world and therefore achieve nothing.
So I like very much the focus in terms of
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:53:57
where we're actually going to concentrate that money
and some of the things that Noel talked about in terms of transport.
My goodness, how important is transport for West Yorkshire
and for carbon reduction in particular,
housing issues for us to really focus on.
So I welcome that and I don't think we need to be defensive about that actually.
MDL Skidian.
Yeah, thank you and thanks for the report.
I have had a chance to go through some of it
Gideon Richards (Private Sector Representative) - 1:54:27
before and made some comments. I think two things for me. One is it's great that we're
narrowing down, we're focusing what we're doing, but we've still got the 2038 target and where does,
like if you're going to focus it down, there's that other chunk of it that you're talking about
and we need to make sure that it's just transparent and clear we're doing that. And I think the other
thing and I mentioned it to Noel before but when we've changed we've changed the
baseline now effectively because of the new way we're reporting on it and I
think we need to be clear what's happened to the last five years and make
sure that all of that is very transparent because people will say well
you've had it for five years what's happened why you at this point now so
just be nice to see that really clear and understood at the front thank you
That transparency is very important.
I see nobody else.
Scott?
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:55:28
Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the report and bringing out some of the questions that
were perhaps hovering in the air anyway.
Cllr Scott Patient Calderdale Council - 1:55:38
So I won't repeat those.
Just a few things on it.
I mean, obviously, really welcome the hyper -focusing down on Matt's ambition, I think, given some
of the stories we heard globally and reports from the likes of IPCC and the
CCC etc and things happening overseas of all give us pause and concern at
the moment so having Matt's ambition I think is critical at the moment. I guess
when it comes to consultation and this is a hardy perennial for anyone working
in local government or further afield is the idea of consultation and making
sure that hits where it needs to and the idea that consultation is just as
important as co -design so it's the not and, it's the and not or. I do hope people in the
gallery and who I'm sure is passionate about this as many of us are do help
drive that consultation to get to the places that it really needs to get to
not just the people who naturally fill in forms but you know doing that work
with young people who aren't so inclined to you know fill out lengthy
consultations and help guide them through the process as should we be doing
as well and obviously marginalized underrepresented communities too and
making sure everyone hears their voice especially in the age of disinformation
is critical at the moment. I think as well there's a bit here about how to
work effectively as well and what that crossover looks like and there's so much
good work happening in our LAs we've obviously got our own climate action
plan or we're not unique with that. Ditto Yorkshire Humber Climate Committee have
recently had their launch of their refreshed plan and I do appreciate it's
absolutely impossible to join it all up with the best will in the world and I'm
sure with infinite finances we'd be absolutely flying here but I wonder
having taken part in some of the climate conversations with Tracy earlier in the
year which were great in terms of like trying to reach different people
and doing some of that focus.
If some of that coordinating could be resourced,
then I think that would really be the trick
in helping get this to where it needs to get to.
Thank you.
Is that a pitch for funding for a TikTok video?
LAUGHTER
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:57:53
Liz?
Thank you.
It's really great that you mentioned
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:58:02
the Yorkshire Humber Climate Commission, their report.
Liz Hunter, Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:58:03
And if everybody hasn't seen it will circulate it to colleagues
So if we take that as an action is miles so that everybody has sighted that and it's really important as you say to join
Up, I think your point about the consultation. I think what we were thinking for this is that
Trying to consult people on a plan is one thing and actually what we want to have a conversation with our partners about
Delivering the plan and then there would be other them other ways of engaging the wider public of some of the things
that we've talked about today.
So the one -stop shop that's coming forward
in terms of that trusted advice.
We were talking about flooding.
So depending on any further thoughts on this,
we thought that the climate conversation that you mentioned
that we'd had already previously this year
gave us some great information.
And we kind of feel like we've talked so many about so many
things today.
We kind of know what we need to do and kind of crack on.
And actually, we need to take our partners with us.
So we want to do the partner bit next,
and then think about how we engage the wider public
in some more specific things rather than on a plan.
But we'll happily take views on that.
But that's our view.
And definitely welcome anybody championing the schemes
that we've already got in play.
You mentioned, Cher, earlier about different forums
and whatnot.
So actually, people want to see action.
And if we can, if colleagues want
to share any of the grant scheme for SMEs or whatnot,
do feel free to come to us if you don't feel
that you've got that information so that you can then share it
out will be super helpful.
Thank you, Liz.
Well, at this point, I think we're
Cllr Jane Scullion (Calderdale Council) - 1:59:40
being asked to note the update.
And we wait with bated breath for the next stage,
and particularly comments on what Noel asked for in terms
of the longevity of such a plan, and just to unpack that
and just challenge it and to feed back to Noel and colleagues in the combined authority,
you know, is it future -proofed enough and just comments around some of those things
actually I think would be very helpful.
And we wait for the further consultation and engagement.
Okay, we're noting that update, folks.
I'm astonished, absolutely astonished by the time in relation to this meeting.
It's never happened before.
So that brings to an end the formal part of the meeting.
The only thing I've got is the date of the next meeting, which is not until the 25th
of March, 2025.
We have no elections, either mayoral or local council elections in 2025.
So that's a tremendous relief.
We will not be having the usual problems of electioneering
and so on.
So we can all relax and behave like adult human beings
at that point, the politicians love.
So thank you very much for your contributions to that agenda.
Really appreciate it and look forward to seeing you.
And I know it's only November, but may I
be the first to wish you a very good Christmas and season.
Thank you.