Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee - Friday 26 January 2024, 10:00am - Resources Tab - Start video at 0:03:55 - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Transport and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee
Friday, 26th January 2024 at 10:00am 

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  1. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  2. Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Tony Hames
  4. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  5. Cllr Charlie Keith
  6. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  7. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  8. Cllr Charlie Keith
  9. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  10. Cllr Harry McCarthy
  11. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  12. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
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  1. Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
  2. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
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Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  2. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  3. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  4. Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
  6. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  7. Cllr Anna Watson
  8. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  9. Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer)
  11. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  12. Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  13. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  15. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  16. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  17. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  18. Cllr Charlie Keith
  19. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  20. Cllr Charlie Keith
  21. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  22. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  23. Cllr Tony Hames
  24. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  25. Cllr Dot Foster
  26. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  27. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  28. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  29. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  30. Cllr Charlie Keith
  31. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  32. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  33. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  34. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  35. Cllr Dave Merrett
  36. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  37. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  38. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
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  1. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  2. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  3. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  4. Andrew Fitzpatrick
  5. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  6. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  7. Cllr Andrew Pinnock
  8. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  9. Andrew Fitzpatrick
  10. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  11. Cllr Charlie Keith
  12. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  13. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  14. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  15. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  16. Cllr Dot Foster
  17. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  18. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  19. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  20. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  21. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  22. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  23. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  24. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  25. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  26. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  27. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  28. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  29. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  30. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  31. Cllr Dave Merrett
  32. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  33. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  34. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  35. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  36. Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  37. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
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  1. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  3. Cllr Anna Watson
  4. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  6. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  7. Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council)
  8. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  9. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  11. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  12. Cllr Dave Merrett
  13. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  15. Cllr Tony Hames
  16. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  17. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  18. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  19. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  20. Cllr Tony Hames
  21. Cllr Izaak Wilson
  22. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  23. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  24. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  25. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  26. Cllr Harry McCarthy
  27. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  28. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  29. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  30. Cllr Charlie Keith
  31. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  32. Cllr Dot Foster
  33. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  34. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  35. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  36. Simon Warburton, Executive Director (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  37. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
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  1. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  2. Cllr Dave Merrett
  3. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
  4. Cllr Joanne Dodds
  5. Cllr Dave Merrett
  6. Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair)
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  1. Webcast Finished

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:00:00
welcome to also 20 members of the public who are joining us today and anyone in the gallery, and if you're watching this meeting online, you welcome to download papers, you just go to West Yorkshire Combined Authority there is a pack there under the date so yeah welcome OK so for the benefits of everyone joining just like to introduce ourselves and Councillor Amanda Parsons wholesale from a wooly wards in Calderdale ever to
Katy Bourne Scrutiny Officer.
Jessie Wright, scrutiny spot officer
Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:00:40
donated Wakefield Council.
Good morning and, I suppose from at least Councillor.
Cllr Tony Hames - 0:00:49
moaning and Katie Brooks on the Leeds games for as well.
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 0:00:54
Good morning and about former Bradford councillor.
Councillor Keith Wakefield, Metropolitan District, solid Stewart, do I
Cllr Charlie Keith - 0:01:03
presume you are building?
our Comolli manager, Tim Lawrence and one officer Combined Authority,
Simon Warburton - 0:01:09
I'm the head of transport planning and appraisal for the mass transit programme, and I'm Simon Watson am Executive Director for Transport.
make volunteering interim director of transport operations Combined
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:01:22
Authority.
Councillor John Keith Wakefield.
Cllr Charlie Keith - 0:01:26
Good morning, Joanne Dodds from Bradford Council Councillor.
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:01:34
date merit from City of York Council.
Harry McCarthy from combine Ward and Carclaze.
Cllr Harry McCarthy - 0:01:41
dot Foster and sub-region culture.
Councillor Andrew Cleckheaton ward correctly.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:01:48
sir, thank you, Members, thank you, officers for joining us, okay, apologies.

1 Apologies for absence

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:01:55
can I ask Katie so we've had apologies from Councillors over Newton
Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:02:02
Councillor in kitchen Councillor, Joe Atkinson, Councillor Mark Thompson and Councillor Selby accounts.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:02:09
thank you and possible exclusion of press and public health.

2 Declarations of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

thank you, OK, so meeting.

3 Possible exclusion of the press and public

4 Minutes of the meeting held on 1 December 2023

5 Chair's comments and update

Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:02:19
of the last minute of the last meeting held with our Mayor, Tracy Brabin on the 1st of December, yes, those Members who were present, who would like to propose those minutes or propose that the we accept them, thank you and second Councillor Foster to second, thank you members OK chairs report,
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:02:43
we've got a very full agenda this morning, Members so.
I am just going to say that we are still in conversation with other chairs around the UK about the scrutiny protocol.
I know some of you will be aware that we are having a meeting about that later on on Monday, thank you, Keighley for Councillor Brooks, for joining to join him in that.
so we'll be if there's anything you want to feedback, I just want to say it's really important that we do that now because once it does go live, then yeah that we need to, we need to actually we have, we need to be ready for it OK so not gonna open a discussion about that now.
or a year.
face it, so we've got devolution coming upon the agenda so we can have a conversation about that is very much connected, the way we structure, our scrutiny will basically feed into the devolution, devolution level for

6 Level 4 Devolution

so next item, then Item number 6, now we've only really got 20 minutes on this 15 20 minutes, so if I can ask people to just keep the the questions quite short and for also officers to be quite brief if you count but direct okay obviously as devolution unfolds scrutiny is really important, as we said so,
we are aware that this is is gonna, be a tool for accountability, basically.
this committee, alongside other committees, are gonna be really important in that process.
we've decided to bring this to our meeting today, because if you have a look at the papers on devolution, although some of the main subjects are housing transport, including bus rail, integrated Re, integrated ticketing,
active travel highways n climate that 0 there's there's a lot in their members, so we thought it was important to bring it here today.
I'd like to thank your team for producing these papers.
it's it's not something that obviously that we talk about, because it's not really.
in our committee, so I am aware that Carol Keller does return the background and overview for us with is there anything you would like to add Alan.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:05:21
sorry, Simon, is there anything you would like to add to T judge J or
Simon Warburton - 0:05:25
a very brief brief, some richer, so I I think Members are all aware of of the fact that since we created mayoral combined authorities, there had been a progressive set of discussions and at different points deals with central government all around looking to draw down further devolved.
control of of budgets and decision making.
down to a city region where level those discussions had been continuing through 2023 and in November of last year, government set out what it's called A level 4 devolution framework and edit dresses the opportunity for.
city regions to have additional, largely sort of de ring fenced control over a number of off of different areas, but it does also inter make certain demands of city regions around models of or assurance, in particular, and as the table at paragraph 2.7,
sets out there are a number of areas that we can now explore, with government around a more a single funded settlement capital funding settlement that is for West Yorkshire, a number of aspects around our transport arrangements, including the devolution of the bus service operators grant, which is an area that is of particular interest to us in preparation for for bus reform.
additional.
opportunity to move forward and employment, skills, housing and land.
net-zero and also a public health, and there was a meeting of the finance resources and
corporate Committee last week.
which approved, in principle, an application around the framework which at this stage is a is a statement of intent
that then allows for further
engagement between ourselves is, as as chief officers in West Yorkshire, and the senior officials have irrelevant departments so that we can flesh out, specifically what would the detail of a level 4 agreement look like for for for West Yorkshire and I'll pass by Matt Kelly now who can just talk through?
the scrutiny protocol arrangements that set out from 2.2 1 onwards, thank you so.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:08:21
thank you Chair.
Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:08:29
as has been said, is the m level for devolution is requires eligible
Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:08:35
institutions like the demand for it to be and compliant with the newly published scrutiny protocol at the Corporate Scrutiny Committee meeting in November, a joint working group of the three scrutiny committees was established through volunteers were asked for and good,
got our volunteers and we have two sessions planned in next week and in February.
and the plan is to go through each of the key principles on the 2.2 9 page 14 and make recommendations for each one all the authority.
OK in the how complainant is at the moment and what improvements or changes could be made.
the working group for the other members on that yeah, the members are listed on 2.3 for if anyone else wants to be involved, just let me know e-mail us if you're available at the meeting dates the virtual meetings, so by all means come along, otherwise you can feed into me or to any of the members or to the Chair of the Corporate Scrutiny Committee. The initial conclusions will be circulated next week at some point and in order to feed into the final report and then the final rebuttal goods Corporate Scrutiny Committee for
approval recommendations and then to the Combined Authority, because it's the combined authority that's responsible for governance, actually establishing governance and scrutiny arrangements.
satisfied with any appearance of invoices.
if I can just add.
if we have a look at that list, we've got two of us from the transport
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:10:02
and infrastructure, we've got three members from corporate and there's four members from economy, so there's definitely more spaces for us to join if anybody else would like to be involved in this conversation, it's something that's gonna be set up for the future. Combined authorities have become a must if they want to standardise the way that we do this process, so if anyone would like to to join and I would really appreciate more people coming forward from transport and infrastructure,
working groups currently scheduled to meet on 29th of January and 16th of February, and aims to complete its report recommendations following that consultation with some scrutiny members and other stakeholders for submission on the 8th of March.
yes, what that I'm sorry, the 1st of March.
chairs from around the UK, as I said at a meeting this morning and I think Councillor Anderson is meeting with those with those chairs as someone, unfortunately I competency plates so add yeah, if anyone would like to join them or we would really appreciate that has anyone got any questions
Councillor Mowat, thanks Chair and one other thing I think.
if you can, let us know the times on the 29th, that would be handy, so can lead, if you can, just let us know that'd be great, because
Cllr Anna Watson - 0:11:32
it is a Monday and I might have some availability, I do have concerns with, I mean, we've got a couple of things, one is the proposal that there would only be one Scrutiny Committee, I don't I think.
you know, we've got, we've got the committees haven't we we've got as it's the three committees and at the moment we've got three Scrutiny, support those and I think, to allow councillors to be able to build expertise and knowledge in in quite a lot of detail on a certain area. I think having different scrutiny committees for the different areas is really important, which is trying to think about. You know how you would be able to sort it like be across the piece, because even our officers are not across the piece. I mean, you know, Simon is brilliantly detailed at transport, and I imagine he understands some of the other issues but to think that you can have councillors who we've got other roles within our own local authority and
and also some of us also do other jobs as well.
I've I feel that that's that's that's something that's a bit too far, and I'd like that to be explored, I also feel I just wondered if, because if there was only one committee, it would mean that?
you'd only have certain Councillors who might be able to have the time to do that, so would we be excluding, it, wouldn't be as accessible, potentially you wouldn't get diversity of thought, it could be, and not to any of you who may be retired. It could only be that some of the people who retired would be able to join that because it would be huge amounts of work to stay on top of everything so I do have I'm just interested to know
you know, thoughts on that, if there's been any sort of conversation on that, the other thing that I'd just like to know if before kind of WYCA would go for the next level of devolution is that there had to be a public consultation on that, so how is the public involved in any decision-making that goes on and is there a role for the public also to feed in about how they think that good scrutiny would look like with a new a new devolved deal?
that's a good question, just the public even know about scrutiny, I've
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:13:49
got a pen in Mohammed here, from the Centre for governance and scrutiny that went on some draining, but until I started this role I think many of you would agree, you know not. Many of our residents are aware that there is this level of scrutiny or due diligence so that we do actually have in place.
so and I think there are, you know, unfortunately, the me media doesn't help to say, and we would really like it to help Surrey.
if you you know, we need to know that that scrutinise it is, this is why it's important because public funding needs to be scrutinised so yeah, thank you for your comments, and would you like to comment on that, not on about the I've just think about single?
it's the number one topic for debate on Monday, it's 9 30, the meeting
Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:14:40
them pay them on Microsoft Teams, I'll forward details of it and lots of jobs, but all the concerns that you've listed, how the things will put discussion isn't to avoid.
Menik I can all of its being taken into account, is the point there are good reasons for why it's been suggested by government, and why overall mayoral combined authorities like Greater Manchester East to have three committees and went back to 1 m following independent reviews, et cetera.
do anything, I'll say, is essentially.
Mr Khaled Berroum (Scrutiny Officer) - 0:15:12
the way scrutiny has to be done at this level, and regional strategic level is very different to how it should be done at a local level, or local councils might be more used to say what is prior to the government is trying to do essentially through this protocol is establish that difference in different ways of working, but any report that is produced will have all this reasoning in it and it will all the different options. There's a bunch of different options on
that can be debated and will be brought back.
is that satisfactory?
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:15:46
that's all I can say about the public, well, sorry, that's a.
Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:15:50
the consultation, so to my knowledge.
Simon Warburton - 0:15:53
no, I don't think that that there is
any requirement for a public consultation, clearly at the point that.
the Combined Authority was first established that they did that that scheme was the subject of a public consultation and but I think these stages are seen as.
a continued evolution or any fact of
off of the
of the governance arrangements are across city regions.
thank you so.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:16:31
Kelly, F Councillor, Bucks.
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 0:16:36
how much not yes very quickly, how much more money are, we likely to get for affordable housing, and will any powers be removed from councils to give to the Mayoral Authority to achieve the deal, because why obviously, that's not devolution?
Simon Warburton - 0:16:57
so that that that the very point and as as has been debated at length,
the the government has been clear that level 4 deals do not in themselves bring any new money, what they are, what they do, is to remove ring fences around existing pots of money so that we can use them more flexibly.
overtime which which brings its advantages.
in or across a complex city region where, inevitably, programmes that are set out in, say, a five-year plan actually change in terms of their time in their definition as those for those five years where on there are a couple of areas, certainly within Transport.
where we have been very clear to raise with government our queries as to whether they are really necessary in those two areas in particular have been around and a suggestion of some closer form of.
unification around taxi licensing powers, we we we, we do not see that that is needed.
within West Yorkshire and indeed worrying consort with other city regions Ed, in that regard.
and
the second area is around the concept of a Merryll direction over highways elements on the Key route Network, again we've got very close.
working arrangement in place across the five authorities in West Yorkshire and we'd write one Local Transport Plan with one set of transport policies.
and therefore we also don't see the need for that the whole purpose of the statement of intent is to then give us the opportunity to engage through exactly those sorts of issues, but leaders have been very clear with us that there is a very clear principle here, which is this is about devolution down from government not consolidation up from,
localities.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:19:19
thank you and just thinking about the time situation.
I've got like for more people, it's is that OK if there's anything you want to take up afterwards, you wanna make some notes and we can always go back afterwards, Councillor Holmes will I'm sure I'll look a
Cllr Charlie Keith - 0:19:35
little bit of joined-up thinking here I'm starting off with transport and under devolution we've got to accept that without the control as it says, so we've got to accept we've got to accept that as a whole and then then we move on.
we move on Joe the fact that, with the germination of HS2, the government's sort of promise that the money would be available to be spent in in areas is that gonna be safeguarded for transport and then the next one is.
the next, the next part, is.
is it said in the detail that defined and coordinated PI road network, which is gonna, be led by the Mayor?
and then the next bit where I'm following on is single local transport funding settlement, in line with principles set out in the level form, does that mean, does that mean we as a local authority if we have identified a single transport project that we need to act on, are we gonna are we gonna have to apply or what's the terms of reference for what it was getting that funding from this big pot that's going to magically appear?
thank you.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:20:59
so.
Cllr Charlie Keith - 0:21:03
2 t t to come with those in in reversal, so that the the the intention
Simon Warburton - 0:21:07
is exactly that, so if you look across the capital programme that we've got for transport in West Yorkshire, at present, we've got somewhere in the order of about 2 billion pounds worth of a of a capital programme that that rolls itself forward to.
2027 2028
and but each each part of that programme at the moment is attached to a particular government funding stream or or a historic funding stream that we set up so that the West Yorkshire Plus Transport Fund we've got situated in sustainable transport settlement, we've got transforming cities fund, we've got various different incarnations of active travel funded, they all come with their own rules, they all come with their own timescales and they restrict our ability to move money around
the ability for us to move to one single transport capital settlement means that we can then better manage our money year on year to address the the issues that most ma most present themselves, so I made the reference before to, if you think, over a five-year or indeed tenure capital spending programme there will be transport schemes where the local highway schemes,
or other elements that will have been scheduled to fit with a commercial development, housing, development or whatever it might be, that will inevitably move around in terms of the timescales that it actually happens with it and therefore, if we're able to identify that move money around so that we can actually spend more of our money up from in a timely way, then then that's a bit advantage to us. In terms of the question around HS2 to government set out Network North
and there's an awful lot of work that is taking place between my teams and a de f t at the moment to properly understand what Network North actually means for us, we know one very significant benefit, which is continued support for the West Yorkshire mass transit programme are going to come on to talk about that shortly, we know that there are some very positive statements in there around elements such as the new station.
in Bradford, but there is an awful lot more work for us to do for me to be able to specifically say to you, I know all of the money is passport, it is why it's Transport, and I know exactly what that means for West Yorkshire.
thanks for that.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:23:45
and I notice Councillor Wilson has handled then put his hand down.
we have a question.
we're very early in this, aren't we, so I mean I've got lots of thoughts, but I'm assuming there'll be a more of a chance for us to
Cllr Tony Hames - 0:23:59
input data, that's fine, yeah, thanks, thank you, OK thanks.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:24:04
Cllr Dot Foster - 0:24:11
no, no, no, it's fine, it's very, it's just, very, very quick thing, can you please explain what gainshare gateway reviews means in words, but words can be understood by somebody who hasn't got a clue, thank you.
Simon Warburton - 0:24:26
so what one of the were one of the parts of a previous devolution arrangement that was put in place between West Yorkshire and government was a recognition that the programmes that we are delivered at the moment are partly with local contributions, are improving productivity and therefore return more money back into the Exchequer and we secure an additional funding stream from the Treasury.
in return for that, and that's that that's what the term gainshare comes from, so, in other words, UK plc games as a result of the productivity benefits that we deliver and we get, and we get a share of that back periodically.
that arrangement has to go through a gateway review process with central government, it has become quite a bureaucratic process and we're looking to streamline the bureaucracy around it.
thanks to the fund of bureaucracy and okay.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:25:29
looking at the readiness conditions from your opinion, do you think we're ready?
so yeah, I think we do believe that we are, we've got very, we've got
Simon Warburton - 0:25:43
very robust assurance processes in place, particularly around our capital programmes, with we've regularly been commanded by government.
in that regard, we are very strong audit and assurance regime in place that are or are at the governance level or as well, I think the combined authorities now well recognised as an established governance arrangement that understands how to.
by risk or at a city region level, and we have got some very strong working networks in place with our colleagues in local authorities so yeah, we do feel that we're ready to move forward. Thank you,
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:26:33
Councillor Keith, yes, thank you that it's basically probably a little
Cllr Charlie Keith - 0:26:40
bit of a warning, because everything the the the that my experience with devolution means that particularly what we've experienced in the last 14 years is to give you 2 million pounds worth of liability and work in a million pounds to do it with one, and so it just basically clears their books. Who believes you with a lot of work, what I'm wanting is, and I think, particularly on transport, so this is where the scrutiny has got to be quite loaded towards financial and and and to transport, is, because what we need is some benchmarking between different areas like Greater Manchester ourselves
in particular, Greater London to make sure that transport is equal across the piece.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:27:29
thank you, would you like to yeah, so it's an incredibly important
Simon Warburton - 0:27:33
point, so so we we want to be very, very clear in terms of what performance management regime would look like around a level 4 devolution deal.
we are also want to make sure that it is supported by an ongoing conversation going into the next spending review, whichever government oversees.
that that spending review that recognises whole lifecycle costs, particularly associated with with transport schemes, so you know, we've set out very clearly and consistently in a and the Mayor, and the Combined Authority have as well that we've we've seen some really good strides forward in terms of capital funding, particularly for for transport over recent years.
but the revenue funding regimes are the ability for us to consistently secure funding for what might be the dollar elements like highways, maintenance and maintenance of assets, and has been much more challenging going forwards, are going to have to get the balance right in terms of a funded deal so that, as you quite rightly say Councillor, we aren't taken on an asset liability that we can't buy time into the future.
thank you, I know that this is a little bit rushed on it, but we will
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:29:01
be revisiting this, it's a bit something that we will look at again for those of you are quite new to this year, so last one, is it a quick one?
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:29:17
OK, I spoke through three things, one echo Councillor Watson's comments about the transparency, I think one of the principles for the scrutiny arrangements has to be public transparency and accountability
Cllr Dave Merrett - 0:29:28
and I think naturally include public speaking rights, it should ensure that there are clear arrangements for public access to documentation,
it means that, in terms of items that are private, there is always a covering paper that explains what is being y de, the generality of what will be in private papers.
echo the concern about the single scrutiny, I think.
I think the consequence will be.
as suggested that you'll end up with more elderly members, especially if there is no pay that is attached to it, people who are in work, it's just extra commitments x extra time off work, sorry, I think that there needs to be that to ensure that there is at least some ability to attend, but I actually think the consequence more likely is actually there will be less scrutiny because it becomes a unacceptable burden.
so I am very concerned about that, I think that's a fundamental flaw.
in the in, in the existing proposals, just on a nice at third point on taxes.
I agree, I don't think there's a need for centralisation in the way that suggested in this paper, but there is an issue with taxes.
yeah
because of the way that the legislation is now interpreted, you can end up with lots of taxes in your areas we have in York.
which aren't locally licensed we, we have probably actually the majority of private hire.
in York are not local, an awful lot licensed in Wolverhampton, a licensed private hire licensing Wolverhampton and in West Yorkshire.
and that actually makes it quite difficult for us to manage taxi issues in in in our city. So there are some real issues around taxes, but this what's it here is not. She's not the right set of answers. OK thanks thanks for that. I think we should make notes of this and bring
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:31:44
these things back if that's OK. So I certainly did just to reassure on
Simon Warburton - 0:31:52
the final point. So we with colleagues in other city regions, through the urban transport group, are pressing government. On that final point, it was a, it was a product of the 2015 deregulation Act
and
we are where we are all concerned about it, it is in all of the major metropolitan areas and it is something that we would like to see addressed thanks for that
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:32:17
so for those of you who are quite new to Scrutiny to this committee and there has always been a commitment to re to review the scrutiny process here in West Yorkshire.
during the Mayor's first term, so really this has come at a good time for for us all, so thank you, Members for your comments, it's something that we're gonna continue with as conversation on Monday, if anyone does want to join, then please.
yeah just jot jots, I'd just done an e-mail to coloured, and I'd really welcome more people from from this committee, thank you, members, okay item number 7, which,

7 Bus franchising and BSIP update

so if you just apologies, Members for the agenda which says bus, franchising and PCEP, update bus franchising will probably be at the next meeting, but thank you for bringing this back to us, congratulations on the success of the Mayor's Firs.
it's only a, I think, I made out as a 6% overall net gain, but at least it's a net gain, it's good, it's in the right direction, it's not creating a huge modal shift.
but it seemed some positive shifts anyway, so.
questions on Meyer's first right, so I'd like to invite Andrew Fitzpatrick, who has done all the work on the mayor's fares, to answer some questions for us Cinnamon anyone like to kick off and you would like to start.
OK, I'll stop.
so I've got a question and this is this is, I suppose, a little bit of a bugbear.
which one will ask first right.
first, OK, so we've been given another 11 million for men, as far as I'm wondering, after last meeting, when we were told that we'd spent over 22 million, do you think we've got enough funding to be able to continue through to 2025 with 11 million?
do I do you want to answer that, I'll I'll take that one DJ yeah, thank you.
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:34:39
so yeah, the the reason we've done that obviously, is to keep in step with the Department for Transport's national scheme, which runs up to the the end of this calendar year.
December 2024, so looking at the financial profile of the spend to date and at that timeline, then we feel that that 11 million from the phase 3 basic funding will be sufficient to keep us in step with the D F T and then are obviously in that period will look at look at the longer-term position in any exit strategy that we need to adopt, but yes, we do feel that that will be sufficient to keep us in step with the national scheme thanks to that I should add will a good idea that
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:35:23
it would figure in the plan Councillor,
dot
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:35:31
thank you just done, the the survey.
can't see anything, it were, the questions asked about a gym and other things, so we can look at if you know a certain age group, are certain community increased using the the boss?
o or transfer through the Mayor's affairs, and also did it have any effect on people that usually bar monthly Metro cards, costs may be being worked out, cheaper to use the the Mayor's fair's just wondered if there are any intelligence on that.
Andrew Fitzpatrick - 0:36:18
right. Sorry, yeah the question, so the Serbia itself was a, there was an online panel, so there's a bit of spectrum when it comes to research and that kind of gold-standard face-to-face interview alerts are raised as more expensive. The other end of the spectrum is a Twitter poll or something like this. This is somewhere in the middle. This is an online panel, so this is an opt-in incentivise panel a sample of 1,000 people, and it's the the sample, is aimed at turn up and go adult affairs. That is a 1965 brackets where only the results only cover that age group and the results are aligned to the to the census population data we have, so we have. We put quotas in and we have waited slightly to account for age, gender, district and ethnicity, not disability status, as we would normally do in other pieces of research. In terms of your question about what that means, I've got a few notes here, so so he said that there is a net gain as a
as you have just seen, younger people, so those aged between 19 and 30 were more likely to have increased their bus use, so before there was a 25% of the whole sample, it's that they're using the bus more than a year ago, so that goes up to 32%. For those aged between 19 and 30, we did ask about a range of ethnicities and people who identified as black black, British, Caribbean or African were more likely to have increased their bus use so that rises to 43%, increase in bus use, finally, relative to September 22 22 performance payers, and it's all relative to before then, we found that regularly users were more likely to have increased their bus use so that percentage is 39%, so the overall sample 25%. You can see certain kind of groups. Now that regular users, peace aligns with what D F T have released in their analysis of the the national confirm of the national scheme as well. So basically regular users and we've defined regular users as couldn't a piece of definition, people who use the bus at least once a week,
and that goes up to 39%. So what we find is the mayor's affairs has. There is a new trip generation which, if you can see in the pack, but also people who use a bus already, are using it more in relation to the at the effect on the cards. So in the Transport Committee papers on Monday, we have got some metrics in there that look at a particular kind of user groups, so we've got the under 19, we've got the we've got adult ticket types. You can see the trend in there in terms of kind of kind of the frequency of ticket types, whether the weeklies or monthlies that isn't in the pack, but we have got the date when it's needed to go away and have a have a look at. I think you were alluding to. Has there been a shift in terms of people shifting
I think it's I mean one of the main reasons why we did. This survey is because it is quite challenging to quantify the impact that the national and the local fare cap has had, simply because an account stresses enough, because we are still in recovery from the pandemic. When you look at overall patronage trends, it's really hard to disentangle to make that kind of attribution. We're not alone in this, and when you look at the the research that Greater Manchester have put out, you know they've found similar kind of difficulties in the attribution, and they're estimating about a 5% increase when they've done when they look to patronage and where they've looked at primary research to, so it's it's it's challenging the last point if that's OK just to give you a bit of context, is it here? You'll note that we only ask people to identify whether they had use the bus more the same or less than before mayor's fares. We didn't ask them to quantify specifically their uses usage. That in itself has been quite is quite challenging. So during COVID we've run a series of COVID-19, transport recovery, kind of surveys, and that's all on the internet you can see on the site on the internet. You can exhale that, and we did ask people to quantify, know what what, what mode you're using, which holidays we're using and as time went on, people working off the the results. Were you know, we found that people were struggling to
cast their minds back and maybe their circumstances have changed since before then, so that's part of the reason we didn't ask for specific kind of yeah.
quantities of exactly how, many days, a week, huge you change your
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:40:50
usage, thank you, thank you and Andrew yeah post COVID, we are still living in postcode times, aren't we, and I think it's important that we've put that into the landscape Councillor Pinnock, thank you.
under the one of the advantages of Mario Suarez is that if you if you
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:41:04
have become a regular bus user?
you, don't you?
you don't have to think about it, it's just 2 pounds, so so it that's
Cllr Andrew Pinnock - 0:41:13
that's easy, but my my main point really, as Andrew partly covered it.
is the question of of how on earth do quantify people who don't always go into work, maybe go once a week, twice a week, three times a week, certainly not every day it occurred to me this morning when I was on the bus.
if I'd been go coming on a bus that left Cleckheaton the 10 pass date, it would have been full when I, when I was in full-time work it was, it was half empty this morning.
so that's just an illustration, I I'd wonder if you could expand a bit on on how how we get round this problem, I know the government is trying to get civil servants to.
all civil service bosses to get their staff to work all the time from the office. I wish them good luck with that, but I don't know whether you know what the the trend might be in that direction, but it it or all I can say, is it just throws a huge dollop of uncertainty until the old the whole thing yeah, thank you, and I just want to say as well that it's got a cough inflicted, isn't it, because we've got we want climate change Net Zero on one side and then the other side of it is let's all go to work
in officers and staff. So there's something finding the balance and that isn't there with. Would you like to add that I'm just aware that I've got four or five people, I can just a little bit of context and
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:43:01
so they can you meet the this survey sits in alongside a suite of
Andrew Fitzpatrick - 0:43:05
other kind of primary research, I think to watch out for is that we're currently in fieldwork for our annual public perceptions of transport survey. Those results and this year's results will be only in the public domain when we ask about mode and frequency of use. That question specifically had about
returning to return to the workplace, I suppose, will return to the pre that previously at workplace, there are quite interesting results when we've done the COVID-19 transport recovery surveys. We needed eight waves of those, and I think from recollection, we got to the point at the end of it, where around about one in 11 people were effectively saying that they cannot continually work from home and the rest of them were opting for. More of a hybrid can have one to three days, which is kind of what you see in terms of in anecdotal evidence when you when you're travelling across a week, thanks for that, okay, Councillor Holmes
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:43:50
that's your.
I just want to.
Cllr Charlie Keith - 0:43:55
when you look at this in a in a overall manner, the majority of the money has been spent on MOT fares, and there's just one element of it being a bit of a reward system for people that use the buses.
the problem. I have got the problem I have got in Pontefract. The ward in Wakefield is that I need something more than that to persuade people to stop using the cars, and the fact is we have a very, very poor system bus service in Pontefract and we also have got we've got a congestion problem now in Pontefract, so the buses that are being in service are getting delayed travelling times, so the service, the bus service, is sort of collapsing round zeroes. If you understand what I mean, I think that the Stonefield radical changes, I think the majority of the money we're spending should be on improving the bus service is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I think that people would use the buses, I mean, if I would just say to anybody in Pontefract one or use bus, and they say Well, what was what was?
this. Is this a situ you can't tell when you travel travelling abroad, for example, the system about security means you can buy a ticket to go on a bus you can buy in any shop and you can get on a bus when it runs out, it runs out, so you've got to tick it that you can yawns, so you know you don't have to have no not worry about you, can you don't have to buy more than one you just buy one, and when it runs out it runs out the next thing I've noticed in, in some countries, good school sculptures for transport, they have parking strive, for example, in Japan. You just drive, took motorway, you park out and get on an express bus, and you're in Tokyo in one of an hour or whatever. It's radical
solutions like that.
do you understand my illness on remain, I think we'd need to be addressing the egg before the chicanery, thanks to that thing, thank you.
I think you are absolutely right, I think there is a fine balance
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:46:26
between affordable transport and unreliable and punctual transport, and that's exactly what we've done, and I think that paper sets this out in terms of the allocation of the the phase 1 phase 2 funded in be say the 77 also million that we've got a pretty even split, albeit slightly weighted in favour of mayor's fares but between that one and improving the network and we are working.
we allowed to do that, we've seen our first tranche of of network enhancements being delivered in Feb next month in February and a further round of that happening in July, as well as the super bus schemes that have been delivered in September and further wants to come, so we are really actively working to rural that network enhancement programme out and it feeds into that point which I think is it is a good one, thank you.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:47:17
thanks for that me, I'd just like to pick up on something you've mentioned there, because it's really important, you know, you've got the Walcott Ryder initiative, page 53, I mean, I'd like to know what motivational psychological tools we're gonna use to support this behaviour change campaign. Would it be useful for you guys if we invited some behavioural psychologists and we can do that here, you know, we've we've invited people to the table before, so you know, if there's anything that we can do to support that scrutiny process, you know, we're not behavioural psychologists, why would we be
so yeah, if there's anything that we can do to add, thank you.
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:47:57
I think you're right understanding the pass injuries key to all. This is absolutely understanding what drives and what motivates and what's going to push them into that modal shift and going back on the point about people working less frequently in the office and and and that and that that that hybrid approach, I think I think that feeds into this desire to get the modal shift element rather than actual numbers. Let's let's drive the modal shift with the comprehensive, reliable and well respected and integrated transport system, and that's that's what we, that's, what we're looking for in our wider plans. We did have a
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:48:33
member last year who or the year before, who it was from the department of psychology at Leeds Uni, and she brought some really interesting ideas about using apps make it relevant. It's got to be, I suppose, rewarding you've got to have that points system that we're all used to get so many points you get on so many buses. You know it's gotta be that that level the carrot and stick we can't be used in the state, taking people's parking away, is not necessarily the answer as it. I think
so anyway, yeah, you'll get me all round, I have you get where we're coming from, OK, his next Councillor Foster, thank you. Thank you delighted to see that there is a superbugs between Halifax and
Cllr Dot Foster - 0:49:13
Huddersfield pending because the 5 0 3 is notorious in its failure to actually arrive just to or depart from Hilton actually get people to all about. I have a colleague who uses it regularly and he moans about it on a regular basis to
I'd love to know what exactly is this is it about this bus that makes it so Super and the other? The other point I wanted to raise was the fact that insurance in cars now, particularly for young people, is rising exponentially and over 70 of 16 year old son. I have absolutely no idea how we're ever going to afford to insure a car for him. Is there any way we can capitalise on that unaffordability of driving to get people on the buses instead, because it makes far more sense, I mean I'm not not in a rush to get him to learn to drive, but you know if it's the, it's the the point is the insurance is so expensive now, particularly for young people, can we capitalise on that?
thank you, Councillor Foster, I'm not sure it's in your remit saw out
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:50:24
no insurance but Corey no, but yeah yeah, so how can we how can we use that as a as a lever?
I mean, it's just, it's just one module in the boxes and it to persuade people to come to to to to open to that modal shift element
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:50:41
and to come to public transport. I think what we can do we can't control the current insurance market if costs, but what we can do is make that offer as attractive as we possibly can by being true, with the funding that we've got and doing exactly what we are doing in a tier. 2. First point about the super boss, the the option area and work that we're now doing to ensure that we we, we focus that funding in the right areas for the right route, but to to transport as many people as we possibly can and get the best bang for the buck as possible. Out of that, funding is absolutely where we need to go
that that's the way it goes back to the behaviour change part doesn't it, that we need to make it as attractive as we possibly can for the public to know when, and that does it spiral and insurance costs which shall help us with that.
thank you, I've got some a question from somebody who is obese as
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:51:34
e-mailed me on the the cost, how much would it cost, but let me just get the questions, whether right OK, so the question was brought to the
the other committee hasn't asked has been done on how much it would actually cost to for concessionary travel, so if the 9 30 before now it's forgotten the bus not before 9 30, so these are disabled people who might want to work elderly people who might be looking after children for people who will work in you know this we've been told at eye-watering costs can you tell us a little bit about how much that would cost and where can we get that funding from?
yeah, it's a really topical point, isn't it about the concessionary
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:52:22
fares and the the times, that concessionary fares are valid, and it kind of feeds into to the overall transport offer again in terms of a detailed answer to your question in terms of, as has that been analysed in terms of a cost profile, I am not sure that it has, but we can certainly look look into that. It is a
yeah from anywhere, it was raised that Shah Warwick. We can absolutely look into it, it's a question that keeps getting raised, I think it's it's it's hot topic, isn't it, that people are not disadvantaged and that we we can look at that one, and it is certainly something that our concessionary fares team have looked at in the past and will take that out of this meeting as something to perhaps bring back to you and give you a more detailed answer on yeah. I'd really appreciate that
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:53:13
it's been coming up since I've been here, so since 2019 I think it came up, I know, as as Councillor Brooks has said, it has been looked at, but I think if other local authorities in banned authorities can do this, then it's really important that we say why how much it's gonna cost, why we can't do it, if we can't do it just be really clear, then there's some transparency there, so the question doesn't keep coming back repeatedly, yeah I'd really appreciate that. Thank you, OK, Councillor Brooks, and then I think we're gonna have to wrap up all sorry cow and Councillor Merrick that gate and then we'll wrap up on this topic and thank Stuart them
so.
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 0:53:49
inter in terms of the drop in pomp punctuality right so it's brought from.
84% in August, down to 79% from September, so that that's essentially one in five stops and not being punchable.
I've I've got concerns around that, if we, if we're wanting to build a flat modal shift, especially you know there's a cost of living crisis, people are terrified about losing the job and getting into Mordor and everything spiralling so them is, is there any. Is there any additional work that's going on around this punctuality is running external factors. I know there's a bit of roadworks and things like that, but there's always a P Robertson Acer
and also I wanted to ask about buses that are setting on fire, why is that happening, thank you.
thank you for.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:54:54
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:55:09
thank you, thank you. What we can say is that we work, we work collaboratively with our operates partners and where we can find alternative routes to bypass and traffic congestion hotspots we do that we've got a team that analyses those hotspots as well so completely say at the point that the them the the punctuality figure as as as dropped but we do work as I said collaboratively with operators and that teams to try and mitigate that and we'll will watch that with interest to see where it takes us going forward and why there's a second way.
if goodness may.
Kenneth.
it is one of the best driver, so we were, it is, is the sorry as it is
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:56:06
at the batteries, or is it?
okay, so do we know anything about Les I, I think I think it would be
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:56:15
remiss of me to speculate as to the reasons on specific incidents, so maybe if I can look into that for you, Councillor and and then come back to come back to that, is there anyone in particular examine I'm aware of one.
there's been a there's been an incident in London, as this is a little specific incident that you're talking about, or is it just collectively or?
sorry.
I think this is just a bit of concern amongst BA bus drivers about the
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 0:56:40
reliability and sometimes safety of the buses at all.
but let me come back to you on that one, thank you.
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:56:49
OK.
I am looking at the time.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:56:56
and we've got Councillor Mowat, and then.
Aisha okay and then then we'll have to wrap up on this topic OK,
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:57:07
Councillor Mowat yeah, can I ask about the proposed allocation of the
Cllr Dave Merrett - 0:57:12
additional phase 3 be separately tangled to ministers taking the absolute lion's share of of that money is that's simply driven by the cost of the existing scheme and not adjusting the affairs for inflation?
which, presumably in this, is probably the last year that you're gonna be able to sustain it at that level, otherwise you just simply won't get enough future allocations for it.
so that raises one set of questions, the other set of questions in terms of cost benefit.
you know how much extra use of buses are we going to get from the increasing level of subsidy versus, putting more of that money into bus network improvements to a repo increases reliability or you know the additional money for some of the socially necessary buses and with that trade-off being evaluated has there been any cost benefit analysis of the different options?
thank you.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:58:20
thank you. We are a good question, so instead, in terms of the in
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 0:58:23
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:58:26
terms of the reimbursement of the Mayor's affairs, so we've got a reimbursement model that done, or a for, or an analysis of the first year of of the fares and putting that next to the shadow affairs, that's the the model. That requires the 11 million out of the phase 3 to keep peers and keep in step with the national D F T model. As I explained earlier, so it is a key priority, as it were, that we do that. We maintain that 2 pound maximum fare for single journeys in West Yorkshire in terms of the cost benefits analysis points on the network blathers are the, as I said earlier, the the the basic funding is the slightly Margot into fare subsidy, but we do have a significant chunk of that going into our network enhancements super bus, and the basic plus element saw him and we were conscious that will continue to roll those network enhancements out, and will continue to evaluate the benefits of that across the piece with the with the fare. So it is still in quite early days, been launched as mayor's fares in September 22. I think it was that analysis is an ongoing piece of work, but there is rue not to forget. That is a sizeable amount of that funding. That's gone into network enhancements, and we've got a rolling programme through 2025 and beyond.
to to get those extra services into the system, thank you.
thank you for your questions.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 0:59:56
Councillor really really quick, and it could be that it's somewhere else, I'm just not seen at what is going to happen at the end of 2024 with the mayor spare.
Mr Mick Bunting, Interim Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:00:10
show that something that we all admire, my colleagues, who obviously the fair will be working on in terms of, or are of an exit strategy that will work for the passenger that will be sustainable going forward. I can't give you the detail on that at the moment because we don't have it, but it is a key question that are or at the that the our teams are or have got. We're being really mindful of the fact that at the end of this period we've got a challenge to maintain a sustainable, fair going forward for passengers is a key piece of work, alongside the cost benefits analysis that I've talked about, that we ensure that we've got a sustainable position and or a sustainable position for passengers and something that will keep that modal shift trend going in the direction that we want it. So so I can't give you the, I can't give you the detail on that yet, Councillor, but I can give you the assurance that it is a key piece of work and we're mindful of it
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:01:06
that's great, thank you OK, so let's move on to Item.
to meet our mass transit item.

8 Mass Transit

I'd like to thank Tim Lawrence for joining us today so.
can I first check if there's anything that you'd like to add to the report Tim?
Simon Warburton - 1:01:34
thank you, so what what we've, what we've set out here for members is?
a reminder of the mass transit vision that we've set out and a clearer sense in terms of it in terms of of the way forward on the mass transit programme, so there are a number of slides at Rye that are attached.
to the report, they set out very clearly that the mass transit programme that we're bringing forward is it is, it is a key component of our overall integrated and transport proposition and clearly, as referred to in in the last item.
that overall proposition well.
start to come together over the coming weeks, as we reached the end of the process to consider our options around bus reform, we've had significant national support for the mass transit.
programme, so back to the conversation that we have before around around Network North that has continued to, I dare identify West Yorkshire mass transit as a as a national priority going forward and we do benefit from a significant development funding.
4 are our initial programme, where we're focusing our efforts at the moment is around the first phase of they that the the mass transit programme, which is in that triangle of of territory between Bradford and Leeds, sit centre.
at the top of of the triangle to the south of Leeds, then.
and through to to Dewsbury, and then looking at what the right form of rapid transit connection is between Dewsbury and Bradford as as well, we are.
confident that we've got a case to to bring forward on those two principle.
a mass transit corridors from Leeds to the south.
and onwards to Dewsbury work in 2 timetable at the far end that coincides with a housing growth.
proposals that that proposed or incur place or am between Leeds City Centre and and per an Bradford City Centre, we are currently working up a the first stage of the detailed business case and we're expecting to bring that business case forward.
to the Combined Authority in March with with a view to us then moving into a first stage of consultation in the summer of this year on on those two corridors, I'll leave it that, yeah, OK, Simon.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:04:53
yeah, I'm aware that that Luke's not here today is away on the so yeah, thank you for Stefan in it, yeah, thank you for joining this team as well.
as anyone got a question, so I've got Councillor Watson and then Councillor Merrett, then Councillor Wilson, Harry did, you have your hand yeah, Councillor McCarthy, and then Councillor Holmes?
Councillor Watson, or would you like to thank you, Simon them?
can I just want to be convinced, Sophie that
Cllr Anna Watson - 1:05:33
I wanted to know why an excellent connected electric bus network that has priority on the roads would not give us what we needed for a brilliant for modal shift and and a brilliant public transport experience and offer, and would that not be the fastest way to deliver this and decarbonise why does it why does it have to be packaged in and called mass transport when they could there be is that just because there's money there and it's mass transport or is it that a brilliant connected,
bus network.
can deliver this instead and did that make sense, it might be makes
Simon Warburton - 1:06:19
perfect sense and the answer is we need both, so we absolutely need a step change, both in terms of the quality of vehicles on the bus network and also the level of the service that we can offer and of course that those are the aspects that we've been looking at through consideration of bus reform.
there are, there are certain points in in West Yorkshire, where our analysis suggests that the scale of the requirement is is is of a different level and needs us to think about.
a contemporary rail-based offer, so so if you think about some of the travel corridors that that we've got in West Yorkshire Calder Valley, it is is very good.
example there
we've got a rail service because there's a concentration of movement, there are distances over which that that movement needs to take place, that that means that that rail is is the right solution, the LP corridor again is is, is is a very good demonstration of that what we've also seen from comparable city regions.
is that there is a level of growth and regeneration of urban areas that that can be achieved through a permanent investment in.
I am in a light rail solution and it's the combination of those two factors that helps us to identify where there are corridors, where there is a genuine step-change opportunity, so if we look at.
in Leeds South for, for example, if you look at the scale of really positive housing and community growth that we've seen on the south bank, if you look at the level of regeneration per potential, ended around the football ground, if we look at the volume of travel,
in and around White Rose, and then we think about that or at a corridor level, then we can say that the right sort of conditions come together that actually fit quite closely to something like a Salford Keys or a Trafford Park extension.
in Greater Manchester and take us beyond.
what we can achieve through through through bus.
alone, equally, if we think about some of the destination economy that that we've got here in Leeds city centre and we have a 20,000 seater or arena which can be through the right mass transit solution, fantastically connected into the rail station and transform the way that people think sustainably about travelling.
so the advanced economy here in the city centre, if we look over in Bradford.
they, the regeneration perspectives around the Southern Gateway is is is of a scale that.
that that fits with that, that level of off of connectivity, we've long had a problem of two rail stations in Bradford city centre which don't connect to each other again, apologies for harking back from where you will know I came from previously, but actually this huge parallels there between.
the links between Victoria station and Piccadilly station and also the sorts of regeneration that we saw in East Manchester in response to the tram being built out through East Manchester, so absolutely we need a bus system, but there are, there are some corridors where there is such a big,
movement and regeneration case to be made that we think there is the case for that high level of investment.
thank you.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:10:41
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 1:10:44
yeah just quietly, there's also when I think it's a 35 7 airborne development uplift flicks on to on various theories.
Cllr Kayleigh Brooks (Leeds City Council) - 1:10:53
around the country which which, by its design, is going to mean that we need to look at increasing density in urban environments as well, which which then?
it obviously supports a mass transit a lot, a lot better than Lambesis thank thanks for Councillor Brooks.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:11:18
I suppose we bear in mind most transport projects are very rarely done on time and in budget, so what have we got in place that will mean we are, we gonna say up front, would no way it's gonna be on time and in budget or are we gonna say yes, it absolutely will be so.
Simon Warburton - 1:11:40
the last mass transit programme that I was involved with in Greater Manchester was delivered on time and to budget.
and that was achieved by a really strong delivery model, so what we are focused on it in that regard is making sure that we've learned the best from other programmes that that have taken place, that we we, we are very clear and we are not heroically ambitious.
in terms of the timescales that we take on board, the were also very clear upfront that there are significant capital costs associated with light rail or or, and we don't duck from from that.
and so.
yeah, we're confident that we understand the conditions that we need to put in place to keep ourselves on time and on budget, thank you for
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:12:36
that reassurance okay, next we have Councillor Merritt.
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 1:12:42
yeah, it's some continuing from the previous question, obviously fully understand the point you're making about the potential corridors for
Cllr Dave Merrett - 1:12:52
mass transit, but I'm just trying to understand in terms of the two links to Dewsbury.
particularly the western one up to Bradford.
it is the part is genuinely the volume that would suggest that those are actually suitable for mass transit, as opposed to conventional transport solutions certainly understand the point about south south Leeds, but it's the is going beyond that.
and you know we, we did have the awful example of what happened with the tram in in Sheffield, where trying to meet social objectives by the routing didn't actually deliver the volume that made it actually you work commercially over a long period of time.
Simon Warburton - 1:13:50
so so in the context of that period are now we we would work closely with wow with the two councils, there's there's a mature relationship that that recognises that, certainly or at any.
planned level of of development between Dewsbury and Bradford there isn't the density of demand to make the case for a light rail level of of connectivity, nonetheless, there is the need, and this comes back to Councillor Watson's point before, for A
a vastly improved.
a bus connection, part of our mass transit programme as we go forward, will be to make sure that we we, we are not looking to roll out trams everywhere simply for the sake of of of of building a tram we've seen from elsewhere whether that's again or in Great Manchester with the label sway or in Belfast with the glider bus system the Cambridgeshire Bow busway,
that the that there are some, there are some fantastic busway schemes that that can really contribute to an urban transport offer as well, so we're absolutely clear that the advice that we bring forward to you as Members, and this is the Combined Authority.
will always be based on on what we think is the right solution on a place-based approach.
thank you, Simon.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:15:27
next question, Councillor Wilson.
thank you.
Cllr Tony Hames - 1:15:34
one general question which has raised before all comment rate, I
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 1:15:40
suppose it's just that you know, does that kind of scepticism about you know, will this really happen, et cetera, et cetera, and just to kind of I'm sure you've got this in your mind in a way but,
for many of us politicians, I think it's just a case of anything you can do to.
I make this case as strong as possible and speed it up and anything like that, so we can get space and background as soon as possible, I know that's what you're doing, so I guess I'm to Sandwell party as well on that front briefly just on North Leeds, which is my area.
utterly does it depend on us getting levelling up funding for the Airport Parkway station to make that directly connected to Leeds just I was just looking at the route-map, so I just say that that's a question about Otley and then no fees in general.
as per page about that, this area says it's very congested.
you've got Holt Park in terms of possible economic regeneration.
Fair bit of housebuilding up in that Addle and that sort of area as well, and, crucially, I think that the university campuses particularly Leeds Beckett.
but actually that area is not currently, Sir, it the current vision doesn't really serve that area, so there's the mass transit line proposed to go sort of via Kirkstall to the city centre and the Nesbø rail line from Horsforth, but that goes to Headingley which isn't actually in Headingley and then onto Burley Park so you kind of,
Meanwood real Headingley Addle that areas just not currently is our vision for that area.
a possible vision I can see, I can see that you know what can be done about that area, actually, will it just always be a case of buses and cars and bikes in the area, or what's the vision for for that?
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:17:39
so there's a couple of a couple of different elements in that for
Simon Warburton - 1:17:43
first of all, in the context of of the airport station.
so so we have got funding for the airport station through the West Yorkshire Plus Transport Fund, I am hoping that we will have a
the final business case developed in the next 2 3 months,
for the the airport station, some really positive conversations taking place with Network Rail.
and Northern are around how that might be accommodated into what is a busy rail corridor already, because it it, it's a fundamental asset that is currently missing for the city region, is that that particular station?
heading late, so so so the challenge remains, how do we, how do we best serve heading Lee and A and A Meanwood which are quite densely developed, residential areas with the right public transport solution, I think the right public transport solution I would advise for some time to come is bus.
but it needs to be a far better marketed bus system than we've got through there at the moment we need to continue to look at how we can protect bus journey times through those.
corridors, and we definitely need to make sure that we've got the right corridors to protect active travel them from heading the I am and Meanwood as as as well.
and I would suggest it is one of those corridors in particular.
that would want us to be looking at early on once we have decided our way forward in terms of reform, to to the bus system, given to just come back and that take place, thank you.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:19:41
yes, I agree with the proposed sale of 8 light rail.
Cllr Tony Hames - 1:19:49
that I understand the A6 60 in particular is that it is a difficult stretch of road, but
and we have increasingly some of the best cycling provision in in in the country.
and per annum, a decent bus service,
Meanwood Road is a bit different.
there's probably more space around me would Road and it doesn't have cycle lanes et cetera, any chance of, I think the trams probably ran up their back in the day, I think they ran up to launch a roundabout back in the day any.
Cllr Izaak Wilson - 1:20:26
any chance of getting something on Meanwood Road, do you think that being factored in, or are we just, is just not going to be possible,
Simon Warburton - 1:20:33
so so I think this I think there's the the there's two issues it so so firstly that the first thing that we need to be able to do is is to bring forward the basis of a of a mass transit system to to West Yorkshire if it it isn't here at the moment and that first step forward.
has to be based on the strongest corridors. The that we can see because there are a set of one-off costs, building a depot, securing a power source, securing the first the first generation of fleet and so forth, which mean that the first part of a mass transit system is the most expensive part of a mass transit system and therefore you need to be particularly confident in terms of that. I'm very focused right now
on him, turning that into into a reality.
if we can get that into place so that we can start to have genuinely well-organised conversations in terms of from the vision that we've set out there were, where do we best take ourselves next, but what I don't want anybody to fail is that that means that there are only two corridors that we are interested in in West Yorkshire now they are two corridors that we are interested in or in promoting.
a, a mass transit or a a tram system through in the first order.
we are interested in every travel pool corridor in West Yorkshire and we want to be able to pursue wants the mayor has given her us her indication in terms of which direction she wants us to go a transformation of the bus network, that means that we can do that across the piece and and that's got to be critical in terms of the the the next decade that is ahead of us.
thanks for that time, and it is fairly important this budget is still
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:22:29
at the beginning out, we were still at the phase 1, we haven't even put off.
on Spader the soil, so that sort of leads to a question. I wanted to ask about future-proof and obviously the technological advancements that we're seeing right now. You know that have been developed are being evolved. Is there any way that we can? We can be more agile so that when we do put this into play that we can use the absolute latest technology that is available. So I suppose what I'm saying is it might not be electricity by the time we get there one in 10 years time it might be hydrogen. That's what I'm asking me
Simon Warburton - 1:23:11
so we will definitely we would definitely looking at all technology options or as as part of of the first phase of work to to to to look at fleet the advice that I'll probably bring forward to you is that quite likely to be about the third adopter of something rather than the first adopter off of something?
but.
yeah, we, I mean we've set out very clearly in the documentation that we put round, that we want to bring forward a mass transit system which is as supportive to the communities that it serves as possible, a supportive and sensitive to the places the that it serves so where we're able to minimise the amount of structures that are needed, for example,
we definitely want to be able to do that, we definitely want to be able to make sure that we're really testing the extent to which certainly.
batteries can play a role in minimising the level of overhead line, for example, that that's needed but at the same time I want to make sure that we're bringing proposals to you that I know are deliverable.
and it will be still be striking. The right balance between that
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:24:32
thanks for that, okay, Councillor McCarthy, thank you Chair sorry, two
Cllr Harry McCarthy - 1:24:36
brief comments that the first one was.
looking at how the mass transit vision it does off, if you look at my area to be a bit parochial for a second is or like stops in Kirkley south of Huddersfield, and I appreciate that, like its geography is difficult to introduce a scheme like this there but just to make sure that we as of integrating these projects with existing public transport links to make sure it brings some kind of benefit.
people in outlying areas, and the second one was going back to echo comments. People have made also go back to the previous item. Where it said of people that don't use buses, 75% would never give a thought about it. Just kind of making sure we're focusing on people like that, because there's always a worry with projects like this that they just compete with existing public transport and they solve the people that use them will be the people that would have used the bus or train instead of this mass transit scheme. So if we're gonna sort of focus upon delivering that behaviour change and getting those people using it, so designing the best people in mind
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:25:48
yeah, it's it's a massively important point, so, sir, so we know we,
Simon Warburton - 1:25:52
we know that rail and light rail are the most successful mods at transferring people out of cars, but we've also been very clear in terms of focusing on corridors that aren't about cannibalising bus routes or if we've got a successful bus route, what we want to be able to do is to support that bus route and see how we can get it to to perform better.
because you're absolutely right, it's in terms of CA in terms of Coakley's, and in one sense it it's it's really regrettable that the mass transit vision document just talks about mass transit and it's been around for a while, it's not necessarily quite how I wouldn't necessarily suggested that we presents it because if you actually think about that corridor through to Dewsbury then we are about to replace the bus station in Dewsbury that's in our capital programme that will that will be happening this year.
that will take us into then, where we are in terms of a reform bus market and a on. How do we want to look at the bus network that feeds introduced, but at the same time Dewsbury is also then going to start to benefit from some of the early improvements in terms of trans Pennine upgrade, which then takes you through to Huddersfield, where of course we're now looking at what can we do to improve the Podesta Lindsay? You can start to see that there are a number of parts that come together, all of which are about a better connected Kirkley, and I can tell the same story in in other places and and that's the danger, if we just look at a map of a mass transit system or indeed anything else, in splendid isolation we've got to
talk about the integrated transport proposition, because I think it is genuinely set to come forward in all parts of the calibration.
thank you, and I've got we've got about six more minutes left, Councillor Holmes.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:27:53
a real quickly.
Cllr Charlie Keith - 1:27:57
stop stop studying too much juice oil and or open install a light rail tram jump system, make sure make sure it goes to Leeds airport, where it costs 70 pounds per week to park garden and go to bust all the hospitals, especially Pinderfields where it costs an arm and a leg to park.
of
get it installed as quickly as you can.
do the work on the corridor, and if there's anything in your role, you snuck it down and discredit you like there's no such thing as an electric boss, there's battery operated buses, the only thing where you go to electric vehicle and you're going to stay green is like
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:28:44
trade red light rail train jump thanks for all that was mankind again where if you didn't know what to do then
we have had some top tips, OK, Councillor Foster, and just very quickly I mean I'm just looking back into history, a little and the
Cllr Dot Foster - 1:28:56
demise of the tram systems that we had speeches cuts to all the local railways that we used to have. How can we make sure that what we are proposing doesn't suffer the same fate,
thank you.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:29:16
yeah heart, it's a really good question, and one impact partly relates
Simon Warburton - 1:29:19
back to the point about study also so Tim who's.
sit next to me, it seems obvious to satisfy a sceptical Treasury that
the or all all of our numbers come together and what's the Shea frustration, Councillor Haynes, that's that's why we have two studies as as as as much as or as we do
there's a there's a real relevance between the corridors that we're bringing forward and the development that's happening around West Yorkshire, so so they fit from a from an economic perspective and you can see that the demand in the future is is only going to grow on the back of that one, and that gives me confidence for as long as anybody can project forwards.
that we're we're building in the right place to stay there.
thank you and just to come back to reports.
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:30:22
he stated in the report item 4 that they're gonna be some main challenges to overcome in the years ahead, and you intend to overcome some of these challenges through the risk assessment, do you wanna talk about some of those challenges now thanks yeah, so certainly so,
there are are that there are a series of of.
Simon Warburton - 1:30:49
process challenges the that we that we need to get right, so we set out in the slides a timeline that lies ahead of us.
that timeline will require us to be able to secure funding and powers from central government and national processes in a timely fashion, and so we're working very closely would just put it in place, actually, a new co-sponsor arrangement with with the F T and Treasury.
so that they've got the earliest understanding of where we go in our case and what our case needs from national processes to address that.
we recognise that
in order for us to meet the standards that we've rightly set for ourselves in terms of being sensitive to the communities and places that we will deliver through, and we need to be able to undertake really thorough consultation exercises at the stages that the that we do,
and we need to be ready to respond to what will inevitably be some challenging issues that will be raised at times by.
by adjacent communities, and again we're looking ahead to make sure that we've got the right conditions are in place in that regard, we need to be on top of our costs all the way through.
and so we're drawing on expertise from all of the recent light rail programmes around the country to make sure that we are best on top of that and we need to be on top of our delivery capability, so we're starting to build a a corporate majority model that means that we are ready not just with,
the project management skills that we will need, but all of the back office capabilities.
all of the legal capabilities and so forth that will need, at each of the stages had surveys of the case, so the such key aspects that we're looking at across our risk management approach.
thank you, and if you think there's anything that we need to be
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:33:10
looking at in spare tonight, please do come to come to us.

9 Work Programme

thank you everybody, it's been really good, really interest in me centre at work programme, we need to decide on our work programme for for our next meeting if we have a look at what we've put down here, so we're gonna look at the Local Transport Plan which includes behaviour change, great good timing and decarbonisation, freight and waterways as a resource and,
any current trends of transport.
for likes from the pandemic and beyond, we've also talked about.
possibly bring him back franchisor, because I think the meeting is the day before our Scrutiny meeting, so I hate to say it was on and he called Insta redone then then yeah, we'll have to do it that the next the next day basically,
has anyone got anything else they'd like to add to the to the work programme that we haven't talked about this year?
I'm not promising that we'll be able to move forward with, but we can at least look at if there's anything, do you think you'd like to add, then please do drop me a line or and Keller does as well.
can I just ask the question?
please do
this was that sort of awkward timing assure the from charging. Is it?
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 1:34:36
Would it be sensible to see if we could actually move our meeting a
Cllr Dave Merrett - 1:34:43
little bit earlier so that we can actually pre-scrutinise rather than
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:34:51
have to do a weekly yeah, we have, we have looked at bus franchising before it is not the first time it's come into us so yeah, but if you think it is it just ask yeah yeah, now it's it, it's very difficult to move that the Murphy's meeting dates because there are the publicly, in the diary, for well over 12 months ahead, so and officers are working to those deadlines really so in terms of scrutiny, though the process would be it would go to the Combined Authority and then it would come back to us to Scrutiny the next day but I take your take you, it's a very valid point, Councillor Mowat you know there is something to be had in pre-scrutiny of these decisions absolutely.
and when those papers come through, I would really urge members to have a look at them re in advance, you know they will be out there, they're they're gonna be on the website, if we can make sure members have got the papers for the
franchising item that would be great, yeah so yeah, it's a really good point, thank you.
second Christian.
Cllr Joanne Dodds - 1:35:58
00 0 LTP obviously absolutely crucial, saying it's coming down the
Cllr Dave Merrett - 1:36:04
track, can I just check that again in terms of our meeting time.
you know how well developed will be the work, are we able to actually put it at the right point from the actual development of that planning
Cllr Amanda Parson-Hulse (Chair) - 1:36:21
point of view? Yeah, as far as I understand it, the LTP is gonna be exited at the end of the year, so we are, we are well in advance, we were having our meeting in March. Aren't we so we can pre-scrutinise that as a wry yeah really good point? Thank you. Thank you for that OK, so I'd like to thank all of our officers and members for attending today and a special thank you for authenticating and Callard for all the hard work that goes on behind the scenes
and thank you for bringing your inquiring minds, members, this is really useful, it's really useful to have a fresh eyes on on the subjects.

10 Date of the next meeting - 15 March 2024

so our next meetings on the 15th of March at 10.00, look for, and if you can be on time, that would be fantastic, so we haven't got to do the meeting twice, so that'd be great OK.
let's hope the transport supports that process anyway have a safe journey home members, thank you.