Scrutiny Committee - Friday 13 March 2026, 10:30am - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Scrutiny Committee
Friday, 13th March 2026 at 10:30am 

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  1. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  2. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  3. Tim Lawrence
  4. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  5. Mr Mike Birch
  6. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  7. Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
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  1. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  2. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  3. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  4. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  5. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  7. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  8. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  9. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  10. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  11. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  12. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  13. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  14. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  16. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  17. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  18. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  19. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  20. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  21. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  22. Mr Mike Birch
  23. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  24. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  25. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  26. Mr Mike Birch
  27. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  28. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  29. Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council)
  30. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  31. Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council)
  32. Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council)
  33. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  34. Mr Mike Birch
  35. Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council)
  36. Tim Lawrence
  37. Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council)
  38. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  39. Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council)
  40. Tim Lawrence
  41. Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council)
  42. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  43. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  44. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  45. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  46. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  47. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  48. Mr Mike Birch
  49. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  50. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  51. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  52. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  53. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  54. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  55. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  56. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  57. Cllr Harry McCarthy (Kirklees Council)
  58. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  59. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  60. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  61. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  62. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  63. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  64. Cllr Harry McCarthy (Kirklees Council)
  65. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  66. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  67. Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council)
  68. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  69. Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council)
  70. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  71. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  72. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  73. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  74. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  75. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  76. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  77. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  78. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  79. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  80. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  81. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  82. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  83. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  84. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  85. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  86. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  87. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  88. Cllr Paul Godwin (Bradford Council)
  89. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  90. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  91. Tim Lawrence
  92. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  93. Tim Lawrence
  94. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  95. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  96. Cllr Paul Godwin (Bradford Council)
  97. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  98. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  99. Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council)
  100. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  101. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  102. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  103. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  104. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  105. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  106. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  107. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  108. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  109. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  110. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  111. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  112. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  113. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  114. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  115. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  116. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  117. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  118. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  119. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  120. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  121. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  122. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  123. Cllr Hannah Bithell
  124. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  125. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  126. Cllr Hannah Bithell
  127. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  128. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  129. Cllr Andy Rontree (Leeds City Council)
  130. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  131. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  132. Cllr Andy Rontree (Leeds City Council)
  133. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  134. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  135. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  136. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  137. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  138. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  139. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  140. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  141. Cllr Hannah Bithell
  142. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  143. Cllr Hannah Bithell
  144. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  145. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  146. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  147. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  148. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  149. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  150. Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council)
  151. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
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  1. Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire
  2. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  3. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  4. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  5. Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council)
  6. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  7. Cllr Andy Rontree (Leeds City Council)
  8. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  9. Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council)
  10. Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair)
  11. Mr Jonathan Timbers
  12. Webcast Finished

Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:00:00
of the WACIS meeting for this year.
So, I think everybody...
Tim, do you want to introduce yourself?
Because I think a lot of people may be not...
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:00:14
Sure. Thank you, Chair.
Good morning, good new committee.
My name is Tim Lawrence, and I, as it says on the title there,
I'm the Head of Transport, Planning and Appraisal for the Mass Transit Programme.
Tim Lawrence - 0:00:25
So, not a very snappy title.
but in summary what it means is that I am responsible for the business case
making the case to government for the investment in mass transit so I liaise
with the Department for Transport Officials on a regular basis. I undertake
traffic modelling and I write up the documentation that comprises essentially
a bid to the government. Thank you. Mike, do you want to introduce yourself?
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:00:54
Yeah, thank you chair. So morning all so Mike Burch. I'm the director of mass transit and
Mr Mike Birch - 0:01:05
Ultimately responsible for the delivery of the programme for West Yorkshire combined authority and this is Mike's first scrutiny meeting
But it's also his last scrutiny meeting as well
Yes, so be gentle
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:01:11
So right any apologies for that

1 Apologies for Absence

2 Declaration of Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

Ms. Katie Wright, Scrutiny Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:01:34
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:01:36
The minutes of the meeting on the 20th of February.

3 Possible Exclusion of the Press and Public

Oh
There's no possible there's no exclusion is on the president

4 Minutes of the meeting held on 20 February 2026

Item four minutes of the meeting held on the 20th of February
Anybody get any questions or observations that would like to make about those minutes?
If not, can someone propose that we accept them, please
Thank you, and can you just show your show of hands that you're happy with them
I know it seems unusual. We're tightening up on procedures, aren't we?
Right, so we're now into the item five the mayoral activity

5 Mayoral Activity and Mass Transit

Presumably Ben is the mayor on her way
Chair with apologies the mayor is on her way. So we just give it a moment
right, so
We'll now, what you've got is you've got some papers which came partly from the mayor's
office and partly from other parts of the combined authority to use as prep for today's
meeting.
We won't be going through the papers in any, we have any questions only using these papers
as your basis for moving things forward.
Now the first question we are going to have on devolution, we won't have just now because
the mayor will need to answer that question.
Okay we will start with question one then. Welcome, welcome.
Right, Councillor Haig, question one.
Thank you.
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:03:43
So my questions are about devolution and the progress that the Authority is making.
So my first question is, we're still in the early days of devolution.
Are there any internal or external barriers to getting the right skills, capability and
resources to support it?
Thank you, Councillor Haig.
is that to support devolution internally?
Within our organisation, is that what you're saying?
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:04:09
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:04:11
It's for devolution too and within the authority.
Thank you, there is definitely a piece of work
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:04:16
that is ongoing looking at areas of need around expansion,
but one of the challenges is that we want to go faster
with devolution, so for example, we are taking in
the responsibilities for fire in 27, 28.
And talking to government about what that would look
like in our organisation, there's potentially a
thousand firefighters that would come into WICA.
We don't necessarily want that.
We would like what's called a corporation sole,
where they are, they have their own organisation.
It's working perfectly well.
Chooping over firefighters and the whole of the fire
service into our organisation,
that is something that we're working with government to try and get to the bottom of.
So there are things that are external around resources, but Ben wants to come in about
the plan for change that, as you know, all of the funding streams have a plan for resourcing.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:05:21
Thank you, Mayor. So I think the answer is that there are always challenges. We presented
a paper to the combined authority last October that sets out in the context of
what we expect from devolution in the context of the devolution bill and that
will become law all being well in the spring the resource requirements and the
capacity requirements we felt we needed for the organisation that that saw in
our predictions the organisation continuing to grow we're about a
thousand people at the moment we see over the next five years that we might
need to grow by something like 30 % to 40%,
but which didn't include firefighters.
So it's not as if the organisation is
going to become the size of a traditional unitary authority.
We will remain an organisation that
is of smaller scale that's doing less, apart from in transport,
less direct frontline activity, but more strategy,
commissioning, oversight, evaluation, monitoring, which means that our skills
make up is going to be different and aligned therefore to that plan we have a
people strategy which includes within it a workforce strategy which is looking to
recruit to those specific areas so there's a number of campaigns that will
start as the work demands.
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:06:48
Yeah, so you talked about strategic and organisational plans that are in place, but I'm thinking
more do we have the right mix of powers, are we actually able to take things forward ourselves,
are we relying too much on government plans or ideas
about what they want the authority to do?
Is there anything really that is holding you back?
And do you have those skills, capability, and resources?
Or is that coming?
You know
Because there's a sense of frustration about where we are. I think thank you Ben. You wanted to come in first
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:07:39
Thank you, man. Um, so
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:07:42
So the big step forward and this was subjects of a combined authority paper yesterday
Is the adoption of the integrated settlement because that provides a degree of flexibility?
Over funding and longer -term funding than we've ever had as an organisation before so I don't think
there is an answer to your question that says,
you know, with one step we are free.
I think what we have are some additional
flexibilities that will be very helpful in terms of
being able to programme manage to make sure that we
are focusing resources on the areas that need them
rather than being overly constrained by government
funding streams, which I think is really helpful.
You talked about external factors from government,
though.
I think one of the challenges,
and this was discussed by my counterparts with
White House officials yesterday in London is that there isn't, still isn't a sustainable
funding model for combined authorities.
And so, resourcing the organisation and ensuring we do so within the right financial framework
is still a challenge and we'll continue to work with governments to try and get combined
authorities nationally on a more sustainable footing.
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:08:55
I could just add as well that you see in Europe where mayors have much more fiscal devolution
so they can make decisions for their community and then get on with it.
I think that is one area where we are really pressing and working with government.
And we had a good outcome when we presented our case about the visitor levy,
where if you go to Europe you pay a little bit extra for an investment in that place or in that city.
We didn't have that here in the UK. So being able to
You know put you know
Whatever the pay either a percentage or a couple of pounds or whatever on on a bed for a night
Means that we will be able to then invest in our communities now
That's gonna give us a quite a good funding stream for our public realm for to make our places more attractive for culture, etc
But there is very much an appetite for that to go further to have our own
and ability to raise funds, whether that's for big infrastructure projects.
So we are more autonomous and more self -sustaining.
So it is a process.
We are building the bridge on which we are walking.
But I do think and certainly the outcomes from the meeting yesterday
with the government really understand the opportunity for mayors to deliver
for their communities and to give us the tools to do that.
But the next question again is from counsellor Hage
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:10:22
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:10:26
So Mike this question is on combined authority risk delivery and engagement
do you believe that the authority is to risk averse or perceived to be and
Can we learn from other combined authorities are being less constraining we can increase the pace
Are we matching the pace at which business would like us to move forward?
And is the authorities approach to engagement effective in bringing forward development?
And does it provide value to both businesses and the authority?
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:10:55
That's quite the exam question and we could spend our whole session investigating each
one of those particular questions.
But I think the fundamental question is about risk, isn't it?
And do we move at the same pace as business?
Absolutely not.
And why not?
Because this is public money.
It's different.
And it is a privilege to be able to get monies that
could be spent on hospitals and on schools to be given
to us to invest in the things that we want to
invest in, that we want to build.
So we have to prove value for money.
We have to be careful with the public's money.
We have to make the case.
So do we move as fast as business?
No.
But do we want to work in partnership with business?
Yes.
I would suggest that as an organisation, we have the fine balance of not being risk averse.
And you will see when we get to mass transit that we were bold and innovative and wanted
to move fast.
But however, we are also sensible.
So we are not foolhardy.
and we understand the relationships that we need to build with government and that there are due processes.
We are also
in a good position that we have a team of
in -house
legal advisors and assurance processes and so on that help us. Now, when I first became the mayor the assurance process
felt like it was
a
bit of a challenge for projects, particularly smaller projects, to get
underway. They were seen in the same lens as big projects. We have looked again at
the assurance process to how we can speed up or take a more sympathetic view
to projects, particularly creative projects that need a quick sign -off that
aren't about building bridges or huge areas of regeneration. How we get that
balance, that not everything is the same. So is it a work in progress? Absolutely.
Are we foolhardy? No we're not, but we really do want to be ambitious and move
at speed. I am on a mission to deliver all of my manifesto pledges and to do
that we do have to be agile, but also we are not going to be foolhardy. Ben?
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:13:22
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:13:26
Minister Haig, a follow -up? Thank you, thank you, Chair, thank you Mayor. Just three quick
points just to follow up and I think the mayor has outlined it and really clearly
we often find ourselves working with the most difficult projects the most
challenging housing projects most challenging regeneration projects that
puts us by definition at the very risky end of the spectrum and that's why as
the mayor says we do need to be assured that it's the right use of public
of public money but I think there are two areas where as Tracy says we are
Looking we're all continuously looking to improve one of those is about spending more time planning
So that we don't get into a situation where we needed to change
Projects once they've started procurement so once they're mid -track so putting making sure that we approach projects in the right way
And the second is then being proportionate as the mayor says there's a difference in terms of the level of assurance
And assessment you need to do for a project that costs a few hundred thousand pounds versus one that cost many millions
and we are constantly looking at how we can improve that proportionality.
Jessica Hage, your follow up?
Yeah, that's helpful.
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:14:34
I think, I thought perhaps you might have addressed how the changes
that are coming in the authority structure might address some of those issues
in terms of decision making being in the right place and how the investment board will work.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:14:52
And certainly this is the work that Nicky's been helping us
with on the governance structures.
We've had 11 committees that duplicate work,
potentially aren't as agile or as effective.
And we're now looking to a three committee structure, investment,
weaver, and the third one is?
Combined authority.
Combined authority, yes.
The CA.
It was a big day yesterday.
You'll have to excuse me.
And I will chair those.
and we will really have an opportunity then to use the
agility of the integrated settlement to be more
efficient in our decision -making.
And I think it's been a huge piece of work,
and I really want to thank Nikki and her team for what
they've achieved, and also our combined authority
partners, because in local government,
you will all know you're on this committee,
that being able to be on a committee means you also get,
you know, rewarded for your time and effort.
And so, you know, leaders often like to use committees to,
you know, for balance and so on to embolden
their decision making.
So it's a difficult decision for leaders,
but we've made the case and I know that this is going to put
us in a more delivery focused position where we can move faster.
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:16:21
sitting underneath that though, and this is where we're talking about relationships with
businesses and other organisations, there is some kind of structure which will engage
with that. So although keeping political decision -making separate from it, could you just give a bit
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:16:41
of an idea how that's going to work? But of course those three committees aren't just
guidance from people who are out there doing the job.
So my mayor's business council, the business board,
those are going to be retained.
The business council, we're taking a view,
but it seems to be working so far.
But what is really important is how we deliver
our growth plan.
My job is to deliver growth, and how do we do it?
And I think the business board's new formation,
where they are taking a cluster approach and having
a cluster action plan template where everything is focused on those outcomes, but driven by
people in the sector.
So people in the business of, for example, the green economy or the creative industries
or advanced manufacturing, with their experience and their knowledge of business in those clusters,
being able to drive forward that cluster action plan with their, you know, the deliverables
than the expected outcomes to help us move faster,
I think are going to be really important.
And also, there is an opportunity,
as you know, with the devolution bill
to appoint commissioners that will be,
as with Alison Lowes, my deputy mayor for policing and crime,
do we need a commissioner in other areas?
There is that opportunity that I think, as you know, in London,
Sadiq Khan has a number of deputy mayors
that take responsibilities, whether that's
active travel or
Other housing and regeneration so we are looking at how we share the load
and with the lens of
Deliverability and making sure we get those those outcomes that we want to see
Hey timbers
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:18:36
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 0:18:40
Hopefully this will be a simple question to answer I noticed in the reports and I've heard you use the phrase
before spades in the ground in 2028 for mass transit.
Like you, I share an enthusiasm for getting on with it as soon as possible.
But given the increasing length of the delivery horizon, what does that actually mean in practise,
given and how will it interact with the financial and technical assurance processes which are
ongoing?
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:19:12
You'll have seen from yesterday from the combined authority meeting that we agreed a
piece of work for Leeds City Council that is
improvements up to St. James's Hospital
But that also was minded because the confluence of all route options
Go would go up that particular direction
We were minded that must must transit is also coming so we were taking that into consideration
Spades in the Ground is enabling works where things will need to be done irrespective of
the delivery of a tram, but that would work preparatory works for that tram.
But I'll come to Mike because we have a work stream that is focused on Spades in the Ground
and also been able to support partners like Leeds United.
you'll have seen this week Peter being interviewed talking about how their
regeneration project depends on the tram and how we can work together to have an
approach where we can help him and his regeneration plans and he can help us
going forward but Mike over to you on spades in the ground. Thank you Mayor.
So as the Mayor has said there's been a work stream underway now for some time
Mr Mike Birch - 0:20:32
Working collaboratively with our district colleagues looking at opportunities to accelerate the enabling works for mass transit
And in the exchange with with Lord Peter Hendy before Christmas a commitment was reinforced on that matter
and that will essentially look like
proprietary works and passive provision which passive provision essentially means so all activity that will take place
within the kind of phase one
corridors of mass transit will all be mindful as we go forward over the next few years of making sure that those
Interventions take account of mass transit so that they're essentially preparing the ground so that when we get here
It will be delivered much faster and much easier than it would have been otherwise
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:21:22
No, I think that answers the question very fully thank you right the next one is councillor berry
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:21:47
The timeline for development of skills, is that what you were saying, Councillor Berry?
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:22:03
Mr Mike Birch - 0:22:07
So when the programme timescales were reset at the back end of last year, early this year,
it was absolutely with a risk management approach in mind.
So as the mayor outlined previously the innovative approach that the programme had previously taken to look at
running the business case in parallel with
the consenting and design process and
That whilst accelerated did import a level or be it an acceptable level of risk into the programme
So in that reset now putting in a sequential programme actually de risks the overall programme in delivery terms
ensuring that we successfully step through the business case processes with government to release the money to deliver this and then at the right time
recommence the design work and commence
consenting activities ready for main work starting in the 30s
But if I may say counsellor with our focus on
opportunities and training
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:23:06
and access to
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:23:08
apprenticeships and so on, that work has started and will not
stop because those jobs are out there and we, our young people,
need to be ready for the future.
And one of the visits recently I had a couple of weeks ago was
Kirklees College have a site that is a physical site that
will train young people on Trans -Pennine upgrade.
And there was a storey of a young man who had heard about it in
the pub, walked from his house to the site, got on the course,
and is now working on Trans -Pennine upgrade.
There are 5 ,000 engineers on that programme.
What we want to do is we want to say,
as the region of engineering, which we are,
that those opportunities with our new adult education budget,
with our skills budget, we are going to ensure,
with our commitment to more level threes than we've had
before, that those young people are ready for these jobs.
And there are many and various, not just engineering
on the ground, but transport planning,
the legal's that are associated with TRAM and so on.
There are a multitude of jobs that we want our young people
to be ready for.
Follow up?
Yeah, so having observed this process happening
in Nottingham and Sheffield, I completely agree with that.
And working where I work, I can see there are a lot
Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council) - 0:24:22
of young people for whom this is going to come up
at the key point in their career development.
We need to get them involved with it.
I'm trying to interpret the words and the confidence.
So what you're actually saying is this is a more secure way
of delivering the outcomes that we want
by having adjusted the programme accordingly.
What I'm trying to address is the,
every project has its critics.
If you'd followed the Sheffield project through,
it would never happen.
And the District of Headingley, I think,
has managed to stop two previous lead strand proposals.
So we're making sure that we get this absolutely right.
I do really get that bit about ambition and getting young people to think their way into those roles and jobs.
And certainly the university sector and other HE and FE sectors are a key part of that.
So thanks for the answer.
Right, thanks for the minute.
Yes, thank you.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:25:27
I wanted to ask how the CA is going to handle the minister's ask
Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council) - 0:25:29
in his letter of 13th of February.
A number of asks, but particularly the ones regarding the determination
of the most effective mix of modes and routes,
but also the street running versus reserve track issue running
through Brownfield sites and the earlier points in the letter
about densification and the link to residential commercial development and
so on.
Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council) - 0:26:12
Lord Peter Hendy has delivered light rail projects before and has also failed
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:26:16
in light rail projects before.
So he knows exactly how to deliver these projects,
and he also knows where the bumps in the road are.
So I could not be more pleased that he is the minister
that is going to work with us side by side
to deliver this project.
And in his experience, he also had very good detailed
questions about on road and so on.
His preference is, he has his preferences,
And we are going through all of the processes you would expect but I'll go to Mike because it's quite a technical question
Mr Mike Birch - 0:26:54
Yeah, it is a very good question
And and I would ask members to be assured that in the process that I outlined in the previous response
Around stepping through the appropriate stages of a business case is absolutely how you answer those those questions
So in assessing whether or not
The degree of on -street running versus off -street running the degree of which you try and access
Redevelopment versus existing patronage is all part of the complex model that will come together
In the coming years to address that point
But as the mayor has said what Lord Hendy kindly did both during his visits and indeed in the letter
Was was share some of his own learned experience from his previous time delivering these types of projects
Follow -up?
Yes, two questions.
Obviously Lord Hendy's experience
was very much
Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council) - 0:27:46
in the very high value areas of London.
How repeatable
and what differences are you going to be facing
here
in terms of that regard?
I have a second question.
It's land value
is obviously the challenge but also the
opportunity for us is potentially greater than London
in that we can then build on that connectivity
into the regeneration and make a substantive difference
to the outcomes for those communities.
In a way, sometimes that is so constrained in London
that you don't have that opportunity like that you've
seen in Dublin, for example, where their tram went
through a complete wasteland in the first instance and then you look at it
now and it's surrounded by shops and high -rise and it's absolutely stunning
nightlife and we have a that is the size of the prize that we want to grab but I
don't know if you've anything to add. Well I was actually going to invite my
colleague Tim to address that because I think it's got a strong connexion into the
business case world that Tim looks after. Thanks Mike and thanks Mayor. I think you
make a really good point that law attendees experiences
is rooted in high density areas.
Tim Lawrence - 0:29:06
And as the mayor said, where land value is perhaps
of a different nature than it is here.
But I think the thing here is there are two elements to this.
We think about the appraisal process,
which is kind of what underpins the business case.
And appraisal is something we probably
hear quite a lot about in the next two years.
How we appraise the options, how we monetize the benefits,
It's how we make that business case as strong as we can,
given the area within which we are.
And there are two bits of that business case.
There's the strategic part of that,
which is the argument that we make to government, the case
that says, not only is this a good idea from the economics,
which we'll come into in seconds,
but it's also about saying, as our mayor has advocated there,
what the mass transit system can do against our objectives.
That's improving the regeneration prospects,
improving the employment prospects, looking to do that higher value density
around the route and we can show that again through modelling and we
can make that case to the department that the money that they want to invest
has a rate of return that is as high as you would get if you would
invest in the south or the southeast. There is this misconception I think
that the bounds that it's easier to do projects or it's easier to get approval
for projects in the south or perhaps in the capital that's not the case the
appraisal system is not bias towards that and the cases the the skill and I
think we have that skill within the programme is being able to make that case
at a strategic level and translate that into the economics because those those
people are there they are going to take the tram and that development will come
And we can prove that through the business case
Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council) - 0:30:57
Yes, yes, it's on the the roots modes and mix
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:31:02
Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council) - 0:31:04
Is there going to be a further round of consultation in terms of
Link to the additional modelling that will clearly be involved in that or have you already done all of that?
The short answer is yes, inevitably.
We have been out once, we have a fantastic response about the routes that we have put
forward as options to be considered.
What we will do now is reaffirm that.
We will look at those routes again with a lot more detail.
We are obliged under the Transport and Works Act regulation order to go out and consult
Tim Lawrence - 0:31:46
again at that level of detail.
And the programme will also take a decision where at a specific point in time
If there has been a significant change or if we feel the public need to have their say again
And I think we'd all agree that they do as many points as we can make that and then I think we could go out again
And consult so we will definitely go out again consult as part of the transport and works act order
And then I think there is discussion to be had
Amongst the CA as to whether we go out again
And I turn a perhaps an outline business case time as well to reaffirm that commitment and to have that discussion with the public
Cllr Dave Merrett (York City Council) - 0:32:25
Obviously you've done the roots extensively what about the issue about the mix of modes
Well that will have to happen as well. But through the business case and
We will have a much better idea as to whether there will be a mix of modes. That's a potential
Okay, I think what we have to understand here as a group and as a programme and as a combined authority
Is that our aspiration is for light rail?
We have to go through the process of understanding
What we what we ask the government to invest in excess of two billion pounds is
This is not a trifling amount of money is it so we have to make sure that that mix is is correct
It's value for money
But at the end of the day, we have to ensure that we are promoting light rail as our preferred
option.
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:33:12
If I may just say, obviously, Tim is an officer, so he can't say what I'm about to say is that
it's going to be a tram.
And as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said on camera, when she was interviewed about
what mass transit was going to be, she said, and Tracy, I said it was going to be a tram.
However, we have to make the case.
and that is fine.
We are now in a process where we have to prove
it can't be a boss.
And that's fine.
We'll do that because it will be a tram.
My approach is the case has been proven that light rail
is a solution to connectivity in Manchester,
in Nottingham, in Birmingham, in Edinburgh,
in all of the cities across Europe.
The case has been made that tram is the game changer.
But we will go through the process.
And Tim and his teams are doing a brilliant job of
making that case, and that TRAM will show our
opportunity for growth, for regeneration, for jobs,
housing, all of those, the good stuff that you know,
we know that TRAM will deliver.
But there is a process to go through.
But we will do it in lockstep with government.
And I hope that you've seen from these letters the
partnership approach that we are taking.
Whilst there has been a bump in the road and it is
causes a delay that I'm enormously irritated about.
However, we are now at a place where actually let's, you know,
dust ourselves down and we are now side by side with government
and we share the same ambition.
We have the money confirmed.
We are on our way.
This project is not paused.
It's not delayed.
It is en route to delivery.
Ben.
Just just to add to what the mess said from a officer perspective
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:07
So and also I guess just to provide context for for councilman question
So we consulted extensively in 2021 on the mass transit vision for the whole of West Yorkshire looking at multiple
multiple corridors
We consulted again on multiple routes in 2024
And the next conversation that we we must do is a more detailed consultation on the preferred route
which will come at a future stage in the business case.
But what Tim says is absolutely right,
the business case will inform options around the technology
and around the detail of the routes
and we'll go through a continuous process
of wanting to ensure that they are the right
value for money options as we do that.
As the Mayor says, the ambition for what we want to achieve
is clear, but we have to make it stack up
in terms of the business case.
Thanks for Watson.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:36:01
Hi, thank you. So my understanding is that in our modelling for our decrease that we
expect to see in carbon emissions, that mass transit was part of our solution within that.
We know that decarbonising transport is one of the trickiest areas for us, as well as
obviously things like domestic heating. So with the – I mean, the project wasn't
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 0:36:23
supposed to come on until kind of the mid -30s, and we have a target of net zero by 2038.
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 0:36:28
So what impact does a delay have on our expectations of our transport
decarbonisation and what measures are being put in place to mitigate against
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:36:46
this? Yes I'll pick up the point on mass transit and then I'll maybe look to Ben
Mr Mike Birch - 0:36:54
on the kind of wider question and on wider mitigations. So for mass
transit the movement from mid -30s to late 30s and we still have an ambition
that we will get operational trends on the streets within those timescales to
secure the 2038 targets and if if the programme was to change either to bring it
closer or bring it further away then obviously that would would have an
impact but there's certainly at the moment the programme as it stands would
still look to achieve those targets within the 2038 timescales if I could
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:37:29
transport is our challenge and there's no doubt about it.
When it comes to carbon emissions, clean air, we have to tackle the cars on the road.
Now, obviously in some communities in West Yorkshire you need a car because you're on the hilltop in, I don't know,
Calder Valley or something, but what we are building is the opportunity where you could maybe drive to a railway station
or drive to a tram stop where there might be parking,
or being able to support car owners in isolated communities.
However, the integrated transport plan is the solution
or part of the solution for the climate emergency.
And of course, we want to go faster than that is laid out.
Any opportunity, we will take it.
So, for example, Bradford City Centre has a clean air zone.
We were able to lobby government that, look,
we've got a clean air zone, but our busses are diesel.
Help us deliver green busses for Bradford.
And through conversation with ministers,
we got eight million pounds for EV busses.
So we've just put in an order for 100 million pounds
worth of electric busses.
Because we are any opportunity, we will run at it.
We are developing a cluster programme for ground source
heat pump manufacturers and home energy.
We're short -shore, I think we've discussed before,
20 million pounds to get homes warmer and cleaner.
We will take every opportunity.
But fundamentally, transport is our challenge.
We need 100 percent green busses,
and that's our plan 2040. We also need people to have to make the choice that
their car is on the drive but they choose to walk 10 minutes to the bus or
the tram stop or they use the electric bike hire scheme that we've
rolled out not just in Leeds but in Bradford as well. We really really do see
this as an emergency, and that's why Devolution has given us this
opportunity to lead the way as being one of the greenest and
cleanest mayoral strategic authorities.
It is a priority for us, and please be reassured we have not
taken our foot off the gas in any way, and we will take up
all, literally, all of those opportunities.
And we are constantly pressing government for more money for,
for example, the warmer homes programme, et cetera.
But Ben, regarding mass transit?
Yes, thank you, so just on mass transit specifically.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:40:18
So as the mayor says, transport is definitely challenging.
And mass transit, I think there's two things
I want to say about, three things I want to say about that.
First is, it is an essential part of the long term
future for transport in West Yorkshire
in terms of reducing reliance on the private car,
alongside other measures that local authorities
of putting in place around reducing road space.
So it's central, and it has a key role to play in that.
That has to be balanced against the sunk costs of carbon
in constructing the project, which means that its payback period is over the longer term,
and critically, the energy sources that will provide the electricity for mass transit.
And I think I just wanted to point there to two things.
One is the climate and environment plan that we published last year
places all of that in context and shows the pathway to get to 2038 as the mayor
has outlined and secondly the work we're doing with an organisation called NISO
the National Energy System Operator who are looking at how you get connexions
to the grid for sustainable energy. We have to make sure that the energy that
is powering systems like the tram is is clean because otherwise it's not
contributing towards our target. Would it be worth mentioning Ben the carbon
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:41:32
literacy training we've been doing.
We've had a programme where we're supporting local
authorities as well in their understanding about
carbon and infrastructure projects because this is a
very, very complex area of construction and development.
So we all need to understand more.
We need to be more carbon literate.
And so we are funding colleagues to try and support local authorities and ourselves as an organisation.
And in fact, I've had a shortened version of the training myself and it is complex.
But the way that it was delivered was very straightforward and I really appreciated it and I understand a little bit more about it.
And as counsellors, if you do get the chance, do take up that training opportunity.
Thank you, Mary.
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 0:42:28
I mean as a scrutiny committee, we have looked at the climate plan. So we're really okay with all of the detail of it
So and we are fully aware that everything you've said, which is great. That's already that's already included
We know that we need to do those things. So my question is about we had an expectation
That it would help us because it's all about the emissions under the curve
It's not like we're gonna you know, it doesn't like if you're saying oh, you know, well, oh the tram will come in at 2038
so therefore we've hit net zero. It isn't that. It's the fact that we have a trajectory
and it's about the emissions that are under that curve. So if we had assumptions that
it was going to come in earlier to help us drive us closer and now it isn't, what I'm
asking is what have we re -looked at our modelling, are we actually going, we know we have to,
it's as you say Tracy, it's you know all hands to the pump, you know foot to the gas, whatever.
All of the things that you've mentioned we already know we need to be doing, they're
in our plan, we know that.
It is an emergency, as you've already said,
and we can see that in the plan you've written.
So my expectation would be that you've gone,
oh, OK, this was the assumption we had in our modelling.
It's now changed.
Therefore, either other sectors are
going to have to reduce their emissions more,
or we're going to have to do something else if we had made
the assumption in our modelling that it was going
to play a role that now it can't play that role.
So that was, I just wanted to sort of,
It was great to hear from you and we know that all of you are really passionate
We know that you know West Yorkshire combined authority has a great plan and a great target
It was really I didn't need a list of what we're doing. I want to know what are we going to do differently?
because
Something fundamental has changed in our planning
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:44:11
And I think that's a really good and challenging question and it's something definitely I will take away from this meeting
to understand more about but it has not it has not gone unnoticed and we're like
oh well forget about the climate and environment plan but Ben do you want to
speak to it directly? I will Mayor, if it's a kind of a technical answer that you that
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:44:31
any forecast has a margin of error and you have high and you have low scenarios
and the the immediate impact of mass transit on those carbon forecasts will
not be the determining factor about whether we hit or don't hit the target.
It's a key factor over the longer term, but there are many variables that have
all got associated margins of error with them, such as the two big ones
are around the rate at which buildings change their energy sources
towards green electricity and the rate to which we move towards electric EVs
and then within that the relate to which people switch towards green sources as
public transport and active transport.
So what I'm trying to say is that there are much bigger
uncertainties in the plan than whether mass transit starts
in the mid -2030s or a little bit later.
But we're constantly looking at what
are the impacts of the current trends on the plan,
and what does that mean for our carbon targets.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:45:32
And it may be that international circumstances,
as we've seen with the war in Iran,
that people are maybe making choices
to go to an EV vehicle beforehand, before they would maybe in their long -term plans,
and we are funding on -street EV charging for that, to encourage people to make that decision.
So as Ben says, there are many variables within the bandwidth.
What we want to do is also take the opportunity to offset that challenge that you've given
is really good and directly to make sure that whatever else is happening, that the process
of mass transit does not hold us back on delivering on that really ambitious target.
Let's not forget government target is 2050.
We are really ahead of the game and we are very ambitious in this space, but we also
– devolution gives us the opportunity to pull those levers and we will take every chance
to do so.
But I think it's something that I need to look at in a little bit more detail, but I'm
glad you've raised it, thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor McCarthy.
Thanks, Chair.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:46:49
Cllr Harry McCarthy (Kirklees Council) - 0:46:54
So many places in West Yorkshire aren't included in the first routes of mass transit.
What work is taking place to ensure that other public transport modes, including active travel,
fully integrated with mass transit. Thank you. Well in the first round we also were
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:47:14
looking at and I think we allocated a million pounds for how Tram would
travel out to Dewsbury and out to Kirklees as you'll remember but the
fundamental integrated transport plan is focused on active travel as a priority
as well. That's why you've seen the electric bikes here in Leeds. They've now been rolled
out to Bradford. I do believe that where there is a student population, and I would suggest
Hoddesfield, there would potentially be an appetite for electric bikes. So it is about
a partnership and a relationship with the council as well. But I do think with the really
ambitious plans for your cultural quarter, that within that there could be an opportunity
for active travel. We are investing substantially in protected cycle lanes
and as I said at the Combined Authority yesterday our threshold has to be would
you allow a seven your seven -year -old daughter to ride a bike on this road if
the answer is no then you need protected cycle routes. That's what we have to
deliver because we have to give people confidence that they will be safe on
their bikes. Now there is also a piece of work, hearts and minds, about
how you get people to even learn how to ride a bike or feel confident and we're
doing a fair bit of work there as well alongside great charitable projects.
There's one I saw recently which was people affected by a brain injury who
weren't able to travel, being taught how to ride a bike.
And it was very uplifting, and you did think,
this is incredible that now their world is open to them
because they can get around on a bike and no longer afraid.
So it isn't just about active travel,
it's also about how we use our cycle routes
and cycle lanes to be as inclusive as possible as well.
Got a follow up?
In bed.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:49:18
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:49:20
Just thank you just to add to what the mayor has said. I think all of that came together in the document that the combined authority adopted yesterday which was the statutory local transport plan and that describes the policy framework that the mayor has outlined.
And the I think the key thing just to add is that bus franchising as that comes in and
late will enable us over the longer term to really plan the networks so that they work
in a very integrated fashion.
We can't ignore that 75 % of trips are still made by private car.
So we have to make sure that the road network is functioning efficiently as well and that
the allocation of road space between public transport, that the walking and cycling measures
that the mayor has outlined and the private car is essentially balanced so that we're
maximising connectivity for the whole population.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:50:09
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:50:11
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:50:12
Thank you and you may have seen yesterday we also signed off monies for repairs of potholes,
just to Ben's point about making sure that the roads are safe for everyone.
I think the residents were very pleased about the extra money to deal with potholes.
Cllr Harry McCarthy (Kirklees Council) - 0:50:28
One of the things that I think, so for example my journey to get here would involve a bus
and then a train.
So I don't understand that integrated ticketing for example is a big part of the local transport
plan and what your plans are.
So how far are we on with making sure we have an integrated ticketing system when the Weaver
network comes into place and also how that integrate with mass transit as well?
Thank you that's a great question because I'm really proud that in West
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:50:58
Yorkshire we have one of the most sophisticated multimodal ticket offer in
the M card than anywhere else outside of London so I think we are quite far ahead
you can use it on on bus and rail. What we want to do with our transport plan
and we have work streams that are looking at the tech,
the ticketing, the integration.
My ambition is a tap -in, tap -out card that is capped
that you can use on bus, on tram, on train,
and also on bike.
So that's the ambition, we're working towards it.
Obviously, we're looking at franchising
in the first instance, so that bus offer, that Weaver app
is the work that's underway,
But we are also making it passively useful for tram as well
And so Barry
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:51:58
Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council) - 0:52:00
Yes, this one's on mass transit engagement about what plans and approaches we're looking to use to engage with both residents and businesses
affected by construction mass transit
But also those who stand to gain in terms of access to work and travel so that feedback and engagement can be built into a project
That assures and takes the community with it
Thank you so much, Councillor.
And absolutely, this is about a once in a generation infrastructure project.
Of course, we are hoping to bring the public with us.
And what has been so uplifting is that the majority of the engagement has been positive.
People are crying out for better transport.
And they are very excited and buy into the vision of a tram.
We've also brought in businesses.
We have 100 mass transit ambassadors from business
who in their world, in business meetings, talk
about how important tram is to their business and to
our communities.
But of course, construction and disruption is part of
the problem of change.
And we've seen it across Leeds, for example, when
people are really frustrated about the roadworks, but then they have a brilliant public realm
and would you change it back? Absolutely not. We love it. So we have to embrace disruption,
but of course there will be strategies in place as there are when we are building bus
stations and so on to support our work. What will be helpful is as we go forward into tram
and the disruption of tram potentially,
that we will have the control of the bus network
through franchising.
We'll have a central control from 2028.
So we will be able to be agile and responsive
to roadworks with our bus network
because we will have that overarching control.
It won't be different bus operators fighting it out,
but also working with our utilities like Yorkshire Water
in partnership and having that view.
Do you want to come in there?
Yeah, thank you, Matt.
So just to add a little bit more details,
obviously as Ben outlined in 2024,
we had the previous consultation.
We had a pretty successful return rate on that
of around 5 ,000 respondents.
We did learn an awful lot in that process
around some additional areas of focus
around reaching some harder to reach groups.
so work has already taken place on starting to establish those.
And prior to the programme reset that we've talked about,
that was starting to gather some pace around ready
what would have been the consultation on a single route
and a single mode.
So we will continue to evolve that thinking as we go forward.
But absolutely, accessing the full range of individuals
and organisations is part of what
we're trying to do in that consultation exercise.
I've got a follow -up.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 0:55:05
I'd just like to come back in so as well as looking for skilled engineers
Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council) - 0:55:09
And all the other construction what we're going to need some people who have good skills in engagement with the communities
So that this isn't just a one -off exercise it's a dynamic and flowing exercise and engagement is precisely that it's not this is coming
This is what's going to happen
And then I'm just reflecting that the bit I'm trying to make sure that we don't lose sight of is those people
who stand to gain and
That their voices are also heard in that process
But sometimes I'm a little bit harder if you go through a little bit of graphical
Berke's land up to lace today, which is where we're going and you look at what's there now
Which is pretty challenging to be perfectly honest and see what the impact has been where tramways have gone through
in other locations. I've got a stepson in Manchester, I go to Sheffield quite a bit.
I've got a friend in Nottingham. Similar sites to that in those other areas have been transformed.
So I want to make sure that we're also keeping our eye on the people whose futures will be benefited
by this because there will be challenging moments but if you get the right people with the right
skills to keep engaging and working with communities then maybe we will do something
better than other people have done.
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:56:28
And if I may add as well, councillors play a really big
role in this.
You know your communities better than anybody else,
so having full engagement from councillors to help us
understand the community, whilst we do have a really
responsive consultation team that have been leading a lot
of this work, as Mike said, you know,
we are mindful that we cannot afford to miss anyone
in this conversation.
This is a West Yorkshire project for everyone and it includes everyone
It's for everyone and so everyone should be able to have a voice but councillors us are really pivotal to that
So I want to thank you for the work that you do talking to your communities about the changes that are coming
Thank you, I think at this point I need to declare a non -pecuniary
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 0:57:21
I work for the equality and human rights commission and I work on its transport project as well
and in respect of public sector equality duty monitoring.
But I definitely resile myself from anything connected with West Yorkshire and the combined
authority.
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 0:57:43
So, mass transit plans refer to an EDI statement rather than an equality impact assessment
and I presume that's in order to meet the needs of the Public Sector Equality Duty.
How does the EDI statement ensure compliance with the Public Sector Equality Duty and how
is ongoing due regard being demonstrated in the development of mass transit
beyond assertions about equality in the EDI statement. Sorry I was getting a bit
legalistic when I wrote this and this includes the comp... I'll try and
translate what I wrote. Please Councillor because I'm lost currently.
Okay, so every function that this combined authority has is subject to the public sector
equality duty which is to have due regard to the three aims of the public sector equality
duty which is Equality Act section 149.
So it's basically to have due regard to equality.
So and that is an active duty from the beginning to the end of the project
And it's a duty to be evidence -led
not statement led but evidence -led so I
Suppose I was concerned when I heard that that there is an EDI statement which makes
which presumably makes broad assurances, but what I wanted to find out is how that actually plays out in the delivery of the project,
so that there is ongoing scoping and inquiry about how people with protected characteristics will be affected by the project,
the delivery of the project and the operation of the project.
Thank you so much and you serve as well on the committee so thank you for that.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 0:59:58
Nikki, I wonder if I could come to you because obviously this is about a legal approach as well.
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 1:00:06
So really interesting note to Tim but you're part of that commission.
When you are dealing with a major project as you know, the scheme life cycle takes,
sort of iterates itself in lots of different cycles and given the stage that we're at
and there's been realignment, when you're dealing with strategies prior to implementation,
that Section 149 duty continues and it's a constant circular view of how we will make
sure that we are discharging that function in regards to discrimination, making sure
that everyone's got full access. And when you're doing a major scheme of this kind,
it's quite conceptual in the beginning and as that scheme develops with the team it will
become more detailed and that duty it sort of layers and stacks on itself as you know
and I will be supporting the mass transit team in ensuring it's not just a statement
it's an evolving process so there's a legal analysis all the way through and as that that
the scheme becomes more and more detailed, we'll constantly do that review as well.
We're really mindful of that duty. It's an area that's been subject to legal challenge,
so we as an authority are really alive to that, and we will make sure that when the assessments are done,
and it's not just a statement, that we do a proper analysis of how that scheme's developing,
how it's affecting certain sectors of those people in the public that have got
protected characteristics, there will be a detailed analysis at that stage but
when you're at conception stage and you've got a strategy in place it's
circular as you know and I think we're in quite early stages so to give you
assurance the legal team will be working with the technical team to make sure
that that's properly analysed.
Thank you so much Nikki and Ben you wanted to come in.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:02:02
Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Matt.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:02:05
Just a few quick points for me to to build on what the mayor and Nikki have said.
So as an organisation, we're absolutely committed to the PSCD.
There's no really need to keep reciting that on the record and to early
engagement on those issues, as as Nikki says, throughout the lifecycle
of the project and indeed we had a whole workstream focused on this,
on the for mass transit and the
Nikki says this we will engage early
But this this really becomes critical at a later stage in the projects development
And if you wanted to look at our commitment to that then the place to look is probably not mass transit
But it's to look at where we are on bus franchising where yesterday at the command authority
We presented the results on the consultation in terms of bus design and bus features
And as a key part of that is interaction with the PSED
Yeah, just a supplementary question.
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 1:03:05
I would expect at this stage, and I agree that when you've got a complex project, it's
an iterative process and a developing process.
But the first stage is actually to be evidence -based and to work with your evidence and research
teams to gather what evidence there is at this current time and then to develop it in
the light of the project development itself.
Thank you.
If I could go to Tim just on that, that early work.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:03:39
Thank you, Mayor.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:03:42
I think there's a case here of just giving you some reassurance that this is in play.
you made very correct reference to the statement,
but within the statement there is a commitment
to undertaking EQIAs.
And I think what you're going to see is
as a strategic outline case is developed,
there is an EQIA being developed in parallel with that.
So I think we've got there haven't we,
with the sense of knowledge.
So when we produce the SOC,
there will be an EQIA that accompanies that,
Even though it is a relatively conceptual stage. We will be able to provide that evidence
I think that you and that we are obliged to provide under that in public sector duty
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:04:32
Great thank you, and I hope it's not another exam question, but I feel it could be so I'm really sorry
So I know that you've described it that we've you know had a kind of bump in the road and our delivery of mass transit
So, kind of, what are your lessons for us as a combined authority and also for us as
a scrutiny committee from the approach that we did take when we were trying to, you know,
kind of move forward?
And I know that, you know, Tracy and others, we've said it was an innovative approach.
So, what are the lessons for us to learn from some of the other big projects that we also
want to see delivery for?
Devolution needs to catch up.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:05:13
I think that is the lesson, that we want to run faster
as mayors, and the processes at the heart of government
haven't quite iterated in the way that we would need
to get that partnership approach.
We know that the system, it works as such that if,
once mass transit is built, there is a select committee
where someone had to speak to the project,
it wouldn't be me and it wouldn't be Ben.
Currently, it would be a civil servant from DFT.
I think that's crazy.
So, that's why this, the new reset has supported
the current system.
So, we are making sure that we go through every gateway
in partnership with government so everybody's reassured
that if they were in front of the select committee
that they would be able to speak to that.
Now, is that the right way to do it?
In Europe, mayors identify what they need to deliver,
and they can make those decisions.
I do believe the government want to help us in this space,
but I think the one thing that we've learned
is that devolution needs to be addressed
throughout every single department across government.
And there are some departments
where it's much more advanced than others.
So we're now working absolutely in the way that
government is used to working historically for
many other projects.
But Ben, come in.
Thank you, Madam.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:06:51
Just, I mean, I completely agree with what you've just
said, I think two points I'd make in addition.
Number one, this is the first time, or rather,
that a project of this scale that's not sponsored
by central government has been delivered,
and so there's learning both on our parts and on the
part of the Department of Transport, but the Mayor's absolutely right. The decision, the
final decisions about each gateway are taken by central government departments, ultimately
by Treasury and the arms length bodies that advise them, not by the Mayor. And that's
so, so we are doing two things as part of the learning from that. We're making sure
that we follow exactly all the current processes and guidelines that the Mayor has outlined,
But we're also looking to take forward a piece of work saying how would we prefer this to work and doing that in partnership?
with with government as well
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:07:48
I'm just I'm just interested and you may not think that was there anything that you felt that we as scrutiny
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:07:50
Should have done differently
Because I mean odd, you know, it's our job isn't it to you know
to look at the plans of the combined authority
and to scrutinise and ask hard questions.
Did we, and sort of asking your opinion,
did we miss something by not being a greater challenge?
No, I wouldn't say so because, I mean,
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:08:13
look at the situation.
We had the money to deliver it.
We had government buy -in.
We had the commitment from the public wanted it.
Business wants it.
Everybody wants it.
We were in a position where you, as you know,
normally you do, you know, you do the business case,
that's the right way, isn't it?
You do the business case first,
and then you do the planning in that sequential process,
and then you get the money.
But we'd been given the money.
So we were in a very different position
to other infrastructure projects.
But unfortunately, well, you know,
just the way that things are, that we were given it in a new way, but the system really
hasn't changed to that new approach.
So nobody could have seen this potentially, I don't think, because we were really positive
about the position we were in, that we didn't have to fight for the money, we didn't have
to prove the case.
Government understood that West Yorkshire needed a tram.
So I don't think you should be in any way critical of the
committee because we were in a position,
we were all in the same position that we thought this is a new
way to do things.
But remember, this is the first scheme that's retained like this
in the country.
There will be other mayors who are also,
when they have these big infrastructure projects,
also faced with the same challenge.
So actually, we're a first adopter, unfortunately.
So we are paving the way for other people to understand the
challenges that will face them.
That whilst the process of getting the money is
innovative and, you know, positive,
the process of delivery is still set in a particular way.
I don't know if you want to add anything.
That's helpful.
Thank you.
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:10:11
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:10:13
Yes, I've got a question that's at 15.
Cllr Paul Godwin (Bradford Council) - 1:10:24
It's on the development of the Dewsbury line.
Now I see under 7 .35, it's on page 36 of our report, that's been paused due to a calculation
of poor patronage, which I find surprising since having the tram creates the patronage
rather than the other way around.
At least that's been my experience of Manchester, where you had no patronage.
I don't know how you know you're not going to need a tram.
It's by putting in the tram that you create the people going there.
And indeed, the forecast of having a tram means development will be put in in anticipation
of it.
and I think Dewsbury in my opinion is an area
will benefit from that more than helping people get
to the IKEA at White Rose Centre.
Thanks Tim, do you want to answer that one?
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:11:19
Thank you for the question, thanks Mayor.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:11:22
But also may I say, can you just write to government
about that as well please?
So Tim.
That's an interesting point actually,
I think it's perhaps,
Tim Lawrence - 1:11:35
I wouldn't go so far as to say an anomaly of the appraisal system, but it's definitely
a quirk of the appraisal system.
When we try and forecast patching, we build a traffic model, and that takes the current
situation and it makes an assessment of how many people might use the tram based on a
from their origin to their destination.
It's quite a blunt tool in some respects.
There are, well, future patronage is then,
has to be done in a way that has some level
of certainty about it.
So you can input, if you like,
various development scenarios into that model
of great identification or greater change in land use,
for example, new developments.
But they have to be relatively certain.
So they have to be within statutory developed plans,
so your local plan.
And the fact of the matter is that that
is the process by which the department assesses
what the potential patronage might be.
It's a little bit like, if I can quote an old phrase,
computer says yes or computer says no.
And unfortunately, at a very basic level,
That's how we have to do it and having looked at the results and I've done this
In quite a lot of detail over the last four or five months from the Jews break kind of area
There's a lot of space between Jews brain leads and there is a lot of countryside
There's a very small ribbon of development of the a 653 Chidswell
and then it's a
lot of countryside between
Junction 28 and the white rose as a vast popular significant population within Jews break
but the types of journeys they're making at the moment are not necessarily to
areas that would be served by the tram at the moment and a lot of them take the
train to get to Leeds. So it's a mix of understanding how we can bend that storey
to make it fit a narrative both you and I understand is correct which is
development will happen, people will take the tram, it's just at the moment there's
a little bit of an anomaly to what the model says and what we know will happen.
So we rely on the strategic case, we rely on that argument that says development will
come, it is right for the region, it is right for that corridor, but we have to offset that
against the quite significant amount of costs of potentially carrying a lot of people, or
not a lot of people, through that swathe of countryside.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:14:20
So what I'm trying to say there, and what perhaps wasn't as clear as it could have been,
is that there's a delicate balance that we have to find between the amount of money it's
Tim Lawrence - 1:14:28
cost to build the scheme and how we make sure that we can evidence to the
department that those passengers that we know will happen will actually get on
the tram.
Thank you. Ben?
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:14:39
Can you clarify that for me?
It's not so much clarified Tim, it's just building what you've said and what the
Mayor said. The challenge as Tim's other than he's absolutely right. You might be
that the government is looking at what they call place -based business cases,
which aim to bring together business cases from different departments that
allow us to look at them in the round. And actually if you could project a
future where you're looking at the potential development in Dewsbury and
all that corridor and put that alongside the investment in mass transit, you get
to get a synergy that will justify the business case and that's what we're
to get the government to take on board by quantifying that strategic business case.
Yes, I mean I understand it, I mean I don't agree with it, but I think this is part of
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:15:33
Cllr Paul Godwin (Bradford Council) - 1:15:36
the hazard of it being run from, the budget being run from Westminster essentially, even
if you've got a chancellor who does at least represent this area, is a lack of understanding
of what it's going to mean to the areas you want to develop.
I mean, I think Leeds and Bradford are the most developed areas in many respects, and
you want, I feel you want to do something for the areas that are already poorly served.
Now, it's a monumental task for me to get from my house to Dewsbury and to get to Hadley
Facts and Hundersfield.
It means going into Leeds and going out again, and getting the tram route in would be a great
benefit to all concerned in the area and I just feel an opportunity may be
delayed if it's delivered eventually. Can I just say I 100 % agree with you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:16:21
The key is for us build the first spine, make the case, prove that this
makes the difference and once we've got that spine then my ambition is we have
the tree of networks that because we've made the case we've got this thing up
and running. And you saw that in Manchester, you see it elsewhere. It's just one line.
You just have to start with one line. And then everybody's convinced and people are
more, there's a greater appetite for maybe risk. So please bear with us because what
I can see is that the tram will unlock those communities that have been poorly served by
transport and bring in investment and you know what build it they will come I do believe that and I know that
You know UK reef is in a few weeks time when people talk to me about how they want to invest in our region
Transport is the key and once you've got that one spine you're on your way
Okay
thanks to Barry
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:17:35
You were on to Northern Powerhouse Rail and Electrification, question 11.
Yes, so the much needed and overdue project addressing the...
You want to pop your mic on?
Sorry, yeah.
Addressing the legacy of poorly planned Victorian infrastructure, which were uniquely beset
Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council) - 1:17:51
by Bradford, that's inhibited growth and travelled far too long.
Can you update the committee on the anticipated delivery times?
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:18:01
We in the White Rose Rail Plan, you'll have seen that we had a loose delivery plan.
What I'm very excited about is in the £45 billion worth of investment in Northern Powerhouse
Rail, something that has been promised for decades by the previous government, that we
are now going to be underway with that connectivity.
I'm also pleased that the three mayors with David Blunkett have been able to come together
to have that Yorkshire lobby group and we are first in the queue for the investment,
which is not something you can always say about Yorkshire.
And the time scales for Leeds to Sheffield, I'm going to come to Ben for that because it's in the plan,
We know that there is a real appetite to get underway.
And my strategic rail board that is, as I've said before,
is all of the players you need.
It's network rail, it's DFT, it's ourselves,
it's the train operators.
We are iterating that into the board,
the White Rose Rail Board that will be working closely with
government as well to deliver.
But Ben, if you've got a few more clear dates.
Thank you.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:19:19
I don't think I can provide complete clarity on dates.
You'll be aware that the government has announced
Norman Powers Rail and £45 billion
of potential investment.
We're now working with the Treasury and Department
of Transport teams and Network Rail
towards developing a set of business cases.
We're hoping that that will conclude
towards the end of this year.
and that will provide the kind of, I wouldn't say certainty,
but the set of forward dates that will give us
a bit of a clearer indication about when we can see
these projects actually completing their development
and business case process and coming into delivery.
But we are looking into late into the 2030s,
which is what was set out in the White Rose Rail Plan.
I think what's really heartening is the fact
that plan has been adopted in terms of the Northern powerhouse rail work broadly as it
is set out in the document.
So therefore that gives you an indication as to the priorities and how they have been
taken forward.
And it is reassuring that all of the work that we did collectively, telling government
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:20:28
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:20:30
what our issues were, what the challenges were, has been adopted by government.
So it does feel like we are in a very good place and as a Councillor from Bradford I
Sure, you're pleased as well that the next gateway for the new station in Bradford is this summer and we're definitely gonna hit that gateway
to the next step so, you know part of the
White -rose rail plan is not just electrification to Sheffield and to York. It's that new station in Bradford
That's definitely going to be the game changer
Yeah coming back on that. Yes
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:21:00
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:21:02
I mean, it's only a few years since one had to get a pacer to Sheffield and you were bouncing around in that inimitable nostalgic
way but the priority on this for Bradford in particular with our inhibited infrastructure
that's been there a long time is, you know, anywhere else in Europe, getting to Manchester
would be a matter of half an hour or so.
The fact it still takes you an hour and a bit to get to Manchester is quite concerning.
So what you're saying is that we're at the front of the queue, we've cleared a lot of
the obstacles, the commitments are there, and then we need to see the station will be
the key sign of intent as far as I can see in Bradford, getting a station that, you know,
smooths that journey.
Electrification is absolutely essential because you can't reach all your other targets unless
you do that.
I think the thing here is to keep people appraised of these milestones so that the confidence
is maintained because that confidence is a channel to business investment because getting
people to inform, you know, I don't want to go through all the old railway history
of Metroland and other things, it's been said several times in this meeting, if you
build the rail infrastructure then the investment and the jobs will follow but you've got
to have that faith to get it done.
Okay, well I think we're still, we're going to have to keep going on this to keep the
confidence and the commitment going.
If I could just say, regarding Sheffield, I was recently at the launch of the Yorkshire
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:22:38
Flyer, which is direct to Sheffield and is going to make a big difference, I think, into
the commuter corridor.
But also work is now underway for platform 17.
The extension to that platform, which means that the trains can have more carriages going
into Sheffield and into the West Midlands.
And to reassure you that I'm also working with Claire Ward,
the mayor of East Midlands,
to develop that connectivity as well.
Remember that when we had the Y of the HS2,
we were the first to go from the Midlands to Leeds.
That money was never rolled into the monies
that we've seen now for Northern Powerhouse Rail.
So we were poorly served twice, I have to say.
But getting fast trains from the East Midlands up to Sheffield and then to Leeds is also a priority
that I will be working with her on that deepening that
That plan but work is underway and I think your point about the capacity at Leeds station as well
That's really important the onward travel outside of Leeds station. It's helpful that the
protected land some of that land has now been lifted so works can get underway
but it's it's an ongoing challenge and these things take so long and are so
expensive but the good news is we're first in the queue and work is underway
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:24:15
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:24:16
Thanks for watching. Thank you again sort of sticking with the rail questions so
We told the storey that once we get a through station in Bradford, so I'm a Bradford
Councillor, I went and had a good look with some of the officers around that whole area
and we talked about the challenges. So we told the storey that a through station will
help transform the economy of Bradford. And so I was kind of trying to get my head around
other areas or other cities that are like Bradford. So Doncaster is on a main line,
it's on the main East Coast main line, it has seven train companies serving it, but
ONS data show us that Doncaster and Bradford had similar levels of deprivation. So I want
to understand what evidence are we basing our assumptions on that by having a true station
in Bradford, we will actually have a different journey and a different outcome than a city
like Doncaster that is actually far better connected than Bradford can ever be. So I
just can't make that narrative fit in my head with looking at other cities that are better
connected. So I don't know if anybody can tell me where I need to look for the evidence
that we've worked out that this is the thing that will actually decrease deprivation in
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:25:39
our city. Thank you so much and really as always a really intelligent thought
through question thank you very much for that. Now I don't know the makeup of
Doncaster but what I do know is that the investment that we've already put into
Bradford whether that's around the city centre, whether that's the
public realm, already we are getting investors come to Bradford because of
of our confidence.
Bradford City Village, for example,
you know that high quality housing in the centre of
Bradford, Dali Street Market.
Bradford has been spoken about in a different way.
Now, we have a station in Bradford that is,
it's a cul -de -sac.
You go in and then you come back out again.
That is not going to help our productivity.
It doesn't make us look like a European city.
And you'll have seen Bradford's pitch for UK Reef and their investable propositions.
Their ambition is off the scale and you deserve, as a Bradfordian, a railway station that matches
that ambition.
I see it as like King's Cross.
All of that redevelopment around King's Cross that make it not only an extraordinary station,
but also investable because of the retail offer, the business and so on.
So the work has been done to make the case to government
that, and there are the numbers attached,
there are tens of thousands of jobs,
there are opportunities for investment,
the lift in the economy.
I'll come to Ben in a minute, but rest assured,
this is a game changer for Bradford,
notwithstanding all the other stuff that's also ongoing.
Bradford City of Culture has also been a massive lever
that has turbocharged investment and delivery for the city. It's such a great
opportunity for us in West Yorkshire. The Young is the most diverse community. We
have graduates underemployed in Bradford because they can't get to Leeds, they
can't see opportunities in Halifax and so on. Having that opportunity to get to
and the
city of Manchester via Hoddesfield is going to
be a game changer.
Ben?
Thank you.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:27:55
I guess a bit of more technical
background
to underpin what the mayor has just said.
I think most people would argue
that transport
connectivity is actually
essential
but it is necessarily not
sufficient
on its own.
It has to be part
of a broader strategy
and as the mayor has done
I refer you
to the built different
strategy that Bradford
have gone live with this week
that really sets out the different elements
that need to come into play in terms of regeneration,
place making, working with communities,
investment in skills, to get the full benefits
of agglomeration.
We had a previous conversation about business cases.
The real game changer for Bradford from the investment
in the station is the reduction in journey time
between Leeds and Bradford from the current
kind of 25 minutes down to less than 10.
That kind of non -marginal change is what can lead
to business to business and market growth
through agglomeration over time.
It's not an overnight thing.
That can lead to sustained economic growth.
And that kick starts the kind of virtuous circle
that the mayor has talked about.
So it's the combination of good transport policy
making non -marginal changes in combination
with all the other factors that are essential to create sustainable economic growth that
ultimately leads to both agglomeration economies within Bradford and between Bradford and its
surrounding places. That's what we're here to help Bradford achieve.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:29:31
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:29:34
I'm sure Councillor if you were to speak to colleagues at Bradford they have they have
the very detailed business case and numbers for you.
Well, they weren't actually able to answer the question
when I did the walk with the officers,
so I'm not sure that they could,
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:29:48
because I asked them that same question,
and they were a bit confused about why Doncaster itself,
and obviously Doncaster itself
has had a lot of regeneration schemes
and a lot of money poured in over the years.
So I'm not saying that I'm not supportive of the scheme,
I'm just it's just interesting to think about why we think
Something's going to be different in another place when we can see somewhere that it didn't work
And also I suppose in some ways what are the you know?
We'd always want to know what are the learning from that and what is different but yes
Thank you, I just want to come in on the back of that
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:30:25
Well, I think it's only to say that
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:30:30
It's just return to a point about it being a non marginal change. So so Doncaster has always been a railway city
and it benefits from the engineering and the railway industries that have located
there and the logistics industries that locate there and there's a growing
market of population that are commuting using the LNER
services to commute particularly towards London and the southeast for
work. So I don't think it's the case that Doncaster has had no effect or no
benefits from being on the East Coast mainland. Quite the contrary, I think the
counterfactual is what would it be like if it wasn't on the East Coast Main Line.
But like I said there's a complex cocktail of factors that have to come
into play and be deployed in a sustained and consistent way over long periods of
time. And if I could also add it's what Ben was saying about the agglomeration
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:31:20
about bringing Leeds and Bradford closer together with a you know population of
the size of Scotland. What an opportunity that is and particularly supporting
Brad Fordians and their businesses to access Manchester Airport in a way they currently
can't in the same way.
You know, it's opening us up to further opportunities, business opportunities.
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 1:31:56
Hi, yeah, it's really good to hear about Northern Powerhouse and it was really good to hear
about the investment for Ellen station as well.
Earlier on today.
I did suggest everybody in Ellen should do a jig after 20 years of waiting for that station.
It's been a very, very long time. When I first heard about it, I didn't have any white hair.
So my question is really about the Coldervale line, which is, it keeps on falling off the agenda.
There was a motion last year at the Calderdale Council which was supported unanimously.
So there's consensus across all parties about our concern about the development or the lack of development in terms of the Calderdale line.
The case for its electrification was made ten years ago and we're not seeing any progress
in that.
I suppose the question that I'm asking is can you use your influence, because I know
at the end of the day it's the national government's decision, isn't it, not your decision, but
your influence to ensure that it doesn't fall off the agenda,
that the case for the electrification
of the Caldervale line is made, that Elland Station isn't just
a wonderful thing for Elland.
It actually links to a fully electrified rail system.
10 .8 million passengers used the Caldervale line last year.
So it's really important that it doesn't fall off the agenda and that Westminster understand that it remains a priority for West Yorkshire.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:33:57
Please be reassured, you'll have seen it in the White Rose Rail Plan. It's an ambition that we share and I know it also gives us choices and greater capacity.
That's the challenge that we face.
We're not like London where if there is a problem in the
Trans -Pennine line, then you have choices.
Are the busses, are the routes, you can make your way
to your destination.
Eventually, we have a real challenge.
So, please be reassured.
It hasn't slipped from my priority.
We are in a phased process through the White Rose Rail
Plan, and we are starting with the capacity it leads,
Leeds, Sheffield, York and Bradford News Station but it is still there, it is still in the
plan and when monies are available we will be definitely pressing for it.
But Ben did you want to come in?
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:34:46
I think May have actually said the two things I wanted to say, the first of which was it
is in the White Rose Rail Plan so it will be something that we are continuing to press
for with government but also please don't underestimate the first critical state of
Is the electrification of the line from Leeds to Bradford interchange?
Because you've got to do that before you would then in electrify and make the line improvements from beyond from Bradford
towards Halifax and beyond so
So so the thing with the railway is everything everything is connected and integrating with everything else and this is a really important first step
kind of timber
Yes, another concern that we have is that if there's this
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:35:26
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 1:35:30
stepped development of electrification, that that will have an impact on the type of vehicles
that will be used and that that will actually build in costs to the, you know, to the network
in West Yorkshire.
If, you know, you're travelling down one line, you can use properly electric trains.
If down another line you have to use a hybrid solution, and hence the importance of actually
making the arguments to ensure that you don't actually build in additional costs at this
transitional stage.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:36:09
We don't procure the trains but from my strategic partnership meetings I know that the railway
companies are absolutely alive to this challenge so hybrid I think has been the preferred choice
So they are ready for change
Thank you and actually that last question
Cllr Hannah Bithell - 1:36:33
gave a little bit of what I imagine the answer to this one will be and
Obviously the electrification of key routes is really really positive
But having worked for years on LNER and knowing what it is when the electrification goes down
Are we going to be making sure that all the alternative?
routes that drivers have the route knowledge to travel on, because you can't take any route,
either have appropriate electrification as well as the main routes that we will expect
them to take all the time, or are we going to have enough rolling stock that's still
diesel to be able to effectively work through disruption.
Thanks.
Thank you.
We're currently not running the railways.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:37:15
Understanding the sort of technical delivery on a day -to -day basis is not an area of specialism
for me, but I do challenge the talks about their training programme, their driver knowledge,
the fact that they've recruited more drivers, but they are new and need the training of
particular routes and also the capacity for rolling stock and also freight is in
there as well because let's not forget that freight is also something they have
to manage on the railways so I'm sorry I can't give you a very detailed answer to
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:38:04
that unless a colleague can. Ben? I don't think I was
Cllr Hannah Bithell - 1:38:05
necessarily aiming for you to be able to answer it today I guess my request is
more around can that be raised in the meetings that you're in with rail strategic parlours
in the long term.
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:38:23
Well, certainly about drivers has been a perennial problem and ensuring that with Trans -Pennine
upgrade the new trains that they have brought on, that they are Trans -Pennine is across
the whole of the north, so they need to know all of those routes, but that also then slows
up the pipeline of drivers, et cetera.
So it is something that we do discuss but definitely happy to put that on the agenda
Q right. Well now moving on to trade missions and international links. So Councillor Rontree
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:38:51
Do I know Councillor Watson's
Suggested that you go in before
Thank you
Cllr Andy Rontree (Leeds City Council) - 1:39:03
By the man start with a really open question, I hope it's an open question
What benefits do you think West Georgia gained from the trade
mission to Switzerland and Germany?
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:39:23
Ms.
I was the first mayor, we were the first delegation to go to
Switzerland, so soon after the Berne Agreement.
I've been able to tell the storey about the Northern Square Mile
here in West Yorkshire.
We are the largest financial and professional services cluster
outside of London.
But also to take businesses with us to make those deals,
have those conversations.
and also to meet the Swiss ambassador, to say that we want
to partner with Switzerland given our areas of specialism.
The outcomes have been terrific.
Deals signed, follow -up meetings in the diary,
but that was only one part of the trade mission.
We also met the chambers of commerce,
so our businesses met each other.
We also identified opportunities to share knowledge through our university and also
the universities in Germany.
It was a really successful trade mission and it is my job.
It is in the handbook of being a mayor.
You have to be an ambassador and a champion for your region, but I also have to enable
businesses to be exposed to opportunities.
And we have understood that actually one of the biggest successes was the delegation we
took with us, the different businesses, that they, between them, also benefited, notwithstanding
the businesses and the people they met on the trade mission.
So which one of your follow -ups do you want to ask?
Right.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:41:24
Cllr Andy Rontree (Leeds City Council) - 1:41:25
I think actually I'll go with the education side, if I may.
Do you identify any scope for collaborating in the vocational education, exchange of students,
teaching staff, that kind of thing?
Absolutely.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:41:51
Obviously, the challenge is that we are not in the customs union.
We are outside of Europe.
However, the opportunity for us is making the civic
relationships and the relationships
between institutions.
So we went to KIT, we went to EPI, which is a centre of
excellence on innovation, and already there are
relationships with Leeds University talking.
We met Schreider, who make trains.
We met with them and talking about an opportunity to set up a head of tram and also Northern
Powerhouse Rail, a centre of innovation around rail and tram, bringing together our areas
of expertise.
It was a really exciting outcome.
There was particularly around AI and space was also discussed with our areas of excellence
in our academic institutions.
Just to, if it's helpful, I keep doing this in this session, but refer back to the Kumbhara
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:43:09
Authority meeting yesterday where the Kumbhara Authority approved the international strategy
for economic growth and there's a section in there on international students and how
they can be facilitated. There's more detail there.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:43:26
Just on that point, on the trade mission with the Prime Minister to India, it was very interesting
to meet other universities and vice -chancellors who are going to other countries to set up
universities in situ so they can train students there rather than necessarily the international
bringing students to our universities but also sharing the knowledge between
the two countries. I think that's going to be a real game changer and I know
that Yorkshire universities are looking to join us on the Indian trade mission
with the Great North. All of the northern mayors going together to India in the
autumn and we will of course be taking some of our exceptional universities
with us to to make that case we should share knowledge. Since the mayor mentioned
India and you've got another question further down. Do you want to do your question just
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:44:20
now on the India mission?
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 1:44:30
I was also going to follow up with this just asking about having done this. Are there any
sort of lessons that you can take to the proposed India mission and beyond?
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:44:41
Well, the more I do, the better I get, that's for sure. And I know that we have an opportunity,
and we're going to be in competition with other mayors as well, so we've got the opportunity
to really make the case for West Yorkshire. And as we build our investible proposition
for our region, remember, we've only had a mayor for five years, so try to understand
and the changes that we've already made to build on those
to make us a magnet for investment.
But the one learning that I identified just in my previous
answer is the people you take with you and the benefits they
can get and to empower them to make their own meetings and to
cluster between themselves.
So, for example, when we went to the U .S.,
having a number of businesses that worked in space,
They had their own independent meetings with
businesses that they then got deals with and so on
that I didn't necessarily need to attend.
I was doing other things.
So being able to make the most of the people you're
taking with you.
But Ben.
Thank you.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:45:53
Only to add that an international strategy for
economic growth we talked about just now sets this
out.
You learn every time you go and it's about building
sustainable long -term relationships in which businesses understand the role
that we're playing and the role that they can play in terms of the markets
that they're seeking to access. So with all these trips as the mayor says we
take a selection of businesses some of whom would already have an established
trading relationship or have operations in the country that we're going to and
more importantly in the part of the country that we're going to and you'll
see from the strategy that we talk about India. India is obviously a huge
a huge country, we are very targeted in terms of the sectors and the places that we go to,
taking businesses for whom that is relevant. So you have got businesses that are looking
to build relationships and businesses that are looking to build on existing relationships.
That's why this is a long -term programme.
Thank you.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:47:03
Cllr Hannah Bithell - 1:47:05
Are we looking to use any adult skills money to work on language acquisition in adults
to support our international trade opportunities?
That's a really interesting question.
hadn't crossed my mind.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:47:20
What we are doing is we are doubling our investment in
ESOL, if that's of use, to just answer a little bit of
that question.
But when it comes to other languages, I suppose trying
to get to the nub of your question, are we teaching
people German in order to go on trade missions to
Germany, is that what you're suggesting?
Cllr Hannah Bithell - 1:47:39
I was thinking more the languages that we are now
engaging with on trade that aren't the sort of
traditional European languages that are somewhat taught in schools so that we can have a generation
of people who, for example with Mandarin, Hindi, etc., where we can then be at the front
of the quote unquote English speaking world's engagement with trade in those areas.
Thank you.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:48:06
Obviously schools curriculum is for schools and language is part of a school curriculum.
What is tragic is that languages have been eroded in schools.
Oh, for adults.
Oh, for adult skills.
There is no plan currently to be running those programmes,
but we do ensure that when, before I arrived,
the CA went to China, and we have colleagues
who speak Mandarin.
So you would, of course, surround yourself with people
who could speak the language.
but whether we were training people to speak languages of areas that we have a trading
relationship with. It's not something I thought about, so it's a good provocation. Thank you,
Ben.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:48:54
Thank you. I don't think I have much to add other than to say that obviously the adult
learning system is still learner -led, and so actually the role that we may well have
is in advocating the importance of those languages and of languages generally to the learner
community and do that both through businesses that often sponsor people and
to people directly. But as the Mayor says we'll take that one away.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:49:23
Thank you so much. Sorry I've not had a chance to look at the international
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:49:27
strategy but now I'm aware that that's there. It shall become part of my
I'm just asking, obviously the more that we do international travel, obviously there's
a carbon emissions from that.
I'm just wondering within WICCA's corporate policy, what do we do, how are we offsetting
those emissions?
So the more that we do, I'm imagining in the international strategy that will require more
international travel and therefore associated carbon emissions with that.
So I'm just wondering what is in place internally that we are off trying to, I mean I don't
believe in carbon offsetting, my thing would be to reduce demand, but I imagine it is something
that a corporate body like WICAR can do in the short term.
So I'm just wondering what the policy is and what action is taken to offset those emissions
and particularly as we are, if we've got a strategy now we're going to see potentially
more aviation travel.
Thank you.
And I just want to reassure you that wherever there is the opportunity, we will take the
train.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:50:32
In Germany, we took the train.
In the U .S., we took the train.
I prefer the train over flying, so I will always take the train.
But, of course, as an organisation, we do have a view about what we can achieve.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:50:57
So our corporate carbon reduction strategy is still in development but what I'll do is take away what you're saying and make sure that is an explicit part within it.
Thank you, that's great.
Cllr Anna Watson (Bradford Council) - 1:51:05
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:51:15
question session. Can I thank the mayor and Mike for coming along today. Can I also thank
Mike who is first on his last scrutiny so he has managed to do both on the same day.
But this is the last meeting of the Scrutiny Committee so
If you just hold on to sex the next item six is the next steps in the work plan

6 Next Steps and Work Plan

I think what we're going to do now is just pass on this work plan to the successor body and
It'll be up to them to decide what's going to happen. Yes. Sorry councillor Merritt. Just before you reply
I would like to say councillor Anderson. This is also your last
I want to thank you personally.
You have held my feet to the fire.
You have always been curious and always very intelligent questions that really do.
Mayor Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire - 1:52:06
You are a critical friend.
You have been a fantastic colleague.
Thank you.
And all the best in your next steps.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:52:17
Thank you.
Yes, it was just on the Ford plan. There were actually only three items that were listed more than a month away
Clearly in terms of pre scrutiny a
Rather larger Ford plans required and I appreciate we're at the end of the year, but nonetheless
I'm sure there are a lot more items that are working their way down the line
three in June
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 1:52:48
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:52:51
Well I think there's a number that will definitely be coming forward
mass transit, bus franchising, we'll keep an eye on that. There's also the
devolution because we've got more clarification as I said at the beginning
one of the papers that was taken yesterday was the integrated settlement
and the outcomes framework is going to follow on from that and I would have
thought there would be a role for scrutiny to look at the baseline figures
and what action plans are in place and there's a number of other things that
are going to be coming down the line that I think with the new revised
governance structure my understanding is that scrutiny should have
more to do in terms of doing more pre -scrutiny inquiries which
in the past may have gone to some of the themed committees will
to be coming to us when I say us I mean scrutiny in general whoever whoever I
think that's one of the things that we'll need to add to it and also because
yes if you if you're not interested in what I'm saying you are able to go
but there's a number of other things coming down the channels that will require scrutiny
to take a more active interest. That's why it's been delayed, the AGM's been delayed
until June so that we can try and fit in all these new strategies because we're going to
have to think about how we're going to have to work through all of these issues. So, Councillor
Watson, yes.
I think an exit interview with someone would be really key and also I don't know if there
is any chance to do handover. I don't know.
I'll leave it to my two colleagues on my left and to my right.
I think you've run it in a very different way and you've been building a group of people
and a team around you.
So in terms of exit that's not something that happens with members when they're moving on
all the stepping down. It's a really good point though, but they're not employees, you
are politically elected. Yeah, you are an office holder.
But you've done something and you've learned, I mean it would just be interesting even if
it's a chat and a coffee.
And I think that's where I was coming to. I think some sort of discussion of what your
top tips are or something about what you found worked really well for the Combined Authority
and what didn't. I think that's definitely something that we can sort of facilitate.
but equally whoever is sitting in this chair next new municipal year they may
wish to do things completely different and they might not agree with the way
with respect Councillor Anderson but I think we need to get something down if
Cllr Kate Haigh (Leeds City Council) - 1:56:21
you want to do actually do I have a number of meetings in the day
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:56:26
We've already looked at, for with Cal in particular,
we've got one next week, so yes, we can start that process.
It might be any of you sat around the table that might,
you know, you don't know what's going to happen.
Councillor Ritchie.
Thank you.
There is a tradition in the political world,
isn't there, of leaving a letter in the desk
Cllr Andy Rontree (Leeds City Council) - 1:56:41
for your successor?
I wonder if...
It depends on the office.
It doesn't always go so well,
but you may think it's worth taking a pop at that approach.
I'll try to go up with some suitable phrase to put in there.
But yes.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:56:56
I had this once when I took over as a portfolio holder in Brabham in 2010 and he passed away
and it was a very nice chap from the Tory group, Michael Kelly, very well.
Cllr Ralph Berry (Bradford Council) - 1:57:18
.
.
Cllr Barry Anderson (WYCA Scrutiny Chair) - 1:58:47
.
Mr Jonathan Timbers - 1:59:35
I have a work colleague who lives in your ward and he has nothing but praise for you.
.
.
Mr Mike Birch
West Yorkshire Combined Authority
View profile Mr Mike Birch