Governance & Audit Committee - Friday 30 January 2026, 10:00am - West Yorkshire Combined Authority Webcasting

Governance & Audit Committee
Friday, 30th January 2026 at 10:00am 

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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  3. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  4. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  5. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Cllr Mohsin Hussain
  8. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  15. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  2. Cllr Falak Ahmed
  3. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  4. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  5. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. David Jenkins
  9. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  10. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  11. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  12. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  18. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  19. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  20. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  21. David Jenkins
  22. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  23. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  24. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  25. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  26. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  27. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  28. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  29. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  30. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  31. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  32. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  33. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  34. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  35. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  36. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  37. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  38. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  39. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  40. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  41. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  42. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  43. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  44. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  45. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  46. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  3. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  4. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  5. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  6. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  7. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  10. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  11. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  12. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  13. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  14. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  15. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  18. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  19. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  3. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  4. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  5. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  10. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  15. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  16. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  17. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  18. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  19. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  20. Cllr Stewart Golton Leeds City Council
  21. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  22. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  23. Cllr Stewart Golton Leeds City Council
  24. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  25. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  26. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  27. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  28. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  29. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  30. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  31. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  32. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  33. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  34. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  35. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  36. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  37. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  38. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  39. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  40. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  41. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  42. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  43. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  44. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  45. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  46. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  47. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  48. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  49. Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  50. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  3. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  4. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  5. Cllr Falak Ahmed
  6. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  7. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  8. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  9. Cllr Falak Ahmed
  10. Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars
  11. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  12. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. David Merrett (Independent Member)
  15. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority
  18. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  19. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  20. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  2. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  3. Cllr Falak Ahmed
  4. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  5. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  6. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  7. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  8. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  9. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  10. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  11. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  12. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  13. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  14. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  15. Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance
  16. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  17. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  18. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  19. Rob Winter (Independent Member)
  20. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  21. Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation
  22. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  23. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  24. Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council)
  25. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  26. Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority)
  27. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
  28. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member)
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  1. Webcast Finished

Good morning everybody and welcome to Governance and Audit Committee.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:00:19
We're going to make a start.
Agenda item 1, apologies for absence.
Apologies for absence, Chair.
I have been received from Councillor Mohsen Hossain and also Councillor James Homewood
with Councillor Harry McCarthy kindly attending as his substitute.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:00:37
Agenda item 2.
Any declarations of interest?
No?
That's fine.
If we can record that, please.
Agenda item 3.
This is exempt information.
and officers have recommended that gender item 9 appendix 2 is excluded from being discussed
in public, so we close the meeting and reopen once we have discussed that particular item.
Members are asked to consider whether to accept the officer's recommendation to deal with
this in private session. Are committee members happy to accept the recommendation?
Yeah.
Can we have a show of hands?
It's really important.
Yeah, we can.
Okay, that's fine.
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 0:01:27
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:01:30
Okay, thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:01:45
you and agenda item four is minutes from the last meeting and any comments or
changes to note yes counsellor
Richard
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:02:07
Cllr Mohsin Hussain - 0:02:12
Did I see another hand? Yes, Councillor De Klerk. Just one or two things at page four
I assume that should be members disapproved of the suggestion of keeping servers dormant.
And just on that, it goes on to say that members sought further information on these measures
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:02:42
ahead of the next meeting.
I don't think we've heard anything else about what the keeping servers dormant.
So, it's just a note that I don't think we've heard anything more.
And then just on page, sorry, to go back to page three, paragraph 26, it was, we were
talking about programme risk being documented as opposed to having risk registers per individual
project members requested senior officers attend next committee meeting
to explain this approach so I don't know whether that's going to be dealt with
today in any of the things that we're talking about or thank you from would
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:03:29
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:03:32
you like to take that yes just a very brief update management have accepted
those recommendations and have implemented
risk registers in those projects.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:03:43
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:03:46
Okay, thank you. And the last one was page six, paragraph 30, where we had a closed session
and there were three bullet points on the top of page six.
Officers unable to answer in the moment committed to returning to a member's on a particular point about cyber essentials and resources
and also officers would look at the wording in a report concerning wording of attack and
breach in relation to data.
So just if there's any update on that, whether that should be in this, should it be discussed
now and should it be discussed privately because it's closed session but it's in the minutes,
I don't know.
the
Any other
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:04:41
slides to address that?
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 0:04:43
With regards to the identified risk that was discussed in
private, there is an update from my colleague in regards to
cyber security specifically. There's some specific work
underway and there is going to be a separate session with
and that equally will deal with these points that were raised at the last committee. Thank
you.
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:05:15
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:05:18
Thank you. I've just got one minor point to add. I'm not sure Ben was at the last meeting,
were you?
Good question.
Can we just cheque and…
We'll cheque whenever I was there.
Thank you. Thank you.
That sounds terrible, doesn't it?
I am sure you would have been there.
I think you might have been coming which month.
I might have been it, okay.
I am sure you would have been there.
If you were, you would have been there.
That was my query.
Any of those questions or comments?
Just to confirm the chief executive did attend the last meeting.
Yes, thank you. It has been confirmed.
Sorry, it is my memory. It is my memory. Terrible.
If there's no further questions, then we will, if it can be noted that the minutes of the
last meeting have been agreed. Do you want a show of hands for that?
We're moving on to Agenda Item 5 and that's the update on Internal Audit and it's for
to note. So a link to the report on the dashboard has been included in the pack, so hopefully
you've all seen that. I think the pack is shaping up well, so I'd like to thank Bron
for that. I think it's giving a better picture and I also appreciate that you've pulled out
the key themes, so we're starting to look at those as well, which I think will be really
valuable. Just for the committee to note before we progress discussing the paper, I've had
an update on the actions being taken in relation to the digital transformation audit outcomes
and we have agreed that due to the complexity of the matters being worked through, rather
than look at that in detail today, a full report will be brought back to committee.
So we will get visibility of what is happening in that space.

5 Internal Audit Progress Update

Bron, do you want to pick up on and present the report?
Thank you, Chair. So I'm going to take the reports as read, but just to expand on the
cover report and to confirm, we've been doing quite a lot of work internally within the
team and with the business to tighten up on deadlines for reporting information back to
internal audit, for making sure that the deadlines for teams in terms of work, et cetera, are
into our monitoring tracker. So just again to say and as I've said at
previous meetings the way in which we report we are continually looking at
ways in which we can improve that but we're going to stick with the current
reporting format till the end of the plan year because as my team will attest
their focus at the moment is entirely on deliver the audit plan by year end. So
we're not going to mess about with the reporting any further but I do welcome
anything back from committee where we think we can make some improvements with the new
plan year.
So I invite those comments back as part of committee feedback on this.
And then secondly, in the cover report, the outcomes from audit work, I talked a bit in
there about the work that the monitoring officer and I are doing in relation to developing
integrated assurance reporting for the organisation and just wanted to update the board to say
We took a paper to our corporate board this week, which was well received, and we are
going to implement some of the actions that came out of that reporting.
And again, we'll bring the full report back to the next committee meeting to, A, give
you confidence in terms of what we're doing, but also to confirm the timelines of when
we expect actions to be in place.
So that was the only additional updates that I had, Chair, but very happy to take any questions,
and then have a drink.
Thank you. Any questions?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:09:00
Cllr Falak Ahmed - 0:09:05
Thank you, Chair. As you explained it, can you explain briefly why management responses
to internal audit are taking an average of 25 working days against a target of 10? And
what action has been taken to ensure audit findings are treated as a priority by senior
management? I can answer that in part and then I'm sure there will be other
officers here who will also want to respond. We have had a few issues around
getting timely responses. A lot of it has been I think a little bit about
awareness so we are offering to go out to our director at Alcon boards to do a
little session on what the role of audit is, what the expectations are and what
the mandate is from this committee in terms of how we approach our work and how we do
our work. So it's a little bit of awareness and training. It's a little bit about audit
being quite firm about deadlines and actually setting those clearly and I think we could
have done that better. We could have been a little clearer with the business on firm
hard deadlines in terms of reporting. We've made some updates there but equally the onus
is on management to respond to us. When we go out and ask for information, we're doing
it because we are charged with giving assurance to the senior leadership, to the business
and to this committee. So that is part of the conversation we've been having at some
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:10:38
of our officer boards. It was part of the work that the monitoring officer and I are
doing about integrated assurance, making sure people understand the importance of responding
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:10:50
in a timely fashion. So I'd say there's quite a few root causes and we are trying to address
those in the most appropriate way to get better progress. It is at the moment not where we
need it to be and I think we do, we definitely need those messages coming back from both
this committee and the senior leadership team. And Ben has done a number of blogs out to
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:11:13
business to say that he expects people to take the work of all
that seriously and to respond in a timely fashion.
I think we now need to promulgate that further by
getting out to the dogs, speaking to the heads of
service, offering to go out and do awareness sessions with their
teams.
I have a crib sheet ready for those just so you know.
So it is in train and all we can do is keep monitoring it really
carefully, reporting back and making sure the action is taken
where it's needed.
But obviously you might want to ask for officer responses as well.
Can I bring in Ben?
Yeah, thank you, it's a good question.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:11:49
I mean I just, I would echo what Bron has said, I won't repeat what she said.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:11:55
From a leadership perspective, we're on an improvement trajectory.
We take these reports very frequently now to our corporate meetings and my, as I said
to this board last time, I confirmed I was here, we should expect to see these figures
come down over time, but it does take a bit of time. There are some issues that we are
that we re dealing with and there s some areas where better communication between the management
that the team involved and internal audit would always help and that communication leads
to more sensible reporting where actions take more time. But they re kind of the need to
respond in terms of what will be done is something that we should expect to see really rapidly
We will continue to press on this until we are comfortable that both internal audit responses
are being dealt with within the timeframes as a matter of course, but fundamentally it
means that assurance to us as the leadership team improves as well.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes, David.
Just in a similar vein, I guess the other thing that comes out from here is that it
It seems to be that the grant certification work is also
not being handled properly with internal audit,
i .e. not given them enough notice and the record
keeping being quite poor in the organisation.
Can we also include that in whatever action
to try and improve the responsiveness of the executive?
David Jenkins - 0:13:23
But also, as the second point in here highlights the,
I think, probably quite appropriate reporting
line of internal audit through the finance director
to yourself.
can we change that reporting line so that the head of internal audit reports
administered to you to yourself rather than bar that route and that will be a
more appropriate route and certainly something more akin to what I've seen in
the private sector. So yes on grant conditions and bringing that in I don't
know whether Kay will have anything to say on that but that's that is my
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:13:54
expectation. On reporting management and reporting lines I'd say two things
One is we constantly keep this under review.
Part of the challenge is the number of direct reports
that senior leaders and directors in the organisation
have in keeping that to a management level.
Part of it is also the fact that we
work very closely as a senior team,
particularly the three statutory officers.
And I meet regularly with Bron anyway.
So it's not as if through me not having
my management that I'm cut out of the decision making process
is there.
But we'll keep it under review and definitely look at that as part of the current changes that we're gonna make in at the moment
across across the dredge routine
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:14:38
Can I sort of add in a point there as well which has some relevance and we're going to propose it from the next meeting
We start to introduce half an hour either at the start or the end of the meeting
Where the members meet with Bron and the external auditors as ours as well
just so that if they've got any concerns they want to escalate directly to us as a committee
they've got the opportunity to do so. So I think that will be very valuable and it's
certainly good practise to do that as well. So, yeah, we'll start that from next time.
OK, Rob. Thanks, Chair. Well, firstly I support that
arrangement to see the whites of the auditor's eyes. It's always good practise.
Page 15 and 16 in the appendix, the report, I know it's the key themes and findings summary
and then the main blockers.
I know in a summary internal audit report it's an exceptions base so it looks really
bad because you're bringing out all the sorts of the things that need improving and there
be lots of things that internal audit found that were really good but it sort of paints
quite a grim picture of certain aspects of governance and control and compliance and
I'm not suggesting for one minute that that's systemic across every bit of the organisation
But following on from what you said Ben in terms of your robust instructions for other
managers to address this, that list includes more detailed aspects of good governance control
and compliance than just being quicker off the mark to respond to internal audit.
So, I suppose from a committee point of view, we hear you say, you know, that you are taking
all these things seriously.
I just wondered whether there was something a little bit more specific that was appropriate
to address certain aspects of those key findings.
Not for me to give you a piece of work to do, but there is almost, you know, some sort
of action plan almost to try and address some of those what appeared to be quite inherent
issues obviously in certain departments not all but across all those different
Ten
key themes and finding summary areas that it's
Such a breeds quite
poorly
So the first thing to say is
We really welcome
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:17:30
reports that are critical of how we're doing things because we want to be better and
And I think you make an absolute fair comment, which
is because there isn't a corresponding table of all
the things that we do really well,
you get one side of the picture.
We'll take that away.
But equally, these are Bron's reports,
and she needs to write as she thinks.
We take her independence extremely, extremely seriously.
What I would say is that we made a series of changes
over the course of last year that we believe
address many of these issues at a corporate level.
What Bron said earlier I think is pertinent here.
It takes time for those to philtre through the organisation.
But I would expect to see those benefits coming through.
But we will, we know there are certain parts of the organisation where this culture is
more of a change and we're working specifically with those to try and improve things.
Thanks, Jed.
Thanks, Bill.
I'm not suggesting for a minute that there wasn't lots of activity around this, but I
suppose from a committee point of view it's seeing and feeling that action that you're
taking to give us assurance that there is that serious action being taken.
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:18:46
There was just one, the follow -up audit on tendered bus services, and I'm sure it's quite
complex but it just struck me that an initial audit report from August 22 that was followed
up presumably in the last six months or three months or so still found a number of recommendations
incomplete and required further action. So that's at least three and a half years probably
since the audit and then there are still issues to be dealt with. Is there a specific problem
in that service.
Ben?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:19:28
So I'll start and others can come in.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:19:29
But I think one of the challenges
in the bus tender service area has been
because the funding environment during COVID
and after COVID was extremely fluid.
And the teams were being asked to make,
to cope with a commercial bus networking in West Yorkshire
that had gone into freefall, that had lost its market overnight.
The government took time to put in emergency measures, did that.
Funding followed.
There was a great deal of pressure for funding to get to where it needed to get to.
And I think that kind of working in an emergency context has not yet settled down.
And the fact that we've been changing some of our internal control processes in the meantime
probably hasn't helped.
it is an area that we are very focused on as per my earlier comments.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:20:23
I think going back to Rob's point about the blockers to implementation,
I think now we've got those on the table and they're documented in the report.
I think it's right that we don't lose sight of them as a committee
because without those being right, this committee can't put its hands in the air
and say yes, we've got governance right, because there are lots of underpinning elements to
good governance within that. So I think it would be good if we can keep something in
there and track progress with each of those without making it into an industry, but at
least so that we can take assurance that things are heading in the right direction. So I don't
know if you could take that away and have a think about that.
Yes, Councillor Jenkins.
.
Thank you. Who would like to take that?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:21:57
So I think you make absolutely the right point. I think the two issues are slightly separate
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:22:05
in that the audit trail around eligibility cheques is part of the contracting framework
and how that's been administered and recorded.
We can take this away and cheque, but my expectation would be that that is about the documentation
of that, not that cheques were happening in the first place.
But it is definitely an issue that, rightly, internal audit have said this isn't what we
want to see, and that's been flagged up in this report.
So for me, that is something that needs addressing.
I'm with on the issue of insufficient staff resources
What we're looking at there is how we can improve the efficiency of the programmes and the effectiveness of the resources that we do have
because
The financial position of the organisation is that the answer to everything can't be more people and we need to use the people that we've got
In in in new ways in different ways we need to use
Technology to aid us as we as we can and so
So, quite often we've seen in management responses the issue of, well, if I have more people
this will be easier.
I'm not always convinced that that is the right answer and therefore we don't always
jump to that as the solution.
Joe.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:23:18
Thank you, Chair.
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 0:23:21
I think just to support that and to try and put the perspective of the person who is coming
from the other end of the telescope, that's why I wanted to make sure I was here with
today and in in relation to the digital programme as an example it was it was me
in my own area that commissioned that all day because of what I needed to
learn as part of a project that I'd taken over the results of that have
driven action I think part of the learning for me has been some of the
responses to there have just been
Too quick because because of this because I took it so seriously
People were will fix this really quickly and will will just do this. I've turned that into a three -stage plan
One is yes, of course, there are immediate actions that need to be addressed which is ongoing and they're very quick. There are some
medium term actions of which have
I've spoken to the chair about and we'll come back with a report that take a little bit longer because they're fundamental
They're about they're about addressing structure competence
Capability maybe making some furthermore
strategic organisational changes and the rather than some individual things that obviously can't be shared and wouldn't be shared
Publicly in terms of how we actually manage performance
So I just wanted to try and reassure you
That it is being taken seriously, but it is taking time and we're probably unrealistic about sometimes how quickly
We're going to get things done and that's that's that's about
Even my expectation against people who work in my team and it's just about a flow through
Just to try and help to give another example from the opposite end of the spectrum
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:25:13
Thank You council Jenkins
So could have a report in six months maybe
Would that help?
David Jenkins - 0:25:24
Absolutely, and I already put some dates to the chair about when we can do that, probably
earlier than that.
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 0:25:30
Councillor Daycare.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:25:37
So yes, I know everything everybody said about the concern that you have when you read the
papers about management responses and so on, and I think I said on the last meeting only
time will tell when we get a year down the line and whether we're still having the same
and getting those responses. I just wanted to ask about the adult skills which I think
are just a real, have historically been a real problem with things like fraud and so
on and just take up so much time and link to the grants and I just wanted to ask whether
there's any indication yet as to when you get deeper devolution whether some of that
grant reporting on those and whether some of the ability to control and determine how
you commission all of that work is going to make it easier for the authority to manage
all of that instead of having this great very complex landscape.
Thank you. I'd like to take that one.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:26:53
I'm happy to have a go. I think you point out what appears to be a quite systemic issue
in that sector. I would like to say that as we – as the combined authority's role
in the sector becomes clearer to providers and hence the standards that we require from
those providers becomes clearer, the system begins, the market begins to respond as we
would expect it to. But I can't guarantee that. The team are doing a lot to try and
talk to the provider market and make it clear the standards that we accept. But it is a
sector that has seen practises that I think you shouldn't be proud of. And so we are,
you know, we'll deal with that as the best we can. So I don't think I can offer any guarantees,
but I'm hoping that the things I've said will come to pass and things will improve.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:27:50
So just following up on that point, how much of the requirement for good practise can be
built into contracts and, you know, sort of mitigated the risk of underperformance?
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:28:08
So, the devolution is kind of the input part of it, and that will change – well, it will
change the input and how we are able to, I guess, get the money out of there.
As Ben said, there are systemic issues across some of the industry that is in there, and
what we see here is not unusual.
You would see across any kind of MSA with devolved funding that is dealing with this.
We are strong on the contract management, and actually what you see here is a result
of a strong environment that is picking that up.
The referrals to Bron's team actually from the skills have gone up significantly because
of the team are doing that.
So that does consequently probably give us a picture, but I think it kind of talks to
the very strong contract management that is there.
Of course, if we have continued failures with a provider, we do have opportunities to think
about whether that is a provider that we want to continue contracting with in the future
around that. So I guess this is one area where there is a strong performance management regime
that is in there, but the consequence is you will probably see a lot of these types of
reports coming out off the back end of that.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:29:15
Thank you, but hopefully that would tail off as you start to get those better relationships
and renew contracts and things, because the outcomes would then feed into a cycle, wouldn't
they? Hopefully.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:29:30
So just to add a little bit to what Kate said there, our adult skills team when we first
got the devolved funding for adult education made a decision to put quite a strong audit
framework in place and they fund a couple of the posts in our team. So we do have a
big presence in that market here which is not the same everywhere else and I think a
lot of what's come out of the audit work and you'll see actually in this report you have
an example of an audit that we've done of a provider and we do make recommendations
for the provider to improve their systems of control and reporting etc. We also then
subsequently make a report to our internal adult skills team to say this is where you
could strengthen your funding rules, this is where you could make your contract stronger
and I think what we've seen over the period of the three years that we've been doing this
is our contracts are much better than they were.
We are the leader in this field amongst the other CAs
who come to us for best practise and how
we've managed to do this.
But we did it because that team took a good decision
to invest in assurance.
So I'm absolutely making a case here for good assurance
gets good outcomes.
And I think that is to your point, Chair,
about we continually press to make the procurement
process, the contracting process and then the performance management process stronger
and that is why we are managing providers out that we do not want to work with on the
basis of what we found. Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. Councillor
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:31:02
De Koo. Yes, sorry, I just wanted to follow up I
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:31:05
suppose on the other part of the question which was about whether further devolution
is going to actually assist in the overall number of, because one of the other problems
you have is with all the grants that you're having to certify and whether it's going to
that process because we should be getting a large amount of money that you
spend to choose how you divvy it up and is that going to mean that the
grant work, grant certification work is going to be reduced at all because I
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:31:35
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:31:37
know in a local authority the certifications we have to do for
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:31:43
government and for yourself are a huge burden. Thanks. So in short yes because
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:31:45
evolution ultimately takes a large number of grants and puts them into one
so that puts them under a different type of regime that sits there and the MOU
which is you know freely available for anyone to see does not put an external
that is not the environment that we're going into government where they will be
asking for grant assurance in there it's a different type of environment looking
at outputs and outcomes and what we've delivered for that money there is still
for us we are the accountable body we still need to have a suitable assurance
framework in and we need to be comfortable that that money is being spent appropriately,
spent correctly and in line with the rules.
So we do need to have that balance because it is ultimately me who is responsible for
confirming to government that that is the case in there and that money has been spent
legally and lawfully for that.
So we do have to have something but yes, in terms of what you'll see around those grant
certification claims will go down in terms of the level of bronze work, so it might change
the nature of the work that internal audit does to give us assurance.
Thank you. Ben, do you want to come in?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:32:53
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:32:55
Just very rapidly, to add to Kate's comments, I think the other part of this is how male
strategic authorities, as they'll be called under the Act, are then accountable to government,
which also needs, we believe, to be a different way currently, and that is part of moving
away from that grant environment. That's not currently in the bill, it's part of some of
the Lords Amendments that have been tabled, but it's something that we are keeping a closely
watching brief on.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:33:22
Thank you. Any other questions on this agenda item?
No? Oh yes, Councillor Zafi?
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:33:33
I don't know whether it does come under this item exactly, but are the recent changes around
and mass transit going to influence how that is all audited and dealt with? And are there
going to have to be some kind of different arrangements for that because of the different
way or is it not going to be affected in terms of audit?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:33:54
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:03
I think the high level answer is no, it's not affected. What has changed is some of
work streams have changed their nature and that means that there will be
different amounts of work happening. So without looking at the audit plan, I can't
remember exactly what Bron had planned, but if she was planning to audit
some of the work streams that are no longer going to happen in the timeframe
that was previously thought, then that would have an impact. But substantively
it doesn't change the audit arrangements that we want to use as part of the
governance of the mass transit project.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:34:33
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:36
So we are working with them to look at the assurances that are required going forward.
So there will be changes to the plan. But it is a risk based plan. We would have anticipated
that anyway. Thanks. I think Ben wants to come in again.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:34:49
Just to use the opportunity to be absolutely clear with all members that the mass transit
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:34:55
project is continuing. There have been all sorts of rumours that the programme is somehow
in doubt and that is absolutely not the case.
Thank you.
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:35:03
Any further questions?
No?
Okay, thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:35:20
So if we can close out agenda item and just note that the committee have received the
reports.
Thank you.

6 Internal Audit Strategy and Charter

We will move on to agenda item 6 and that's the internal audit strategy which is presented
to committee to seek approval for the changes made to the documents and this is to reflect
the changes to the global audit standards.
So Bron did you want to talk to this one?
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:35:46
I don't have a great deal to add, we did cover this in detail at the workshop in December
to allow committee the opportunity to dig a little bit into understanding what the new
global audit standard change is meant for us as an audit function. Hopefully that was
a good session so we will have preempted quite a lot of the questions that might otherwise
have come here. But we are very happy to take any comments or feedback but hoping that the
committee is in a position to approve the charter and the strategy today.
Thanks, Ron. Yes, Rob.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:36:16
I think it looks really good, the strategy.
The question I suppose is, and you don't need to do it just yet, but, and forgive me for
being a bit technical, domain three and the relationship between the audit committee senior
management and internal audit, is there a plan for how that is going to be assessed
and reported back to us and how we might engage in that?
I know SITFA have just literally published some guidance on how organisations might do that.
That's a fairly important thing for us in the new standards.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:37:01
And you're absolutely right, and it is literally just out.
So a member of my team is looking at how we take that forward.
And again, the strategy sets out a plan for the next five years.
So the immediate stuff is taking those changes now and looking at what we do. We work very
closely with the governance team to make sure that that aligns with how we work with senior
management to get those kinds of assessments and reviews in place. So yes, it's a work
in progress.
Thanks Dave. Did you want to come in?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:37:33
Yes, just on the strengths and weaknesses assessment. I think you're saying here that
one of the strengths is a high level of internal audit recommendations are agreed, which I
think we'd all agree with, and then you go on to say and implement it. I'm not sure I've
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 0:37:48
seen much evidence of the and implemented through this committee, so I think I would
change that to a weakness, frankly. That's something that needs to be addressed, as we've
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 0:37:54
already talked about. And then just a note also in the weaknesses part you're calling
out there, the being not well positioned in the organisation, the administrative reporting
in the wrong place, as I mentioned earlier on, so those could be addressed.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:38:08
So just on those ones, that SWOT analysis was conducted quite a while ago, so I think
there's been a lot of progress over the last six months. Not as much on the implementation
of recommendations as we would like, but I would also point out that the volume of work
we're doing because of the additional resource in the team has gone up significantly. The
number of recommendations have consequently gone up quite significantly. So I think what
you're seeing is the outcome of all that work being done, the reports coming through more
quickly. We do, we really do, and we've obviously covered this already, but we really see the
implementation of recommendations as the place in which you make the improvements that are
required, and that is where audit adds the best value. So yeah, I'll take your point
about the SWOT analysis. That was the team that we're invited to go away and do that
with complete honesty.
So, but it's something that we'd have to update
over time anyway because things change quite significantly.
But your points are very valid.
So just to follow up on that,
I think one of the later items we're gonna come to
is the audit recommendation follow up.
And the sheer number of items you're following up on
that haven't been implemented and are late.
By about half of what you're doing
is following up management
who haven't implemented these issues.
I think that needs to be reflected more clearly.
you could be spending a lot more time doing what you should be doing rather than chasing
up management if things are implemented.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:39:37
Thank you Dave. Any other questions on this? Can I be clear Dave, you're not asking for
any changes, you are supportive of the documents? Yes, thank you. Okay, so can I just have a
of hands please for members approving the internal audit charter. Thank you.
Okay so we'll move on to... Sorry can we just approve the strategy? Oh sorry Bron, yes, yes,
and to approve the strategy as well can I have a show of hands for that.
Councillor Zaker. Sorry yes I thought we were talking about the strategy because
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:40:15
it was the first appendix. So I think I'd actually wanted to make the same point that
was just made which is I had a bit of a wry smile at the charter at 2 .3 when it says the
authorities internal audit function is most effective when and actually of course there
is the fourth one there which is when directorates actually respond in a timely and appropriate
the
question, I don't know if it's in the
audit or the
audit recommendations but whether that's the place to put
it or not, I don't know.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:40:51
It probably sits more in our governance framework to be
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:40:54
honest and that's the bit that changes regularly and that is
taken out through our internal governance approach.
Possibly not for the charter.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:41:09
saying we're going to approve subjects removing that or what's your proposal to
deal with that? I would prefer to leave it because it is based on the model
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:41:19
charter so the less tinkering we can do with that the better it is for us in
terms of compliance unless the committee feels strongly we need to take that out.
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 0:41:33
Sorry it would be a case of putting it in but I'm happy to defer to the
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:41:37
the suggestion that it's not the appropriate place to.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:41:44
I'd agree with that, given that we've got governance arrangements that are overarching
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 0:41:46
with the organisation, it sits more suitably there.
So I think as the document's been drafted would be appropriate, but that's a matter
for you members if you'd like to endorse and approve.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:41:59
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:42:14
So moving on to agenda item 7 and that's the

7 Audit Recommendation Follow Up

audit recommendation follow -up. So again this is an item for Bron. If you want to bring
us up to date with progress on this that would be helpful. Thank you.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:42:40
I'm sure you're all getting tired of hearing my voice now but this for me is probably the
most significant bit of the papers that we're presenting today. We've already talked I think
around a lot of the issues. What I would say is that one of the things that we do struggle
with in terms of reporting is getting that timing right so that we get updates that can
go into the papers in a timely way to come to this committee with the position as clear
as possible. It is quite a challenge when the business wants us to reflect what the
position is today when we come into this meeting, but our papers need to go in well in advance
so that they can go through a review
under clearance process.
It has caused a little bit of tension with the business
because they are obviously a month further down the line
with progressing their recommendations.
One of the things that we're trying to do
is to align this much more closely
with the Directorate Outcome Board reporting.
We're putting in very hard deadlines
for when we want responses by,
so that those, we call them the DOBs,
So the DOB reports actually reflect the position that management have given us at the end of
that month.
And the DOB reports go out, we prepare those within two days of getting those updates,
we send those DOB reports out and the cheque and challenge around all the management are
taking the action they need to do and the time scales they need to take should be happening
at those DOBs.
That's where directors should be holding their service areas, managers, heads of service,
et cetera, to account.
And that's where I would expect to see then that when we send the next chase around in the middle of we do this
Monthly it's a big part of what we do because it is where we impact
When we chase immediately after those jobs in the middle of the month
I would expect those updates to reflect those conversations and cheque and challenge sessions in the dogs
So our position should always be we're getting that next update
having gone through that process.
So actually the content of what management are saying
in those responses has been through some kind of
review process already.
So we're expecting to see this improve quite significantly
over the next few months as we've tightened the process
both from our side, from an audit side,
and from a management response side.
And the feedback we're getting is much more engaged,
albeit it's been a bit tense recently,
but it is much more engaged.
We are hoping that that then starts to be a kind of a,
almost a slicker understanding of what we're asking for means
and what the outcome of that is.
It will make its way into public papers,
it will make its way into DOB reports,
so management needs to be clear
when they're coming back with,
this is the position we're at,
this is the progress we've made,
if there are delays, this is why.
So you get a much better assurance picture of what is actually happening.
It's not just an update for the sake of an update, it's something that has been through
a process.
So I am highly hopeful that what we have going forward is something quicker and slicker,
but with better content and better quality of responses.
And again, a plea here where if we could ask for GAC support here, and just the message
to management is, we make the recommendations on the back of the audit work that we do,
the recommendations are made to address risks. It is for management to own those actions
that they give us in response to those recommendations. It is not for audit to own what management
are going to do, how quickly they do it and we do press and this comment I really want
to reflect here, the team really do press management to be realistic in the dates that
they are setting for when they can achieve the action completion by. We really do push
them to do that but we do find there's sometimes just that sense of if I say I'll do it quickly
they'll be happier with me and that is not the case. We really would rather have a realistic
picture as I'm sure would you. So the message from GAC just to say to management you own
those management actions, it's important that you take those seriously, that those job discussions
or an effective cheque and challenge process, and that when you come back to us to say a
management action is completed, please don't ask us what evidence you need to provide,
because you should be telling us, you should be coming back and saying this is the evidence
of what we've done. We will then assess that and say, yep, that is adequate, that addresses
that risk, we are content that that is sufficient, we will close that recommendation. Management
only actions. Can I end on that? No.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:47:31
Thanks, Bron. And I think I would speak on behalf of the Committee from what I've heard
from people today is that we would certainly endorse that really strong message. It's about
them owning it and closing in a timely manner as well, but a thorough manner, not rushing
it just, as you say, for the sake of it. Because my concerns over the ones – and I think
it's been reflected again in discussions this morning – it's the ones that have
been outstanding for quite a while and that is of concern.
And I've had some reassurance now from Ben about what's happening, but I think we need
to see that translate into a real difference in what's presented to this committee.
So I think the message coming from us would be yes.
We need to see ownership and we need to see consequences I suppose as well if you're not
getting that level of response that you need.
Because without that, this committee hasn't got the assurance that things are being done
and effective so yeah I'll be really keen to see that and sort of on that
note one of the ones that concerns me and has for a long time now is that
health is the health and safety so those are the risks 13 to 17 which have been
outstanding for a long time and they're still at red so I don't know if somebody
can bring us up to date on that Joe thank you chair yes I can and I think
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 0:48:51
Well, there's two things that I would like to share here.
One is the actions have been about taking the organisation
to a next level in terms of health and safety.
And I don't think that's clear in the narrative here.
And that's about the context of the larger picture.
So I want to absolutely reassure people
that there's a health and safety committee that meets and sits.
We're really clear there's people who would lead that health and safety audit.
All our health and safety obligations are being met all the time.
And that's, I lead that.
I get the statistics of how we're managing that.
I attend my audits.
Directors are involved in all of those kind of things.
And I was a little bit nervous that the report maybe gave the impression that that wasn't
happening.
It is.
The, in terms of the next stage of audits, the person who has been responsible for that
has been, had been ill for quite some time. As a result, part of the action was the person
who worked for her, that person has been retrained independently, supported that qualification
and has been stepping up into that position. I think the second thing to report is, ahead
of service for this area, as is in the process of being recruited, I'm interviewing for that
position on the 13th of February, which will also help, and all of that is around growing
in that next level of maturity to take that strategy and what the actions that come from
that strategy to take it to the next stage, so that the actions were just completely unrealistic
when there wasn't the resource or the competence probably fully within the organisation to
be able to fulfil, it's me that's probably delayed those because they're not quick responses.
We needed to do something strategic and something that was going to be sustainable to actually
fix them. I have that in hand and will happily share anything that you need to in terms of
demonstrating how and when that will happen for those specific items.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:51:03
Thanks Jo, I think Ben wants to come in on this as well.
First, just to agree and echo Joe's comments, which I won't repeat, but two things.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:51:12
Just to underline that point about where we – and this doesn't apply to the health
and safety one per se, but where we are, we need to bolster capacity and competence.
It just takes time to recruit, and we should probably be more explicit about that, where
that is happening.
where that is happening, that is particularly pertinent for some of the assets issues that
are also on this report.
But the other thing, and I kind of debated whether to raise this or not, is that sometimes
we are taking action, but it is in the form of performance management against and with
individuals that it's not often appropriate to be specific about exactly what's going
on.
We have to protect the individuals at this point in time, and we need to find a way,
I think to explain to you that you might not see what's happening but there is action being
undertaken. I just want to give assurance that we go through this as a leadership team
very regularly and we're getting into the rhythm of where directors are using their
jobs in the way that the problem is required. But she's absolutely right, this is a management
responsibility, it's not internal, it's an issue.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:52:27
Thank you. Can I also raise the question of the transport risks? Again, there's a number
there. They've been read for a while. They're overdue. And if I look at one, which is risk
33, it says internal audits awaiting confirmation evidence to close the recommendation. And
the recommendation was around reporting. So I'm just wondering why, because it does say
all incidents are reported to transport board on a monthly basis, so if they are how come
the evidence isn't there to close the concern there? So I think it's those transport ones
but that was one I particularly honed in on. So you can see an obvious problem there with
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:53:10
a responsible officer as a bus station services manager and there's been some debate about
who actually provides that evidence. And from an audit perspective, I don't mind who provides
the evidence as long as somebody does provide the evidence and I think we've had a little
bit of an issue and again where we're tightening up when we make recommendations but where
we expect the business then to own that is to be clearer in the reports who owns the
We only put job titles in these reports but we do have names in the ordered reports which
you can see in the repository so you can see that that is being done.
We're being much stronger with management being clear about that so it is owned by a
person that we can then go back to but there has been some toing and froing on this just
in terms of getting the right person to give us the evidence.
We are waiting for that so that evidence, it's probably already in to be honest since
the time in which this update was done and you will probably see that recommendation
will be closed at the next session.
Thanks Bron. Dave.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:54:21
While we're on bus station security, on item 31 and 35, it seems like internal audit is
stuck between two functions within the organisation trying to work out who is responsible for
this. Could somebody from the executive make a decision and decide who is responsible for
it?
Thank you Bron.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:54:39
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:54:42
I think that is probably for Tim to come back on, working with the physical security officer.
Tim Taylor, yes.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:54:53
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 0:54:54
If I could assist, I can't speak for the director, as director of legal and governance, but I
do know that there's work underway in this space.
you'll know that there's Martins Law that is coming through and that places specific
responsibilities on qualifying venues around security measures and the timeline for that
is April 2027 and I know that that timeline seems very far away but there's a lot of work
that needs to be put in place. I know that the officers are working with that in mind
in relation to the security measures that they are putting in place now and the discussion
So they are ongoing but they've also got their mind on the change of legislation that's upcoming
and our responsibilities in relation to that. So I don't know if that assists but that might
add an extra layer of consideration that they need to now develop.
I think the issue I think is that in this particular case internal audit is being pulled
in two directions by two different functions within the organisation trying to pull that
out and that's wasting even more of internal audits time who should be focused on not following
following up things that haven't been done and deciding who's responsible, they should
be providing assurance and looking at parts of the business that need to change.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:56:10
Ben? Agreed. So I think, shall we bring a report
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 0:56:18
to the next meeting or we can share something in between meetings with members from Tim
that just sets out the responsibilities very clearly.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:56:24
Thank you. Councillor Dacres, did you want to speak?
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:56:33
It wasn't on that, it was on the business continuity. So it's obviously absolutely
crucial because it's central to the whole of the organisation and it could happen for
of the risks that we'll be discussing later. So you say, there's a series of actions which
are having to take place and various documents have got to go to corporate board and some
of the dates for resolution haven't been updated yet so are you able to say when those various
policy and templates are going to the corporate board and when actually the
people are going to, directorates are going to start being able to roll out these
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:57:30
plans. Have you got an idea in mind even if it hasn't been agreed? Thank you
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 0:57:35
Chair. We have got an update from Sarah Reardon on that. So the
business continuity plan itself is going on the 11th of February so that is
moving which will hopefully you know considering whether that is approved or not look at closing
down Action 1 in terms of there.
There is also quite a lot of work that's taken on the action plans for it which would look
to close recommendations, so 6 and 7 they're kind of the original reports on there for
it and then there will be some work that needs to happen around specific plans across the
organisation which is expected to be completed by June.
So there is work going on, some of those time trails have slipped but there is a significant
programme of work happening between now and the end of June looking to address those recommendations.
Councillor Goldson and then Jo.
Thank you, Chair.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:58:32
Cllr Stewart Golton Leeds City Council - 0:58:34
I'm not sure if this is something that gets taken up on the risk item.
But on the issue of business continuity, I was aware that most of the attention that
we have in business continuity is around making sure that the policies and processes are in
place for processes to work.
Whereas we had an example earlier around health and safety whereby where we're going through
a process of change, the lack of managerial capacity can have a real impact on achieving
that. And I know we've recently had an issue in
Leeds City Council in terms of when we had very senior members of children's services
all on long term sick and that led to a crisis of being seen to be covering legislative reporting
lines. So I'm just wondering where that HR business
the capacity to drive change is addressed in internal audit or is it something that
would be covered under our risk element, because it's obviously had an impact for us in terms
of audit achieving what it wants to achieve, because the capacity hasn't been there with
the manager that was driving that change.
Thank you, Kate.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 0:59:55
I think it sits under risk ultimately within that.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 0:59:58
So there are two bits in there, which is there is some work
that we have all done as part of workforce planning in Joes,
which is around looking at single points of failure
across the organisation so that we understand where
those single points of failure are.
Sometimes that would be about people low down
in the organisation where they do a role which only one person
can do.
And we have to understand and making sure
that if they're not there, for example,
there is a set of process notes that somebody could pick up
and just follow that role through.
then at the more senior level, for example at statutory officer level, we have to have arrangements in place.
So if, for example, I was run over outside later today, there is deputies that step up into that role.
While I was not in the business, the same around Ben, the same around Nicky.
So we are required where there is legislative roles to have those and those are picked up through risk.
Cllr Stewart Golton Leeds City Council - 1:00:52
With the permission of chair, I think the point that I was making was not that on paper
we had names to cover legislative reporting lines, it was more about if that person is
in charge of a direction of change in the organisation and then they're not there, how
do we replace that capacity as opposed to just dispersing their individual responsibilities
is in their job description to people below them.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:01:22
So I think Councillor Gorton, it's a great point.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:01:24
And that is a significant leadership management
challenge.
And I think I don't have evidence
to support this particularly.
But I would say that some of the conversation we've just
had about the stillness of response
to some of the two audit recommendations in transport
services has been caused by exactly that issue. What I would say is that we've been through
a process of ensuring that we have the leadership structure in place and that as Kate says,
that we have those standing arrangements when needed. We've also brought in and subdivided
functions where there is a particular transformation underway, bus franchise has been the most
being the most obvious one. So we take steps where we can. There's then a separate issue
of how that informs our resilience and contingency plans. But it is a, we run a close -knit leadership
team in this organisation. We communicate very clearly about shared goals and ensuring
that we are covering areas where there is, where there are gaps, but it remains a challenge.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:02:41
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:02:44
So thank you chair I was it was Kate picked up a point for me around the resource planning
and and I
That that is something that we've put a huge amount more emphasis on more recently. I
Do think actually
Having that and making sure that we can actually still continue to develop those people in advance is important and helps try and mitigate risk
For that I think it is it does drop into risk
That's how it tends to be reported and come through to us.
Yes, a challenge, but we've got some steps in place and we're maturing as we go through
the process.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:03:25
Thank you.
If I can just make one point, it's on point 3 .2 on the cover paper.
It says it would be particularly helpful to see updates that clearly address the specific
recommendations and risks to give the required level of assurance. I was slightly concerned
about the word particularly helpful, I think it's essential and I think unless we start
using the right words it's very hard to reinforce strong messages across the organisation and
that is what we'd expect to see. So yeah, I just sort of urge some thought around that
just so we get the momentum behind the changes that we were wanting to see.
Councillor Daycare, sorry.
Thanks, Chair.
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 1:04:15
Sorry, it was a delayed reaction to Kate's previous answer about the time scale for the
business continuity.
So I suppose I just wanted to say that you say there's been slippage, but there really
can't be any more slippage because the disaster won't wait for us to absorb it.
So it's just that point really.
Thank you.
Ben, did you want to come in?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:04:35
I think the month has passed.
OK.
Any other questions?
Yes, Dave.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:04:43
I just wanted to raise in relation to, I think,
items 93 and 94 on page 37.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:04:53
This is in the Tended Bus Services for Natural Control.
They're both red.
There seems to be some sort of model that we presumably
bought from Deloitte that doesn't seem to be working and then we're talking about a
different model to replace that.
Just wanted to understand whether there's something we've paid for and bought from Deloitte
that's not working, we should be doing something about that?
Yeah, Bron.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:05:17
So I don't think it's the model that's not working.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:05:20
I think it's been tested and I think the team are trying to implement it now.
I think it's just taken quite a significant amount of time to get to the point where they
have tested and have got to the position where they are able to start using the model.
This is an area that has been ongoing, I think as Rob has already pointed out, has been ongoing
for quite a significant amount of time.
And we are currently doing some additional work around another area that uses the same
So we've got a report coming to the next committee on B -CIP, which covers the Mayors'
fairs.
And that piece of work has identified some of the same issues.
So the team are being encouraged to use the model sooner rather than later, and to make
sure that some of the other changes that we suggested when we originally did this piece
of work are considered more carefully.
So for example, where the teams are cited, what their oversight is and how the competence
and capability of those teams are managed and under QAID.
So there is quite a lot going on in this space and I'm sure Tim will come back to talk about
this at a future meeting.
Great.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:06:42
And I think it's probably fair to say that this is an area that will change under franchising
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:06:49
in terms of how we have to administer those payments and actually the mechanism in which
we're doing that. So we are looking at the arrangements and where they sit between the
current team and finance at the moment. So it's something that will be looked at to make
sure that we are super ready for 1st of April 27.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:07:08
Thank you. Any other questions? Dave.
So, just one last one, just for clarity and simplicity, in terms of the categorization
in this paper.
Earlier on in the progress report, we had three categories.
One was in progress 68, which matches here.
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:07:25
Then there was an overdue with revised date agreed, 26.
Then an overdue with no revised date agreed, 34.
I mean, obviously, numbers don't match with the timing, but here we have two different
categories.
I think it's important to understand where something is, the date has been revised, it's
overdue, it's been revised, been reaged if you like and separate that out so we're
clear about it. It's good to have where we've got concerns about the due date being achieved
but I think just to some consistency and clarity with your tracking as well would be useful.
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:07:56
So on that point and following some other feedback, we are looking at how we might measure
this and there might be an additional category going forward because it speaks absolutely
to that point. And on that subject, I was in my cover bit just going to pick up. Going
forward, would the committee find it helpful if we put the full report in the repository
but bring to this committee the reds and ambers so that it's less, there's just a volume of
stuff in here, but having full access to it in the repository allows you to still go through,
cheque the blues, come back, ask questions if there are any that you are concerned about
or you think are not getting the attention they need, just to try and make it a slightly
more absorbable and digestible report for members.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:08:45
I think that would be a good idea if we see the key ones and maybe anything that's increasing
as well. I don't know what other committee members' thoughts are on that. Ben?
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:08:58
From an officer perspective, I'm fine with that.
My request would be that the overarching cover report does show the relative numbers given
that this conversation is about wanting the balloons to increase and positive reports
to have a space otherwise we risk suffering from that negative perception that we talked
about earlier on.
Any other thoughts on that suggestion?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:09:19
Councillor Dayker?
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 1:09:23
Yes, I think I would agree with it, but we need to have access to the repository, which
at the moment is still, as I understand it, I couldn't get in and I understood from the
email we'd had that it was yet to be resolved.
Any other thoughts on that?
Can I just comment?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:09:36
Sorry, before you.
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 1:09:38
I think there is an issue with members returning consent to the conditionality of having access
to the repository, so if members could just draw their attention to those emails and if
that is pending or if it's a linkage issue we will make sure they are resolved without
delay.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:10:03
From my point of view I think seeing this entire document with 128 actions on it is
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:10:10
actually quite important to see the amount of work that has gone into this and see on
on a regular basis, part of the problem with putting all the detail somewhere else and
then only looking at the headline items, we missed that whole context of what Ron is dealing
with in terms of the sheer volume here.
And I would also say that there are probably some of the blues in here that I don't think
are blue, which we won't go into now.
So I think some of the categorization is important as well.
The point is we need to get this number down significantly, implementing all the actions
so that it's more manageable not put it into a repository somewhere where we can't see it.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:10:47
Is there a halfway house here where we get the fuller figures on the red but keep that
overarching
metrics so that we see
how many there are. I'm not sure Bron. Is this something you want to think about?
But we could continue to run like this till the end of this plan year
Bronwyn Baker, Officer (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:11:01
so that we actually get to a point where if the numbers do come down as management do sort of address that,
I'm perfectly happy to keep the report in the format that it's in.
Absolutely take your point, that's partly why we did it this way in the first instance,
but we could consider it again in the new plan year and see how we're doing in terms of total volume.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:11:30
Is that a proposal that members are comfortable with?
So we'll leave it as is for now and then come back to it and see if there's a better way
or a different way of doing it.
Yeah, okay, so we'll run with that, thank you.
Okay, so any more questions on that paper?
No, so I think coming out of that we'll have a paper on transport to come back to the next
meeting.
So we'll make sure that's on the agenda for next time.
And on that, if we can just make a note that the committee has received the update on that
Thank you.

8 External Audit Report

That moves us on to agenda item 8 which is the external audit update from Mazars and
this again is for note.
So who's, Alastair?
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, thank you chair.
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 1:12:14
So yes, this is an update report from us and for those of you who've not seen me because
I haven't been able to be at the last couple of meetings, it's nice to see the new members
who are in the committee I've not met before.
So, this report just updates you on the progress we've made since the last meeting on our external
audit and as Nicola will have advised at the last meeting for the audit of the accounts,
we're doing the minimum procedures to give a disclaimer opinion consistent with previous
years, but we have tried to do further procedures this year to start to assist in that rebuilding
of assurance piece over the future years, we had intended, for example, to look at the
new accounting standard on lease accounting.
As the report touches on, that's been a bit more difficult than we'd intended and hoped
for and Kate would have intended and hoped for, because there have been some errors identified
in the draught accounts that Kate's team have identified and are working through and have
proposed amendments to.
So, we have been working closely with the finance team colleagues to discuss those issues,
understand them, work through the implications of those and that work is, I think it's fair
to say it's ongoing.
It's at the final stages because the updated accounts will come to your next meeting in
two, three weeks in order for you to review and sign those off, in order for me to give
the audit opinion.
A couple of other things I'd just touch on.
One of the other things that's come to light from our work this year from the value for
money perspective is an identified weakness in the bank reconciliation process, which
we touch on in the update report that's operated through the past financial year.
And again, we've been engaged with the finance team to understand what the issues have been,
understand what actions have been taken in the current financial year to address those
issues going forward.
And while that won't impact on the opinion on the accounts, it does impact on our value
for money responsibilities.
And we've included in the report at the time that was drafted a risk of weakness in the
BFM arrangements relating to that.
And because we're a week or so further on, I can confirm that that is something we'll
be reporting as a significant weakness, and which probably isn't a great surprise to anyone
around the table, given the importance of the bank reconciliation as a key control in
the control environment of the organisation.
We have been fully appraised of the work that the finance team are doing to understand and
correct those issues in the current year.
We've also set out on page five of the report an update to the significant weakness we raised
in the previous years around the accounts production process and given you our clear
view and conclusion that that weakness still exists for the year of audit, the 24 -25 year.
And both of those elements and our full commentary on the value for money arrangements will be
in our report that comes to your next meeting summarising the audit activity and the audit
outcome from 2425.
I think I'll just make one further important comment, which I think is noteworthy for you,
that despite the challenges that clearly Kate's team have had in some of those being new members
of staff who have come into a situation and trying to understand and unpick issues from
previous years, some of which go back quite a few years, I understand.
Despite those challenges, it's really pleasing for me to be able to report that the relationship
I feel my team and Kate's team have built has been really productive and really constructive.
I'm very clearly of the view that the finance team are working very proactively with us
and are actively wanting us to be engaged and involved in their discussions and their
internal considerations, and they are coming to us with the issues, the solutions, questions
that they might have, wanting our understanding and our endorsement, in a really difficult
situation where there are draught accounts with issues in them and control issues being reported,
it's really positive to be able to say that that relationship has been built and is a
really strong foundation for going forward into the next audit year when we start to
look to try to rebuild that assurance. So I'll pause at that point, Chair, and happy
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:17:18
to take any questions. Thank you. Kate, did you want to speak to
any of this before we take questions? I mean, I have nothing to add. You know, I
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:17:27
I am happy to respond to that.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:17:30
Can officers please explain in plain terms what assurance the authority is unable to
Cllr Falak Ahmed - 1:17:42
give as a result of the proposed disclaim opinion for the 2024 -25 counts and what this
means for public confidence?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:17:58
I mean, Alistair will be able to speak about actually what the disclaimed opinion means.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:18:05
So, in terms of that from a legal perspective, but ultimately from Alistair's perspective,
he can only give an opinion if they have done a full level of audit work in there.
Legally, it is not fair to expect him otherwise to say that those accounts are true and fair in there.
So, disclaimed opinion.
We are not, I think it'd be fair to say, the only authority.
I was about to talk about the kind of state that is in there.
We are not the only authority in West Yorkshire
that will have a disclaimed opinion for that.
But clearly, it is a worry.
And I will not say it is a worry for me.
We have a disclaimed opinion again for that.
So it is really important for me that we continue
to work with Alistair.
and that is why we have got that relationship of openness and transparency because we need
to get back forward to that position where we have a fully audited set of accounts that
provides us with that really strong platform going forward for a public confidence, as
you're absolutely right, and also for confidence for my team that the numbers that they're
working with are, you know, absolutely solid in there.
So, Alice, you might want to talk about technicality of a disclaimer.
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 1:19:22
I will, but I will also pick up on the question was in relation to officers giving you assurance.
I am clearly not an officer of the authority. I am an independent external auditor. So there
are two parts of assurance that I will speak to. The first is my external audit assurance
on the statement of accounts and pick up that disclaimer of opinion point. So when an auditor
issues a disclaimer of opinion which is unfortunately in the sector now because of the resolution
to long -term issues that have been implemented.
That's quite common as Kate says.
What that means is I do not express an opinion on those accounts.
I don't give assurance as part of my opinion on those accounts.
Okay, so that's a very clear position.
I have done no audit work to give any assurance through my external audit opinion.
That does not mean to say that you as an authority have no assurance on those financial statements
because you have internal processes, you have internal governance processes, you have internal
control processes which all feed into your annual governance statement.
You have the processes through this committee and through the operation of this committee
which gives you assurance that the underpinning financial systems which drive those financial
statements have been operating effectively through the year.
And the conversation we've had around internal audits assurance that they give you around
the fundamental systems that drive these numbers provides you with assurance that when Kate
signs her opinion, Kate signs her statement of responsibilities which says these accounts
are materially correct.
They are true and fair.
My audit opinion on top of that says yes, that's true
I've looked at these and audited them independently
But you as a committee don't have zero assurance as a point of that and that's no different to I remember
Remember being in this committee probably a year ago or so when we had a very similar conversation
I've also had very similar conversations at other authorities who were unfortunately in the same position and
Councillor De Kanoa is from Calderdale where I am also the engagement lead and have conversations
there.
It is not that you have zero assurance.
You have zero assurance from the external auditor and that doesn't mean that you have
zero assurance on the appropriateness of the numbers that are in your financial statements.
Does that help?
Who is accountable for restoring a full audit opinion in 2025 -2026?
Cllr Falak Ahmed - 1:21:58
Is your question who is responsible?
Yeah, accountable.
Accountable.
Alastair Newall (Auditor) Mazars - 1:22:08
Well, from an organisational perspective, the appropriate financial officer is Kate,
so Kate is responsible, as her statement of responsibility says in the statement of accounts
that she's responsible for producing a statement of accounts in accordance with the financial
reporting requirements.
My responsibility is on auditing those accounts.
The piece that I've spoken to previously to this committee,
albeit with some different members, is rebuilding that assurance
from the position we find ourselves in now to a position of being able to give
a clean audit opinion on those accounts is, A, really complex,
and, B, probably quite time consuming and lengthy.
We will be having conversations with Kate.
Once we've got this year's audit out of the way in March. I'll be having conversations with Kate to understand
What are we going to do going forward? How are we going to get to that rebuilt assurance?
I can't sit here and say it will definitively be in 25 26
It might take a longer period because of the work that we will need to do to rebuild that assurance
This isn't the right time to have that detailed conversation because I don't know the level of risk that's going to be in those
accounts in order to drive the work that I need to do.
But I will be keeping you informed, we will be updating in future meetings as to where
we are with that process once I have rightly had those conversations with Kate to understand
the work and the time scale for that.
Thank you.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:23:40
Kate, can I just ask as well on the reconciliation, the work that's being done on that, because
we had the issue last year and this committee received assurances about measures that were
going to be put in place to resolve the issue. So I'm just interested to know really what's
being done now that's different and will prevent this in the future.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:24:05
I think it's important that the issue last year, which was a consolidation error in the
accounts, is slightly different to what Alistair is reporting now around the bank recs, which
which is a key control issue.
So they are slightly different in how they come.
In terms of what Asa said, we are now doing bank recs,
and we have bank recs all the way through 25, 26,
and rec for that year in there.
I wasn't in post during 24, 25, so I
can't explain to you why those weren't done in 24, 25.
And perhaps the decision that was made there,
but I can provide you assurance that we have done that work
to ensure that we have looked historically and we are now doing those going forward in
a very robust process that sits there.
In terms of the issues that we are identifying, I think there's two bits for me, which is,
as Alice just alluded to, a new team that came in.
So the majority of us came in around, probably around April, including the financial reporting
team that came in.
You know, the year end is 31st of March, so we are working with historic data that isn't
necessarily data that we had and not necessarily people in with corporate
memory, so that has brought its challenges for the team that is in there.
It is very difficult to find people with public sector accounting experience.
That is a known sector issue at the moment for that. That means we have to
bring people in and train and learn in there and as I said they're asking the
questions which is absolutely right we have bought in sit for kind of corporate
membership to ensure that people have that support as well to be able to learn
and we are looking at the training programmes that that sit behind there. You
will also notice there is the assurance there was the advisory review that I
commissioned not long after I had started looking at the process that is
in there, a series of recommendations that we are kind of following through for the 25 -26
process that are really important. We have a far more robust, we're taking effectively
a project methodology to how we are running this year -end in terms of there is an output
which is predefined in terms of the time that sits there for it with a fully scoped up team
at the moment. But as I said, some of these are going back quite historic and that can
be quite challenging to have to rework some of that information.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:26:42
Thanks chair. If we can all remember far enough back when all this was normal, when it came
David Merrett (Independent Member) - 1:26:54
to sort of approving the accounts of whatever member body it was, we took significant assurance
from external audit, although we obviously received the appropriate statement of responsibilities
from director to finance, the primary focus I think from my experience was on what the
external auditors were able to say. Given that for understandable reasons that's not
going to be possible, I suppose the owners a bit like last year is having probably greater
clarity around the assurances that Kate can provide that supports sort of supplements
or complement what internal audit might have done and an explanation about the bank record
and addressing control issues because I think if memory serves me right, Chair, we included
not exactly a caveat to your approval but acknowledging that it was partial assurance
because we weren't getting the complete picture. That's going to be the same but in the light
of the additional work that's been carried out
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:28:03
and Kate coming in, whether there can be a bit more
of a detailed explanation of the work that's been done
to supplement or enhance the assurances
that you will need to sign the accounts.
Absolutely, Kate.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:28:18
Absolutely, so I should be aware we come back together
probably just over a fortnight away for looking at that.
Kate Taylor, Director West Yorkshire Combined Authority - 1:28:25
You will get obviously Alistair's report,
So the audit completion report the draught statement of accounts as well
there is also a report that'll be coming from me and my team which will speak to that and
What we have done and what we are continuing to do and I think that's very important that is continuing to do
You're absolutely right. So I just talked about a statement of responsibilities
Your the statement of responsibilities by the interim section 73 at the time was slightly modified last year
I will consider whether I need to do that again to protect both myself and the authority in that respect as well
To do that in the same way that obviously Alistair has a disclaimed opinion as well to protect
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:29:08
Thank You council Dacre
Well, I suppose I for the benefit of anybody watching
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 1:29:17
I just want to really stress what was implicit in what you were saying Kate and what you're saying Alistair
Which is that we do have to remember that this is the value for money
the 24, 25 accounts and that financial year has come and gone and you can't just take
account of the fact that things are now being done to improve it in this financial year
and say well I'm not going to put that in the VFM, you still have to highlight it because
it was a fact at the time and I think sometimes that's overlooked by people and they think
this is terrible, this is happening, well actually it may not be or it may be well on
its way to being sorted.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:30:02
Thank you, I think that's a very important point to make, thank you. Any other comments
or questions on this? No, thank you. So we can record that the update's been noted, thank
you. And that takes us on to the final agenda item, which is gender item 9, risk management.

9 Risk Management

and again, it's that the committee to note the status of current risks and
And these are detailed in appendix 1 appendix 2 is the exempt items. So we'll consider that in closed session. So
Nick are you talking to that?
So this is the standing item the members get on a quarterly basis just a
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:30:41
strategic upset update on the combined authorities risk profile and as you know
we're going through an embedding risk management, the new framework that we've
got in place and that's embedding in process through the officers and through
the senior management team as well. There's been a rolling risk workshop
arrangement between officers and members and also the leadership team and we'll
be doing the mock -up exercises around that risk at the end of February. You'll
Also seen some comments from the recent PwC settlement
readiness review.
That emphasised the importance of getting all staff embedded
into the culture, assessing risk on whatever they're working on,
particularly projects and those matters that are high risk
and high profile for the organisation.
We will be aligned to the workshops
that we're undertaking, which my colleague Ismael is leading.
will be launching some video based training sessions as well so it's
properly accessible and it's also something that people can go back to
rather than a one -time training session. So as you'll see there's a corporate
risk profile within the reports before you today and you'll see that there's 14
risks that are identified on the corporate risk register and one of those
is medium as of this month. Eight of those are high and five are identified as very high.
Appendix D deals with the confidential appendices and those risks which we can discuss in private.
So I've got the risk manager here as well to assist with questions that members may
have on the corporate matters that can be discussed in public as he has a close liaison
with the individual directors, risk owners and responses.
So with that I am happy to take questions.
Any questions?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:32:52
Yes, Councillor.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Falak Ahmed - 1:32:54
Can the officer confirm whether the authority is currently fully complying with cyber essentials
and whether adequate resilience is in place. Should a serious cyber incident occur and can
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:33:21
that be confirmed as a clear yes or no at this point in time? So with regards to cyber it was
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:33:22
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:33:23
referred to earlier in in the meeting with regards to the work that my colleague Jay Dent is undertaking
there will be a separate meeting in relation to the whole profile of that particular work,
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 1:33:36
the risk profile and the streams that are associated to that. So given that that work
is still underway, I'm not able to answer your questions, Member, in relation to those
points, but there is going to be a separate meeting so that you can do a deep dive on
that. Is that okay?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:33:54
Any other questions? Rob?
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:34:05
I think at the last meeting we asked for job titles to be put into the risk on the page
at least because obviously from a context point of view a name doesn't mean anything
to me and I guess other committee members to see that the accountability is at the right
level.
I mean that's a minor point just to do.
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:34:27
I think so firstly apologies that that hasn't made through to these risk
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 1:34:32
Ropes reports that you've got I think absolutely that would be relevant for members so that they can properly connect the responsible
Officer rather than just a name there was another point as well
Which we're going to make amendments to this so that they appear on an a3 sheet rather than being incredibly small texts
So we'll make sure that that flows through to the next time that you see it indeed
If you want access to those we can make those amendments and send links through so that you can get those after this meeting
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:35:03
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:35:07
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:35:09
Yeah, that was another point that was technically its risk on the page
You know with all the small screens that we use something. Yeah
And I suppose the other thing which I can take offline was
So, in the attempt to get a lot of information on a page, I just wonder whether all of that
information is what the committee actually needs to serve its purpose for assurances.
So I know it's all in, you know, in the machine that is the ERM system, but I suppose it's
another conversation about exactly what we need in what format that serves our purpose
without obviously creating something new but just distilling what exists into perhaps a
different format that helps us because there's certain aspects of that detail that doesn't
really tell me dates or progress or certain assurance related type information which I
think we ought to be getting as the committee. It will be in there somewhere, I think it's
just sort of extracting it in the right way.
Can I just before I hand over to you,
I think the points that you make are materially right.
But it's also, these are points that came up
in before they arrive to you members,
we always discuss these at corporate board meetings,
which are internal board meetings.
And we're really keen to make sure
that you get the right information to firstly,
make sure you're assured that risk
is being managed correctly,
but also the pathway plan to make sure
there's a reduction in risk.
There's not always going to be a reduction in risk.
That's the reality sometimes.
This goes down to risk appetite.
But I'm really keen.
It's striking that balance, and I
think it goes back to that point about the audit report.
You want to see everything because you
want to see the lifecycle of it.
And you also need a control version as well,
so that you're not splitting data
and it getting lost as well.
So I think there's some work to do in that area, but might I hand over to Ismael just
to develop that?
If I may, Chair, and this hopefully helps.
I suppose from an audit committee perspective our focus is on being assured around the arrangements
in place, different to being a performance committee where individual directors are being
held to account for the detailed actions and their implementation.
We need to see evidence that that process is happening but not necessarily performing
that role because that's not necessarily the core role of an audit committee.
Hence why there's often the need for a different type of format of information for an audit
committee so that we have that focus on arrangements different to I assume another member body
or certainly in a management environment where directors are held to account for the activities
and the actions and the effectiveness of the controls, we just sort of need to see the,
as I say, the evidence that that happens as long as, you know, that scrutiny and challenge
is happening somewhere else, which I think probably lends itself to two different formats
of information perhaps.
Nikki Deol Assistant Director Legal, Governance & Compliance - 1:38:31
Thank you for the comments.
Very, very welcome.
In response, really, there's a couple of points I'd like to pick up from the comments made.
one is definitely in terms of providing the summary account of the progress against this
risk development plan. That's in the cover report we provide the narrative against that.
The rule report or the risk on the page report essentially enables a governance and audit
committee to establish what the current position is, where were we and where are we heading
towards, where do we want to get to essentially. And that's the key information that the audit
governance and audit committee can take to make those questions around cheque and
challenge. It's now changed in terms of what information we're presenting at
internal boards and those boards are really doing the cheque and challenge so
the internal governance function is working very well and might I add that
from a perspective of progressing, excuse me, the maturity level for risk management
Across the organisation. We're moving at that sustainable pace requested by this committee
So we're now clearly in the embedding phase. We've done the gap analysis. We've done the development and the resources
required to get to where we want to be we're just about finishing the rollout with the workshops and
Training material in terms of how we apply the new framework
but we're now getting to the stage where there's going to be an individual risk
management plan per directorate that addresses all of their risks on the four
levels of the risk register. So we've got the corporate directorate programme
project, what we have on the corporate risk register, some of these risks are
very visible risks only, they're not for managing risks and we're looking at
changing that as we go forward into risks that need managing as opposed to
visibility risk. One of the things we are looking to do is as part of the development plan is how do we provide reporting
against the organisational health taking into account
finance as well as
performance and risk combined so at some iteration in the next two quarters
I would say you'll have that dashboard to be able to see right this gives us exactly what we need and we can do a
bit more cheque and challenge
But we are on the journey together
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:40:56
Thank you and I think it's important to note that when this was brought in we did agree
there'd be an embedding phase, so I think we need to let that happen and learn from
that as a committee as they will learn from it internally as well. So Rob did you want
to come back?
Yeah thanks Chet, I mean it's a huge thing that is being implemented and absolutely taking
time. I suppose from my perspective, having the machinery of risk management is great.
In a couple of quarters time or however long it is appropriate, my attention comes away
from you and actually down that end and says right, you've got all this now, so what difference
is it making, what decisions is this driving, what priorities are changing because we've
we've got this risk system, what accountabilities are being enhanced because we've got this
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:41:56
risk system. So it's that I think we need to, I would like to flag up for the committee
in two, three meetings or whatever to have a sample director to come in and present the
so what. We've got the what in terms of all the process. I think from my point of view
I'd like to understand that so what difference is it making now we've got this sophisticated
risk process?
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:42:21
I think we have to be careful about where the boundaries of the committee's focus lies
well though because the committee is about ensuring the governance processes are working
so we need to have that in mind.
I know there's a link to what you've just said and I think I've talked with Bron about
it, about getting that visibility about how things are working in the background, how
the mechanics of this are working because that's what we need assurance on.
The output of that will be that actions need to be taken within the organisation and I
think that's probably where we're falling down slightly that we don't necessarily see
how those cogs are working in the background to end up with the results that we're seeing
at this committee.
So that's why I'd like a bit more development.
If I may, Chair, I think again from experience to understand that the arrangements are working,
Rob Winter (Independent Member) - 1:43:15
you need to see the product and outcome of them, then it gives us evidence that the risk
management process is having the desired effect. It's not for us to challenge whether it's
the right actions or the right dates or anything like that, but actually seeing and feeling
through the deep dive type scenario exemplifies the arrangements that are in place. So I'm
saying that for every meeting there's an hour of dissecting somebody's approach to risk
but periodically understanding the accountabilities and seeing that it's making a difference otherwise
it's just risk theatre rather than actually having an organisational impact.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:43:57
I think you make a really good point. At the moment a lot of the discussions are around
Jo Dent Assistant Director People & Transformation - 1:44:03
process and essentially this is what the governance committee is charged with, is sort of exercising
that questioning of the process but with time as this embeds we will get to a point where
we can bring back a storey effectively of saying this was a project, this is where it started,
this is the journey that it went through and these were the lessons learned. I'd say it's
too early at this moment in time but there will come a point and I think I said at the
last committee that it will take at least 12 months to properly have a pathway of the
journey of risk that's been undertaken and for us as an organisation it's important for
us to recognise that that might be a bit rocky in the beginning and we might have some lessons
ourselves learn through that process but we're keen to make sure that we as senior management
and officers who are implementing projects are bedded into that but equally we're accountable
to show you where it worked and where it didn't.
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:45:07
Yeah just to add to what Nicky said which I agree with, the bit I'm struggling with
here is this already happened to such a degree
within our corporate structures that we can tell some
of this storey right now.
And so we can exemplify things pretty quickly.
But what is quite rare is an example
where a risk appears that a high risk appears
that we weren't prepared for and that we then
need to put in place a pattern of action
that then mitigates that risk over time.
that these things are much more dynamically managed.
But we'll take away to give you some examples,
because it's not that I'm assured.
I watched a risk process in operation,
and I know that we look at these risks and we review them,
and we are checking that relevant directors and risk
owners are dealing with these issues.
Doesn't necessarily change their risk rating,
but it is all part of doing it within a control framework
that were explicit about all the risks to the organisation's delivery. But let us take
away how we might do something faster if we can.
Thank you. Councillor Zafiaka.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:46:15
So I agree that at the workshop I think that was one of the stated requests, wasn't it,
that we had a worked example to come back to see how the authority actually went through
Cllr Silvia Dacre (Calderdale Council) - 1:46:24
it. But I suppose I differ from Robin that I actually want the plans on a page with that
amount of detail because without that, and it is only on a page, I wouldn't feel that
over time I could fully understand what was happening and what had been done and what
changed and whether the process was therefore working and I think it is always that compromise
between trying to see it as a governance and audit committee and not get too stuck in the
detail but at the same time having enough detail to understand how things are actually
working. So I felt that that was right and I understand that there's an awful lot on
some of those pages but I also think that that's because there's an awful lot of things
that have to be considered and there's no getting round that. I just can't see it very
well.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:47:19
I mean maybe the answer here is to leave the reporting structure as it currently is for
Ben Still, Chief Executive (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) - 1:47:26
a period of time because actually part of what Rob might want will be evidenced by how
risk report has changed in successive quarters and that might be, and it will be the officer
narrative on top of that that explains what was going on, might help bring that to life.
So that will be my suggestion.
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:47:42
Okay. Yes, I think we're all broadly comfortable with that and the agreement just needs to
bed in a bit as it is and we can note all of these comments and then we won't lose them
when we come back to the conversation at a later point in time or a review of it.
Any other queries over that before we move to the closed session?
No?
Can we move to closed session for Appendix 2, please?

9 Risk Management

Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:48:12
Debbie Simpson, Chair (Independent Member) - 1:48:29
This is just to make a note that the committee has received 2 .1 and 2 .2 appendix for discussion.
So that brings us to the end of the agenda and the next meeting will be on the 19th of

For Information

February and that's where we'll be looking at the financial reports.

10 Date of Next Meeting

Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you.
I remember you were there.